Hi all
Firstly, thank you to all of you who make this community what it is, a great place to find reviews of quality products from around the world, and speak freely about our thoughts on them.
Fakes of the kind found on AliExpress and Temu have always been a difficult topic here. Originally, these posts started off as genuinely helpful comparison posts against the real thing, but increasingly have been treated as ways to share information about these knock off products. Our one rule was that you shouldn't share or ask for links or ways to find these products, but this rule is being repeatedly broken with the increasing volume of discussions around fakes.
In addition, we recently had abusive posts from a particularly difficult user that treated our allowance of legit brands like C-Tactical and the presences of the fakes as indicative of our disregard for bag manufacturers, so basically tarring them with the same brush unfairly. I am really not keen to see that comparison again.
It is now growing beyond our ability to moderate, and so we are instituting a ban on discussion of fakes.
I know this won't be popular with everyone, but this was becoming a real point of division in our community and harms our ability to host discussions and potentially work with brands on Q&As etc.
Please report these fakes and be patient as we remove them. Thank you.
Example of fakes
-Aer/Bellroy copies on AliExpress or Temu
Example of not a fake
-Ctactical
-"inspired" designs like a recent wallet incident. This will require a bit more thought and discussion.
Before commenting, please read this very clear explanation. I tried to bring across the motivations, but this is better in terms of practical guidance.
Hey guys I will try to reword this. This comment will organically be edited to brainstorm proper ruling so look for updates.
EDIT 1: While the post says "banning" we are not banning people for posting replica posts and we are not actively removing posts yet unless the number of reports is high such as spam. Unfortunately the post sounds like we made a decisions on this but we are still getting feedback. That is why the sidebar/rules has not been updated!
Not Allowed: If the product has the same label/branding as another product but it is not that product/company it is a fake. This is generally illegal in most countries. We the mods are not trademark, copyright or patent lawyers but if the branding is copied and its proven a fake we will in best effort remove these posts. In some ways we considering this an extension of scamming.
EDIT 1: We are now re-considering (as this was the case before) allowing discussions of fake products provided links to buy are not put in the posts or comments and it is a true discussion like a review or story. We will most likely add a flair for these type of posts. We will look into adding more folks to the moderator team to handle the additional reviewing (that will be a separate sticky). If we do allow replica discussions realize your post maybe removed but you can always message the moderators and explain!. Bots usually do not message moderators so I think this might work. For clarity this was the original one and only rule but we will add stronger wording.
Example of OK replica posting:
Example of BAD replica posting:
Understand if enough the community reports it as replica regardless of the above examples we will likely remove it but again you can message us. These posts will hopefully be flaired (aka tagged). This well up us in the future with auto moderation.
Realize though that if we cannot enforce this we still may go too outright ban in the future. Outright ban is a lot easier for us and is why the original post was made.
Allowed: If the product is made by another company and it just so happens it looks like it and does not copy label or branding then it is what we call "inspired" is completely fine. This includes folks making copies of their favorite bag designs and even offering to sell provided they make it clear its not the product that inspired it!
Grey Area but we will likely remove: Middleman bypass. Unbranded bag that were made in the same factory and is being advertised with links to sell as an alternative. These could be defective or extras. This area we will need help from the community on deciding.
EDIT 1: for grey area where it is like a bot or low karma user we likely remove and there is a chance this maybe automated if there are links. Again if it was a good intention post please just message the moderators and explain and we will approve it if it is reasonable.
On the topic of ManyBaggers having bias towards certain companies:
The other mods and I promise to you that ManyBaggers will always be a place where the moderators have zero agenda on helping one bag company over the other. We are and will continue to be your unbiased community (other than whatever natural bias that reddit community has as a whole). In fact /u/guyver17 can vouch that we have had a moderator that left on their own behalf because they have picked a career that could bias them. None of our moderators work for a bag company or resell content on bags.... we are not the Carryology community.
Our intent with the rules is as always to try to be nice.
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Right, they’re not knockoffs, as far as I know. Same with Tactical Geek and Viperade... I put them in the same group. Some of their designs might be derivative, but they’re all legit SEA brands in my opinion.
Read my response to the guy above. I've made the post clearer.
Sorry to pile on but the part about CTactical is still very unclear to me.
How can "Example of not a fake" be any clearer?
I have edited this post quite a bit, on the fly, and I haven't had a chance to make the edits clear as I wanted to respond to as many valid comments as possible. So that appeared after he wrote that.
They often get accused of being a Goruck clone (which they pretty much were in the early days). However they've come a long way since then. I've edited the post to be clearer but basically the aggressive commenter was treating them the same as the fakes, as indicative of an attitude here in the sub.
Full disclosure, I own a CT10 v2.
[removed]
Right
Correct.
Their v3 of their backpacks are such an improvement on their v2. The upgraded straps make it worthwhile to purchase the bag again. (have both v2 and v3 of their ct21)
The lining and internal bottle holders made these packs better that the GoRucks they were "copying" since the V2 bags. They are even better now. I have both GoRuck and Ctactical bags and use the Ctactical bags far more and would buy them ahead of GoRucks current designs even at the same price.
Good to hear. I like the straps on the CT10, which I think are the same as V3 possibly.
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CTactical is absolutely not a fake. But I am so glad OP clarified that in this list, as that was going to be my first question when I saw the title of the post. There are many obnoxious folks on this subreddit who treat them as clones because their early designs took a lot of inspiration from GoRuck. So it's great that this was a clear and specific example of something that is NOT a clone for the purposes of this rule.
OP said that CTactical is allowed, and maybe it was a comprehension or clarity issue with the post. I’ll leave my post up so the comment thread continues to make sense, but I don’t want to encourage an unnecessary mob of Ctactical fanboys so I want to add this note at the beginning lmfao.
—-
Ctactical isn’t a fake and it’s one of my favorite brands to see because they are a family owned business.
Are you referring to that one guy who has questionable grammar that flips out on every Ctactical post? That is not a good reason to ban Ctactical. A good reason to ban him tbh.
Edit: Might as well ban GoRuck too then bc they just copied the same tactical backpack plan that the army uses / used in the 90s? If the implication is that Ctactical is somehow copying GoRuck?
Also is this a backpack subreddit or a brand subreddit? I’m here to own many bags, not many brands. I want to support small businesses. I want a bag that does what I need (CT10) and not whatever huge bag GoRuck is selling.
. . . I don’t think banning C Tactical is anything that’s being said here.
In fact I think OP is saying that some people compare CTac to fakes, and they (OP) don’t like that because it’s a misrepresentation of CTac
I’m hopeful that’s the case. They’ve edited the post since the original comment I believe but it’s still not clear to me? lol.
I can't tell if it was a lack of clarity on my part or a comprehension issue but C-Tactical are welcome here and I get on with the guy who runs the group buys.
IMO lack of clarity, since at least 27 people agreed with my sentiment lol - maybe worth saying something like
Examples of fake brands: dupes from aliexpress, dupes from DHgate, [insert brands here]
Not fake brands: CTactical, [whatever other brands]
Also thanks for responding! I appreciate everything you do. Happy to support the mods in any way needed, also.
I appreciate the feedback and have taken inspiration from your idea. A copy if you will.
Thanks, people don't understand we are a tiny team of two active mods who do this in our spare time.
Yeah I can imagine it gets rough being only two mods. Can you get more mods? I’m sure there are people in this community who would be down.
Also… reporting you to the mods for the comment dupe > : ( hahah
Working on it.
Understand, one of the mods started this community as a bit of a joke. It certainly isn't joke numbers now.
I think the easiest way to decide if a product is allowed or not is if it is advertised as a higher priced brand then it’s not allowed. It will be too hard to police designs with no name or a different name because even brands like decathlon seem to copy some bags.
Example of a copy but different name so in my opinion it should be okay https://ibb.co/x8MbmZHk
Not being rude or obtuse here. Legit confused, as are many others here. You mentioned that English is not your first language, which I believe is the reason to why a lot of people are confused. We have no problem reading.
English is my first language and I have lived my entire life in the UK.
I have clarified the post further and I hope this part of the conversation can come to a close, as it wasn't really the point of the post
I think it's a very British idiom I used, which didn't help matters.
I would just like to jump in here and say, as a middle aged redneck from Texas, that nothing was unclear and I am having trouble understanding why people are so confused, I really do think it's a reading comprehension issue, what you wrote is fine.
I wrote it on a train after a three day work trip so I'm willing to accept it wasn't my best work, and as someone who actually has some training in this area re. writing clear guidance I accept the feedback that I could have been clearer. I have done several edits since posting.
But yeah, I do feel a portion of people read it too quickly or were deliberately being obtuse, which was frustrating.
Test case for mods commitment to banning links to knockoffs:
https://evergoods.us/products/element-bifold-wallet
EG owner doubling down on this shit is so frustrating tbh. Like clearly you're ripping off someone else's design.
Even worse is the Cardamon Wallet owner said EG sent the factory an Arc'teryx Granville 25 to copy for their ELEMENT Weathershed 22L backpack
EG owner doubled down saying what they did is fine because Arc'teryx didn't patent the Granville 25's design
😂😂😂
not a bag so not allowed
lmao
Is CT tactical bring considered a fake product?
Not by us.
Cool. Thanks for replying
Thanks for your efforts, mods. I'd suggest adding some definition to what constitutes "fake" and "knock off" for the purposes of this sub, so that it'll be easier for first-time posters to comprehend. I think they'll be the ones who are most confused when a post gets removed.
That is a really fair point, and when I have time I will, because to me it's obvious, but I know people will rush to have test cases.
Does the obvious standard involve the country of origin, or do Asian makers have an equal claim to the "they don't have a patent and we made some improvements" argument?
They do have access to that argument, but there will be a lot of case by case situations.
Totally. In my experience, all you can do is try to draw a reasonably clear line while knowing there will be grey areas, and that's okay. If it was clear and obvious, you wouldn't have to make a rule.
My interest in this sub is more casual, so aside from knowing a few brand names I honestly couldn't say if some random ones are knock-offs or not. Crucially, I wouldn't want to make an assumption that a bag is a knock-off, which might be a disservice to a legitimate brand.
I'd also suggest that "fake" and "knock off" don't mean the same thing to a lot of people. In my mind, a fake replicates the brand (e.g. a "Rolax" watch), whereas a knock-off puts a different brand name on a replica design (which may even have come from the same factory). If that makes sense to you, I'd suggest having two separate forum rules so that you can define each one separately.
As you mentioned, you want people to be able to ask for help identifying fakes, but that's it. That seems fairly straightforward.
The knock-offs are the real challenge, because we only know something is a knock-off if we know about the original. The examples of Ali/Temu are very helpful here.
I'd hate to see posters get shamed or chased away for an understandable lack of knowledge. I'd rather provide guidance so that they can learn what they don't know.
I think this helps. Thanks for engaging constructively
https://www.reddit.com/r/ManyBaggers/s/bvjdRGjZfd
You bet. Moderating is difficult. Really, managing/leading anything where people have diverse opinions and relative anonymity is difficult. I commend the mod team's efforts.
Thank you
I was just trying to help an Asian family make a few extra bucks...
I know you're joking, but basically all of these bag makers outsource their shit to China, Vietnam or elsewhere with cheap labour.
We've learned from the tariff fiasco that it's impossible to make everything in a western nation without paying up the nose for it (and western nations don't have that production capability for things like textiles but that's another story). And consumers wouldn't like that. Imagine your $200 bag being $1000 now because Aer or Bellroy or Evergoods moved their offshore production completely to the US or Australia.
Right, I thought this sub was all about supporting small business 🤔
I thought this sub was about finding new ways to set my money on fire
I have to admit, I literally LOL’d at this comment. Almost spit my drink out through my nose. 😆
Only supporting American companies my guy.
I'm not American, and thus give exactly no shits about supporting American companies, even with this position on fakes.
Only supporting any company but American ones
Honestly, I really like the discussions and reviews of cheaper options like those on AliExpress.
I would ask that this be reconsidered.
You're welcome to ask, but most people don't see the volume of reports and complaints we get about it.
Also, cheaper options are so welcome here. Just not dupes
I do not see the volume of reports. Just wanted to add a voice so you could see the support. If those against are a large majority, so be it.
I appreciate you chiming in. I'm sure there will be a space focused on this.
That’s kind of similar to giving too much credence to multiple bad yelp/google reviews. Most people that like a product don’t take the time to comment. Catering to vocal minorities in the absence of clear ethics or moral violations is a slippery slope.
Except plenty of people do think these products are ethically or morally unsound.
And the mods do not wish the bulk of new content to be about them, nor deal with the complaints of a vocal possible minority. Plenty of people who dislike it won't engage either.
We were already on the slippery slope, and with the volume of new posts it was accelerating.
Thing is, I do get it, it's yet another community that doesn't want to discuss these items. But there's plenty of replica focused subs out there this conversation can go.
May I suggest maybe a day per week where it's allowed? Maybe just in a megathread?
I had considered this but I don't think it solves anything other than clutter.
Sure, but the clutter, the visibility, that's what both bothers people and causes more work for you and your team.
Yes, it would help, but it still pisses people off who complain to us.
They won't if it's responsibly quarantined. Cater to your audience.
I had considered this but I don't think it solves anything other than clutter.
Carryology Classified 2.0
No shit. Left that shitty group recently as this sub was much more real but this sounds like that “gOoD vIbEs” only shit from CC. Also why is MOD mentioning c-tactical in same sentence as fakes? Disingenuous
I can only hope to try to assure you we are not Carryology.
You can take a look at the sticky comment I made at the top that explains how.
The original post probably could have been made a little easier to understand but part of this is a slight jaded reaction to the onslaught we have had with bots posting links and angry people about fake/copy products.
The important thing to know is that we have multiple moderators and even on this subject we have differing ideas. We are working to come up with a solution to please as many as possible.
I hope you will reconsider classifying us as "carryology 2.0"
Wdym?
People with ethics 2.0.
People with ethics buying from companies who are charging $200 plus for a bag which didn’t cost more than $10 to $15 to make and a huge majority of those companies avoid paying the correct tax or look for ways to not honour the warranty.
Edit: for some reason it doesn’t let me reply to this comment so here is my response.
Warranty- there is none but they’re not advertising any and then looking for ways not to apply it. Many people buy for lifetime warranty and then find out some companies try and wiggle out of it.
Tax integrity- haven’t a clue, but that’s why I am happy to buy fakes because I don’t claim to be someone with great ethics just because I’m buying a $200 plus bag.
Hows the warranty & tax integrity on fakes?
Post edit: So you’re just a hypocrite then. Got it 👍
A fake is a product labeled as something it is not. Why is CTactical being picked on? What about Recycled Firefighter? Are they a fake?
It fucking isn't. The OP states it multiple times.
I didn’t mean OPs post, I meant the drama around CT.
Ask the guy who made the comparison, I will be busy using and enjoying my CT10 V2.0
I agree, this definition needs more nuance. I don't want to buy a fake bag on Aliexpress, and even copy cats aren't great if there is really no discernible difference other than they didn't go the fake route. But if I want a bag that kind of looks and functions like a Timbuk2 messenger but hits a different price point, am I asking for knock offs, fakes, or, in reality, probably just looking for cheaper messenger bags that can handle some weather.
We’re adults, and this reply is written as calm and “I’m in a meeting with the board and we’re discussing company policy changes” as possible. No emotion or accusation, just conversation and critical thinking.
What is the problem being solved for with this decision? Is it that there is material damage to the subreddit by sharing such bags in question, or is it to mitigate the friction of reports from members? I’ve only read mods reply of the second. Those facilitate two different actions.
In one reply, mods state that folks on the team aren’t copyright lawyers, etc, yet in a decision like this you’re acting as the judicial arm of such without having the due process.
Decisions like this are best brought up with the community in a vote. How it was presented here can be taken as removing the freedom of non-hateful speech. We all understand community rules, but some will take this as such without having the opportunity to contribute to the outcome.
We know what happened when nobody talked about Bruno, or ignored he who must not be named, and I genuinely believe that simply not talking about what some believe is a problem won’t make it go away. There are more effective ways to address this.
Well, thanks for writing a calm reply.
The problem is we think fakes are harming the brands we enjoy here. However we were willing to permit said posts for a time. It's now reached a point where the volume of fake posts and the repetitive nature of them was outweighing new content about legitimate brands and items, and the number of complaints was increasing with each one.
We don't have to be lawyers or need lawyer level accuracy here. We're here to try and keep this place functional and interesting. We also try to be fair, but that doesn't mean we operate with due process. We're just a bunch of guys on the internet talking about bags.
Re. voting, we don't have the capacity for it, and it would require us to have a lot more intention with how we run this community, which was started somewhat in jest by AgentOutlier because OneBag was certainly not what we were after. It could be the right answer for other disputes, but I honestly don't think it would be the right answer for this one. I'll say the discourse often got heated re. fakes and a lot of members were increasingly frustrated by it, so I can't say I agree with your description of what's happened here.
We're also not obligated to solve the problem of fakes. We're here to keep the community ticking over. That's it. That's all we do. Feel free to suggest better ways to solve this. We'll hear you out.
You were polite and you deserve a polite response back, but I think it's important to point out this isn't a court ruling, or a law case, or a company policy to be justified. This is just us, doing what we think is best for the quality of the posts on the sub, and to not turn people off by becoming overrun with problematic posts.
Makes sense.
As /u/guyver17 pointed out we do not have the capacity for raw voting aka polls and it is potentially ripe for abuse.
However I do agree our execution on this could have been better and we should not have sounded like it was a blanket no feedback from community decision. See my sticky comment on current brainstorming: https://www.reddit.com/r/ManyBaggers/comments/1khvvfp/banning_fake_products_on_manybaggers/mralz29/
In reality nothing has entirely been set yet
I mean we are on reddit so we do have to follow their policy:
In this case the entity being a brand or company.
and
I will point out that the execution of this lies with me, and the save came from u/AgentOutlier who very rapidly deployed the guidance that provided clarity.
Feel free to create a group that better suits your opinions on the matter. Yes, it’s a community here, but the community doesn’t “own” the group, take the time to moderate and grow it, or make the rules upon which it functions, and mods are under no obligation to hand that power over to anyone.
But you can always create what you think is better and moderate over that. 👍
Kind of dumb this subreddit shouldn’t have loyalty to brands and should be open to knockoffs if people can’t afford a 300$ bag they shouldnt be shunned from the community
If people can't afford a $300 bag, they can just... Buy one of the hundreds of cheaper original bags? Being cheap does not justify supporting IP theft, there are so many great affordable options out there.
Not gonna lie if a bag costs 50 bucks to make and its being sold for 500 i'm not knocking someone who finds a knock off for 200.
Solid products are one thing, price gouging to pad corporate pockets is another.
Look even between the moderators we are still trying to get consensus on replica link posting.
I have actively responded with your same reasoning to quality contributors of this sub requesting through mod mail we take care of some of the IP theft. That not everyone can afford expensive bags and that upvoting and downvoting will take care of it.
The problem is that often these replica links have bots commenting and posting.
If anyone who is not a scammer and is genuinely kind feels this way we want to know about it. ManyBaggers in its name is about many bags. I want all to feel welcome!
I kindly ask for a little patience and we will work it out together!
I understand not wanting links to be shared because it is easy for the links to be malicious but banning posts about replica bags just seems extreme
Yeah, I am totally for not sharing AE links to sketchy sellers. That's fine, people can find that sort of stuff themselves and make that decision on their own. But to not even allow discussion seems a little ass backwards.
Thank you for your feedback. I have updated the top sticky comment to reflect your concern as I think it is valid.
I have mixed feelings about it. I’ve got a couple Tao Bao Aers (a tech pouch and a toiletry bag). I don’t know if they are factory seconds or replicas and I don’t really care. The toiletry kit is almost the exact same as the Amazon basics it replaced, but with nicer fabric. Nothing about them is particularly innovative, so I don’t think Aer is getting ripped off from an IP perspective. If they didn’t put the branding on and just sold them as derivatives instead of replicas, I don’t think Aer would have a legal leg to stand on. And literally no one ever sees them so I’m not trying to flaunt an expensive purchase I didn’t actually make.
So why do I buy them at all? Because it means the seller is targeting a specific material and construction quality. If they can come close at 1/3 the price, that’s fantastic for me. I don’t give a shit about the brand itself, just the quality. I’m sure there are other equally good no name brands out there at the same price, but online shopping is absolutely awful and I don’t know how to find them. I honestly wish this sub featured more good ZZZXYL bags off of Amazon.
That all being said, without links, it’s kind of useless information. There’s 50+ sellers on taobao with Aer bags, and I’m sure the quality varies hugely. Unless people are allowed to share specific links to specific stores it does no one and actual good to know it’s out there somewhere. Without an exact link, it’s difficult to turn a post into actionable information.
I think my preference would be that replicas and links are allowed, but if that isn’t manageable from a mod perspective, then blocking replica posts makes sense.
It’s censorship.
Said no one who ever had their intellectual property stolen. These shit bag companies are stealing….period.
Someone who can’t afford to buy a 300$ bag won’t be buying one ether way so them buying a fake and wearing it is just giving the brand advertising and making them more money
Horrible take. It’s stealing. Period. Full stop.
What is lost if someone can’t afford the real bag and decides to buy a fake
Um. Just grab your boot straps and pull
Uhm people in other countries exist
Ah forgot only America has boot straps
Do you not know that in other countries yearly salary is like 2,000 usd, no matter how much they pull they will not have 300usd extra as fungible income
Original comment was a joke made quite often and not meant to be taken personally. I apologize for hitting a nerve
Morality if they knowingly buy a fake. Morality is lost.
I’m done. It’s obvious that you and I live within a different moral and ethical standard.
Just one question do you think it’s immoral to pirate a movie
Really? The use of their copyright is harmed, as if a company doesn’t vigorously defend their copyrights and patents, they run the risk of them being invalidated for lack of effort to do so.
It also harms their brand image and prestige, as fakes/knockoffs often use lower quality materials and are constructed with lower quality workmanship. Brands depend on their innovation and quality to survive in a naturally competitive market, so if someone sees you with a fake that is fraying, looks cheap, doesn’t function as it should, or any of a number of other quality and usefulness indicators, it at best dilutes the brand and its reputation, which is a big deal and has a clear victim. At worst, it drives people away from their products because they don’t know or realize that your cheap fake with the real brand’s label on it actually IS a fake. They just see you with a crappy bag carrying the label of the real brand. Brands survive by their quality and reputation for it.
You can't even convince your fellow sub members, and you can see how things are already getting in the comments.
This is a really unhelpful debate to have repeatedly every time someone posts a fake.
We are not loyal to any particular brands.
They're not shunned from the community, they can buy a cheaper bag. I'm not US based, I can't go buying every bag I take an interest in.
I know not everyone agrees with knockoff, even personally I wouldn’t buy a knockoff bag but I would buy other knockoffs like shoes Idk why the people who are anti knockoff care so much what other people buy and have to be keyboard warriors in the comments of any Alibaba post
Because some people seem to be jealous that someone has the same “brand” as them but didn’t pay as much.
Is there another subreddit for this type of discussion?
I do not think there is a subreddit for replica bags
If people want to buy fakes or real, surely we should be allowed to find and discuss the best deal for our budget?
At the end of the day it’s backpacks it’s hardly something which contains sensitive information like technology or something which can cause harm. Why can’t people recommend and discuss a $20 to $60 fake which is probably one of the best value for money options out there in that price range.
Most of the bags are made in China and Vietnam anyway, very weird to pick and choose what people can share information about.
The problem with discussing fakes is that it normalises IP theft which ultimately hurts the OG brands putting in the effort.
But if the quality, warranty, customer support etc actually matches the prices, OG brands charge then people will still buy them. Also isn’t this place a site for discussing bags, not enforcing copyright restrictions.
I personally don't think a brand deserves to lose sales to a copycat brand if they drop the ball on quality or customer service. They deserve to lose sales to other original designs.
Wild to me that a sub that celebrates product design and innovation can also sometimes contain such disregard for the work it takes to create worthwhile products.
Facilitating discussions of how to get knock-off products undermines the ability of businesses to pay salaries of people designing good products. Whether or not someone feels guilt or remorse buying a knock off is on them, but mods deciding to not let this sub be a forum for that talk is their prerogative and I think the right move.
I really appreciate your comment and probably one of the best on this thread that represents the side against fake or replica posting. And like many political policies it is a side much harder to explain than folks saying "it is censorship" and let the "community" downvote/upvote.
Without bag makers we do not have a community. While I want folks to feel comfortable exploring and sharing cost effective alternatives we also want bag makers and designers to feel welcomed as well.
That being said we are still exploring people discussing fake or replicas in a non spammy way. In some ways a fake can show how the original product is better. This will put an additional load on the moderating team if we go this path so it might not happen.
You are allowed, just no longer here any more. You were allowed for an exceedingly long time, and now the bulk of the new posts was leaning towards fakes, and generating a lot of work for us.
It’s theft. Theft is illegal and immoral. If you don’t get that then that falls fully on you.
It’s not theft lol, theft is intentionally stealing a product. You can talk about copyright laws but not theft as the product is being paid for.
Please take some time away from the internet and see if you can work on your morals. The copy cat shit bags are stealing designs and producing a product to undercut the prices of the folks they stole the designs from.
I’m here to find travel gear not morals
And if the bags were so shit then people wouldn’t buy them and we can discuss that. It seems to me like people are scared of finding out fakes for $20 to $60 are just as good for most people as the original worth $200 plus.
No.
We should be letting the brands enforce their IP if they feel it’s being broken. I don’t think subreddit rules should be proactively acting as gatekeepers - conversation about dupes and fakes are a huge part of every luxury market - purses, clothing, makeup. This is part of the fuel that keeps enthusiasm high in these spaces.
By “picking winners” (established brands in this sub), we’re engaging in a Reddit version of regulatory capture. The brands that could get in before the lockdown are safe, anything else is subject to scrutiny as a possible fake if it shares commonality or inspiration from other bag concepts.
Cool. How exactly do you expect the brands to enforce their IP on here though?
We aren't picking winners, we are picking people who put the work in to come up with the design. The brands who continue to do that will be permitted here.
We aren't looking to ban things like the EG wallet situation, we are looking to ban fake versions of things largely sold on AliExpress.
First, thanks for engaging.
My opinion is this shouldn’t be a place for enforcement at all, I’m saying. They should be protecting their IP through lawsuits at the factories where the product is being skimmed off, or the QC “failed” merch gets pulled off the line. The brands shouldn’t have any say in conversation here (not saying they do), and we shouldn’t be doing any sort of brand protectionism in the subreddit in advance of the brands caring.
I get that the idea is to reward original design, but the reality is that dupes and fakes make up the majority of the market in many developing countries, and instituting this rule kind of establishes a normative toward US-centric discussion. It’s not inherently wrong to do that, but I might not want that as a mod, especially since bag use and enthusiasm is a pretty worldwide thing.
I think the other comments referencing Carryology Classified are hitting on something real that’s happening to degrade online discussion. There’s a push toward sanitization and pro-brand messaging that is hurting the authenticity of discussion. This often turns into brands taking advantage of enthusiastic consumers. I don’t want this to become 4chan by any means, but I think voting is a good check on what the subreddit wants to be about (within reason).
We'll always engage with a good faith discussion, unless it's the millionth time the discussion is being had.
Firstly - we have no relationship with brands here and if anything we're probably a bit disliked. What I would like to see is more Q&As with designers who work for brands (this was offered once and we didn't have the capacity to make it happen which was a real shame) and I don't think that'll happen if we continue to allow fakes. A lot of brands just can't enforce their IP, and if they succeed in stopping one they won't succeed in stopping ten more. It's not that easy to do.
My counter point to that is we should celebrate non-US based brands... I'm not based in the US, and would love it to be less US centric. That is the answer rather than dupes, and it's great to see the volume of SE Asia brands we have.
Yeah I get that, and I really don't want some sanitised space either. Voting is beyond our capacity to manage, and also would require a bit more of a fundamental convo between the mods about the future of a sub that was started for a bit of a joke.
I would add that this is what they get for outsourcing manufacturing to a place that's well known to do things like this and ignore intellectual property rights and participate in state sponsored corporate espionage. The mods should really allow discussions of it but not allow links which is a good middle ground.
As someone who used this sub to look at the quality of fakes, purchased them and then went on to buy originals I find this disappointing and short sighted.
Thanks for the feedback! Honestly!
As a moderator I rarely remove post and prefer the community make consensus via downvotes or upvotes.
However we are seeing more bots particularly around fakes and unfortunately not ever one shares the same opinion as you.
If you have some ideas on how we can reach some middle ground or solution that would be awesome!
Hi,
Firstly thank you for the reply. I agree with the banning of bots or rep sellers spamming. The thing I value are side by sides compared to the original and a link to the seller where the rep came from, so I'd personally allow that. Create a tag for fakes and clear stipulation of the post quality required. Require all posts with the fake tag to require mod approval before posting and then just nuke any fake posts that don't have the tag.
Yep we are looking into your great advice!
Awesome! Let me know if I can do anything to help or support you guys.
We allowed it for a long time, and it caused us problems from the very beginning, with every post getting reported to us.
It was also increasing in volume, so the reports were increasing as well.
“Inspired” designs should absolutely be fair game for discussion and debate. But obvious knockoffs shouldn’t be on here. Maybe a thread for “is it real” to help people buying used figure out if they’re getting ripped off (this is something that /r/hockeyjerseys does)
Edit: fixed hockeyjerseys sub link
I'm not opposed, but will need to research more before committing to anything.
If CTactical is considered a fake, this is some Carryology BS. I really don’t like how it’s ‘impacting their ability to work with brands’. This should be a place to discuss all bags. For those looking for a different subreddit I would suggest r/theperfectbag.
Please read the post more carefully. I own two CT bags. I get on with the guy who runs the group buys. I've removed the guy putting up abuse about CT.
This is a place to discuss all bags, except now, fakes.
Got it. But look at most of the replies, your initial description was not clear in terms of CT which was probably the reason for most of the responses.
I think people read it quickly and misunderstood and thought we were going the way of Carryology which actively bans CT.
However, I hopefully have made it clear now, and I appreciate all the feedback.
I thought I was clear when I said it was a comparison I didn't appreciate, but this might be me being very British and not expressly clear enough.
Thanks for this! Frankly I find censorship of clearly related content reduces the quality of the information available and should only be employed in the most extreme situations, and I also have an underlying theory that the ‘fakes’ are less fake and more factory seconds that fell off a truck so to speak - but it’s also not my sub - so I suppose we just find a more open venue to talk about bags.
This is a great policy. The mental gymnastics people did to justify IP theft was wild, as if the only cost of a bag is the final manufacturing. This will be good for the subreddit.
Thanks for chiming in.
So then all the aliexpress dupes cant be verified as not dupes?
I mean if you're asking if it's legit and someone can confirm it's legit then fine.
If it's vanishingly unlikely it's legit then no.
There isn't an easy answer here but we'll probably have to lean on being a bit strict and see how it plays out.
Understood.
I am not built to be a mod and appreciate your “modding(?)”.
I understand the intent behind discouraging counterfeit products, but banning all discussion of dupes or affordable alternatives feels counterproductive. It limits accessibility and sends the message that this community is only for people who can afford high-end gear. We should be encouraging open, honest conversations that help everyone find quality products within their means—not censoring or ostracizing people for doing so.
I get your point, but the best bag I got in the last 6 months might be the £50 Osprey Daylite Totepack.
I don't really have time to mod and post otherwise I'd have done so.
Ctactical is permitted and shipping aside they're very affordable.
Tomtoc also gets posted here frequently.
I don't think your point stands.
Thank you for the detailed post and clarification. I've been lurking in this subreddit for a while and learned a ton about bad companies and things people look for in a bag.
I'm genuinely curious... I need some feedback from people about custom bags that I make. Am I able to do that if I don't share any links to the products and just ask questions?
That's good.
If you're a one man/woman band or just doing it in an organic, authentic way, post the links.
Thank you I appreciate it, I just don't want to get the banha.mer ok one of my first posts. Lol
Wish other forums and groups took a balanced view like this.
As a member of the degeneracy at r/mechanicalkeyboards since forever this is all too familiar. Although that’s a bit different when a keycap set may only ever have a single production run, and clones of that set make it available to more people but also don’t give any revenue or credit to the original designer.
Every community around a product has this problem to varying degrees.
The line is funny because the Aer Fakes look and feel like the genuine article
Love the Carryology shade
Fake as in fake Aer bags sold on alibaba? Or copy like EG bi fold wallet? They are two different things. Your post isn’t very clear to be honest.
I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse here or my post wasn't plain English enough.
Fake as in fake Aer bags, the Evergoods wallet isn't a fake because you just described it as a copy rather than a fake.
Your post is very confusing. As many others have already repeatedly mentioned. Not being obtuse, just trying to get a clarification.
What would you like clarified at this point?
Yeah, OP needs to clarify because half of the early comments is from people protesting a ban on CT.
Which I didn't even say there was one. I own two CT bags FFS.
I know, but the phrasing made it seem like they were in the same bag as fakes.
That was the accusation leveled against us, that it was all a pattern of behaviour. Unfair in my view.
Like this is my really big problem with reddit, apparently some people have a problem with seeing that they could have gotten pretty much the same bag for cheaper. Which is fair (I own an AER TP3 as well and felt the sting), but why are you stopping the whole topic from beeing discussed.
I understand banning links to counterfeit products. But why are reviews banned.
Like the moderator said NOBODY here works for a bag company and should defend. Copyright laws harm consumers in many cases and are there to stabilize profits for companies.
We're hardly talking about mega corporations here. I don't have strong feelings against piracy and I love emulation. We're talking about small to medium businesses by and by large.
It is beyond our ability to moderate this discussion and weed out legit resells from out and out replicas and fakes. It isn't just about protecting the companies, but also protecting the sub and the discussion here.
Also, not all of these bags are the same, so you're not necessarily getting the same thing cheaper. There's been reviews saying the Aer AE stuff is lower quality. I don't think people are salty about paying prices and missing the lower cost items, they're salty because they see it as IP theft.
Yes, but its also not like they are handcrafted by one person. Why should their copyright protection be our beer?
The resell point is something i totally understand, but I am not to sure if this might just make it even harder to spot the fakes. If I have no clue there are fakes sold of niche items I myself would just assume everything is genuine.
I also feel like everyone who knowingly owns fakes will not participate in a discussion in bad faith. But from what I have read in the posts to the bags I can pretty much assure you I would not be able to spot the difference, especially online.
And yeah they are probably not the same, but that is the point of the discussion here. The people want to know how close the fakes are. The chance of somethin 1/4 being the same is very slim. But maybe the trade off is worth it, or it is not like it is with a lot of counterfeit goods.
But I remember a post from a guy like yesterday who was contemplating getting the real thing, an inspired version from decathlon or a fake. This "hobby" is stupidly expensive, let him get the best deal for his money, let him make the decision.
The only reason to be salty over IP theft are that you own the IP and loose revenue or that you feel cheated, if the quality wouldnt be enough for someone they wouldnt get salty. IP Theft pretty much a victimless crime, the sale would not have happend 90% of the time and the other are minor inconveniences around the resell.
I mean if I achieved my dream of starting a brand one day I'd be pretty pissed about IP theft for other brands.
Truth be told I'd consider allowing a post that helped you distinguish a fake, but with things degenerating into "hey look what I got for less why buy the real thing" it was hard to see the sub continue that way.
The quality of the posts was getting increasingly poor as well.
This is such a grey area tbh. Tough one to police.
Yep, and CTactical is the perfect example of that. Their current lineup aren't fakes, but they still have some obviously copied components from Goruck (laptop arrangement). But as far as I recall they made their name making bags that were absolutely Goruck copies. I like that they've evolved their designs and I have no issue with others discussing them, but it's a company I don't personally want to support.
I think this is a good decision.
I used to always respond to the posts about fakes with my take on fakes, but the posts just got so frequent I gave up. I will say it here one more time...
If we are here because we like bags, we need to support bag manufacturers. We can support bag manufacturers by buying their bags, not by buying fake versions of their bags no matter how similar they are in quality.
Yes, some bags are expensive. But there are also plenty of great affordable bags. Not being able to afford a bag is not a good reason to buy a fake.
Finally, there is a big difference between brands that offer bags similar to other brands (Goruck and Tactical being the hot example) and selling a fake bag (Aliexpress "Aer"). CTactical isn't selling fake Goruck branded bags on Aliexpress, they are selling their own thing.
I think there is probably some room for discussion about where the line between "inspired by" and "clone of" is crossed, but we also need to stop pretending like a rectangular bag with zippers is the height of human creativity and intellectual property.
Well said, thanks for sharing this take.
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Use the quarterly BST thread
I see a lot of sentiment like "it's not that serious..." or "keep the design accessible for those with lesser means..." --- here's the thing: The long-term effects of enabling counterfeits is that the original/legitimate makers get squeezed out of the market, either financially or emotionally. Hopefully we can all agree that this is not an acceptable outcome.
So is someone creating a sub for rep or what ?
Fr. Lmk if you find one.
Good!
Yay censorship!
I think saying take this conversation elsewhere is not meaningful censorship.
I feel like this does not fit the theme of this sub as we are bag fans rather than brand fans. It’s fine to have rules such as “no sharing of links” but to ban it outright seems a bit heavy handed.
Also it’s hard to say that the products are fake. For example, the Aer on AE look original and could be rejected instead. In fact, if I didn’t mention that it came from AE, I am certain that even aer themselves would think it came from them. In that situation, is it really still a fake when it might be coming from Aer’s manufacturers themselves?
In that case, if someone finds it and shares information about it, it allows others to enjoy the product at a lower and more affordable price, which seems fair. As an owner of the original, I enjoyed the ones from AE that I bought for fun and found it to be as original as my original.
I know you have made the decision and what I say here won’t sway you but I hope you’ll reconsider allowing people to share their findings and experiences.
In the meantime and until that happens, I’ll be leaving this sub and finding another that fits better. Good luck!
They may not be fake, but we are not in a position to evaluate these products over and over, and we're not interested in having the bulk of the new content be around these types of items.
There was a discussion on some of the Bellroy replicas on AE and how they were basically junk. Do we policy these posts more heavily than the possibly more authentic Aer rejects? It's a moderation nightmare and generates plenty of complaints.
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First rule of the sub is no fakes or replicas permitted.
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First rule of the sub is no fakes or replicas permitted.
Do they sell all fakes on aliexpress or are there rare legit ones?
Where is ctactical located? I haven't heard of them before (newbie in bag world). I can't find the location info on their website.
No one knows for sure, if they’re fake or rejected batches but the consensus is they’re very good value for the money either way.
Vietnam they ship internationally but you will be hit with high shipping costs and maybe import tax depending on your country.
Thank you. Oh right the tariffs. I'll just window shop their kewl bags or check out goruck. Are there bags similar to goruck?
You can join their Facebook group and try pick one from a private seller in the US. If they were in the EU or USA their prices would be double what they are currently.
👏👏👏
If these fakes are not illegal by even a single country’s laws, it should be ok to post them for the sake of customers in those countries.
Cool, I'll check with all 195 countries each time someone posts.
I’m so tapped out on bags it won’t be hard to follow this rule … now 🫠
This ban seems racially charged and ignorant. What a disingenuous way to display your anti-Asian bias and agenda. Who’s to say you can’t buy a genuine product from AliExpress, Taobao, or Shopee just because they’re SE Asian websites?
May as well ban any items purchased from Amazon too. And eBay. Or FB Marketplace. Each post should come with proof of receipt or invoice from only official retailers that have been verified by the manufacturers. But you won’t instate such rules because your agenda is very clear. Shame on you.
This is an insane reach, buddy.
Well putting aside that by the UK definition I'd be classed as a (south) Asian, I'm not banning all products from AliExpress, or the others. Also Shopee hasn't come up at all. Also Ctactical is allowed (I own two of their bags), and they're SE Asian. We are talking about fakes, which proliferate on AliExpress and Temu, and the consensus is that they're fake. If it's from the Aer or Bellroy Official Store on AliExpress it can be posted all you like. But people have been posting these products knowing they're fake by and by large.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to open my AliExpress package, because I am somewhat addicted to AliExpress, and no, I am not joking in the slightest. I got several emulators and my Legion tablet from there. Love it, and the customer service is pretty good too.
So do you actually have a sensible point to make?
Fuck this sub then. Leave and block.
Let's be real. Banning this topic will do nothing to quell sales of fake goods. Have I ever bought fake bags? No. Would I consider it? Yes. Is it somehow IP theft? Not sure. Is it morally repugnant? Yes!
This kind of reminds me of whenever people talk about buying American made stuff but never do if the cheaper Chinese import is available. Talk is cheap. 95% of people vote with their wallet.
Of course, but it's not really the problem we're trying to solve here.