Is it a violation per plant? Then should we count every blade of Kentucky Bluegrass that is most DEFINITELY not native to NC and is in fact an invasive species of grass?
$75 fine per plant, average blades of grass in a 50x50 lawn with an average of 3000 blades of grass per square foot... charge them a $562 million dollar fine.
And it requires so much water to maintain and is terrible for the ecosystem. Plus the amount of cancerous chemicals that people put on these lawns to kill weeds is deplorable. With the climate crisis, these types of lawns should be outlawed.
I'd been a while, but if I remember right all kinds of front lawn style grass is non native in the US. Including 'Kentucky' bluegrass. That's from Europe and Asia.
Wait for those new rules to drop first so they have to have a second emergency landscaping meeting to admit they got it wrong in the first emergency meeting.
Do your due diligence here. I could put up a bat house on my lot, get it colonized, and then be unable to remove it per endangered species protections…and still be fined out of my home by the HOA.
the HoA can fine you for putting up bat houses, because you didn't get approval for the structure.
And they can keep fining you until you comply or they take your house through a lien+noncompliance.
And you can't legally comply if it would disturb any bats, so when your arguement that they're endangered doesn't get you out of the fines, you better hope theres not bats in there so you can take it down.
I'm in a different jurisdiction but, here, contractual obligations are unenforceable (incl. the imposition of contractual fines as a means of enforcement) if compliance would violate laws or ordinances. A HOA could fine someone for erecting a structure in violation of the agreement but they can't keep fining you for its ongoing existence when that ongoing existence is required by law.
The party in violation would still be liable for damages resulting from such behaviour if the other party can prove that such damages exist. But "garden looks unmaintained" doesn't cause any damage to the HOA. It may cause damages to a neighbour currently selling their house and lot but, from what I read about American HOAs, their members typically don't have contractual obligations towards each other, only to the HOA. (Compare that with typical HOAs where I live where such mutual obligations are the norm.)
HOA rules can't supercede any law. Federal, state, county, or city.
Problem is fighting that is like any other legal issue; requires time, money, and lawyers
I had an uncle once who escalated his own landscaping war with his HOA (in Los Angeles suburbs) by making sure his NEXT planting of native flora after the first set of fines were all species on the protected or endangered lists, so he could pre-emptively tell the HOA to fuck right off as it was literally illegal for him to mow his lawn at that point. (as I recall, he even found an endangered turtle or two to move into his pool, that he promptly stopped cleaning or chlorinating).
... this did, however, also lead to his divorce, and an eventual diagnosis of early dementia and bipolar II, and he died a few years later alone, so uh YMMV.
If you are able to get it recognized as protected native habitat by the state, that could add further protection down the road. I’m blanking on the name of the program right now but i have a neighbor outside of Charlotte whose yard has some protective status with the state. Pretty sure they are using it to tell the Historic Commission to get bent. 🤣
I think on a federal level, it's called a critical habitat and covered under the same act as the endangered species.
In Colorado, private land owners can have their property deemed a critical habitat by our state Parks and Wildlife department. Once that's done, it can't be touched. That's an eternal eff you to an HOA 🤣
The only catch to some of these systems is that once it’s in, it’s in and can’t come back out which may hurt OP’s chances to sell down the road. But if the fine print seems palatable, I love this idea.
Fuck HOAs, and I would personally enjoy having this yard (I don't live in a subdivision, and we keep talking about renativizing our lot), but the neighbors are RIGHT that it makes it harder for them to sell their houses and they're not unreasonable to care about that.
Not sure the best way to escape stupid Pleasantville yard requirements while also not screwing over the neighbors
Oh no... you mean they cant sell the house for more than they paid for it? Like litterally anything else you buy? Drive a new car off the lot and it loses most of its value.
NC HOA board member here. When you have dopey MF’ers who want to implement a rule without any due diligence, you get this situation.
They need to put an ounce of effort as OP has done to understand the definition of the words they are putting down on paper, what they entails and what that could look like. Anytime we make an update or rule change, it is reviewed, tested and fleshed out to ensure there is the least amount of ambiguity as possible including example pictures where appropriate.
This lazy nonsense from this board is leading them into trouble up to and including lawsuits.
That and a shit board like that ends up squandering a lot of the membership's monies on consultants and lawyers fees. Which often happens when clueless wannabee dictators take over the board leadership. They don't know what the fuck they're doing and think the board's money should pay to prevent their stupidity from becoming public.
This is why if you make the mistake of buying a property in an HOA you need to attend the meetings and seriously considering applying for being on the board. If you let others take the lead they'll quite often fuck it up. Take the lead yourself, and find ways to fuck it up yourself!
100%. Avoiding lawyers is something we try to do on purpose. We bundle changes where we need guidance to get it all done together if needed rather than one offs which chew up more hours.
We have and continue to be well above our reserve study savings percentage without sacrificing services, extending and avoiding dues increases for at least 3 years as well as taking on capital projects without taking away from reserves. Heck, we are making interest with CDs and money market accounts.
Because we usually can cover capital projects with planning as part of the annual budget rather than taking from the reserves and still be net positive into the reserves
I can remember many meetings where we debated words and phrasing. Whether definition, action, suggestive versus directive… We had to clean up the initial governing docs from the builder because there was too much junk in there.
Many times revisions to HOA rules must be approved not only by homeowners, but also by all lenders.
Also, if they do not enforce one rule, they cannot enforce any rules.
Why does this seem like an allegory for the state of the union right now. ‘Natives only!’ ‘Wait no, not those kind of natives!’
Good on you for bringing back native flora and fauna. You should get ahead of them and get the local news do an interest story about the one HOA that has embraced being environmentally sensitive by encouraging the return of native plantings, with you as their ‘HOA Homeowner’ they interview. Once it’s public it’ll be harder for them to back-pedal the HOA rules.
You know what, a couple of years ago I stopped cutting back the tall wildflowers at the end of the season - coneflowers, rudbeckia etc- and a) I love how they look poking up out of the snow b) birds are constantly perching on them for snacks.
Btw many native insects, bees included, overwinter in the dead stems of flowers and grasses. If you can try not to cut them down until mid spring that'd bring even more animals to your house.
Be sure to check to see if you can get clearance by the state/county for having native grasses. In parts of the Midwest, you can have native meadows for lawns which are exempt from HOA nonsense.
You need to go to that meeting with a full list of native plants that are specifically native to your region of North Carolina. You should also go around the neighborhood and make a list of all the non native plants in the neighborhood an pay special attention to the members of the board.
Have you considered joining the NC Native Plant Society? I'm sure they'd be glad for the attention. Also, if you need more plants, I know a native plants nursery in Chapel Hill with some fine offerings...
A strange pattern in this sub: all ten- or twelve-day old accounts with their first post. At least they have stopped commenting on their own posts. Still not sure what the point is, though.
Yeah, so much AI slop, I guess this one contained the perfect amount of HOA hate that nobody else seemed to have noticed it yet.
Oh well, time for me to leave Malicious Compliance. It always had a bunch of made up stories, but at least they were made up by humans who would interact with you in the comments.
The most obvious clue would be an HOA dictating native plants only. Don't get me wrong, a native plant garden is great to have but the Mid-Atlantic doesn't really have the same beautiful natives that other places do. The whole neighborhood would just look like scraggly bushes and meager wildflowers.
There was a similar post recently where someone applied for and had their yard designated by the state as a wildlife management area. Then told the Hoa to pound sand.
Fellow Durham resident here, fortunate to live in a 75 yo city neighborhood without an HOA…where I battle invasives every day that were planted by prior generations of homeowners.
Just sending you props and applause. HOA board plays stupid games, wins stupid prizes.
I read somewhere that you can get your yard classified as a wildlife habitat? You prolly know more about that, but if you are digging in for NC, that’s the way to go!
That said, when we re-did our landscaping (in Maryland) we spec'd drought-resistant species. Grasses, lamb's ear, assorted flowering annuals, and a pair of those gnarly looking pines (one japanese, can't recall the other). The end result was it ended up needing ZERO added watering. Even with the trees being in a large raised bed. Absolutely worth doing, and had the upside of requiring almost no maintenance, save for cutting back the grasses and trimming the lamb's ear that tends to grow over adjacent sidewalks.
I don't know what pokeweed is. But I had the same reaction when I saw the blackberries. Those things get everywhere and take over everything I swear to butts.
If you are not familiar, look up "Kudzu" which is overwhelming the south in some places. That shit can take down utility poles and is virtually indestructible.
We've had it in our back yard at times and I didn't find it "nasty" at all. It did get fairly tall, and yes has (poisonous to humans) berries, but . . . we coexisted easily.
Durham and surrounding counties had a major drought in 2007/2008, one of the worst in NC history, the push for water wise and native plants was in response to that. Other things were done to help take preventatives measures so we never end up in the same situation but encouraging native plants has helped eliminate excessive water usage because many native plants to this area are also drought tolerant that don’t require the watering like non native plants.
I’m by no means against non native as long as it’s not invasive and is drought tolerant. I’m trying to get rid of as much grass as I can and I don’t water it because it’s a waste. I don’t care for a manicured look either, but I agree as long as it’s healthy. Grass serves a purpose but I prefer plants and pollinators. I prefer native plants because I can keep them alive better than non native plants
The concept of HOAs is fascinating to me as a non american and life long renter.
It only makes sense if the collective sees their homes as a temporary Investment, expecting prices to rise so they can sell up and buy a more expensive investment that they happen to temporarily live in.
So many things in the US always seem to be a hustle instead of something you do to be a bit more content.
Probably way off but it does seem that way
There are covenants and restrictions that are recorded on the deed and run with the land. They are generally intended to make sure people don’t end up with “bad neighbors.” What that means depends on the HOA. The restrictions are put into place generally when a developer builds an entire development/neighborhood all at once, and then sells the deed to a piece of property with the restrictions attached. It’s great I suppose if you are worried about bad neighbors, and you like the kind of restrictions in place. But if you don’t want those constraints you should definitely avoid buying into an HOA.
If they change the rules... can you say that per previous rules your landscape did meet the standards, and you can't be forced to change your landscape everytime the HOA decides to change the rules? Or, you can do it at the expense of the HOA...
NC Native. Contact the North Carolina Wildlife Federation. Your property can be given protected status as Wildlife Habitat. That protection means the HOA can fuck right off.
I just planted seeds for pollinators (butterfly Highway)with seed from the NC Wildlife federation. You can get a pollinator garden sign if you want, too. They sent me a little certificate.
If you wanna one up them, I really a similar story about the owner contacting a preservation society and got their native ecosystem designated a protected site and the HOA could do fuck all about it because the law supersedes HOA rules.
Idk if Durham or NC has anything like that, but could be worth looking into. :)
Edit: look up your state parks and wildlife department. See if there’s any native endangered species you can plant.
Because the original purpose of an HOA was to keep out "undesirables", as the HOA defined them - early on it was by race and once that became technically illegal, HOA's gained because they could use other definitions (such as socio-economic classes) to try and accomplish the same purpose.
A few years ago, an HOA in Oklahoma tried to ban pickup trucks (not just work trucks, but a plain old F150 or Silverado) from being parked in the subdivision EVEN IN THEIR OWN DRIVEWAY and mandated they had to be inside the garage with the door closed. The courts shut that down pretty quickly, but many HOA's have rules against vehicles with signs on the side or visible tools that make them a work vehicle.
HOA's basically go back to the premise that "We (those in charge) are better than you and can tell you what to do." The problem is that most people don't have the time or money to challenge them and put them in their place, so they get by with it.
I'd report every single violation of all the HOA board members. Then sue them when they dont follow their own rules, and when they change the rules just to specifically target you.
Does North Carolina have laws about natural lawns and ecosystems maintained on your property for wildlife? You might be protected in keeping things as they are.
There was a guy in my hometown (RIP Jeff) who let his lawn grow wild for so long that the state declared it Protected Prairie. The city fines were eventually dismissed and he had to tell people to stop sending him money, 'We'll just spend it on pot!'
Canadian here. We have no HOA here as if any unwanted person on ones personal property is trespassing. Anyone trying to tell you what to do with your personal property is taking away from your personal enjoyment of personal property. Bi-laws take care of neglected properties.
As long as it's reasonably well maintained and not used as a 'disposal site' there's nothing anyone can do.
I love everything about this. I hate monoculture landscapes and ornamental flower beds. It’s all just a ploy to make money from the “keeping up with the neighbor” mentality. Let it grow and fight them tooth and nail!
A sane, responsible HoA would have sat down with OP after the first citation and come up with better language and specifications in the policies that better reflected and suited what they wanted and their intent. OP brought knowledge that would really mitigate future confusion by popping stuff down on paper. Not only that, it would likely open up options to current residents that they didn't know were available.
But from what I've heard about HoAs, they'd rather just froth at the mouth and scream.
HOAs are the lowest rung of bureaucracy… I live in a “Spanish” themed community in the Desert Southwest (USA), whatever that means. I submitted some very conservative plans to the architectural review board to remodel the entranceway of my home. They were denied because they weren’t “Spanish” enough. I put together a new proposal in the style of THE most famous Spanish architect, Antoni Gaudi. Apparently they didn’t know who that was, and also found my proposal to be humorless and a “waste of their time.”
I would’ve loved to take 150 years to remodel my home into a mini Sagrada Familia, just for the malicious compliance. Soulless, tasteless bastards.
Even if they change the rules, they can't retroactively apply them to you. You're grandfathered in until your lawn dies and you need to replace it. Unless of course the HOA is willing to fund your lawn.
Yeah. Approved list is needed here to help with communication. Maybe offer up a precedent board of photos for visual aid? Sounds like a turf grass and yellow flowers type of HOA.
Edit: downvoting me for calling out what’s clearly a bot account posting a very generic story? Great to see people have no,standards with regards to quality, dead internet theory is real.
These HOAs are nothing but little authoritarian communities ruled by idiots. This is why I would never live in one. If they want the place to look manicured then just say so.
NC HOA board member here. Send them the Durham landscape manual that basically states to plant only native, water wise plants and to eliminate as much grass as possible because it wastes water. I had to update our guidelines to remove invasive species the developer was encouraging, the Durham landscape manual shut them down real quick when I got push back on stuff.
You buy a property so you can do whatever you want on it, but then you gotta watch Karen and Kevin snooping around your trash and fine you because your property isn't living up to their expectations? :D
Define feral. I think that wild, native plants are wonderful. This is the reason I specifically said," No HOA's" when I was house hunting. I HATE the regulations and the rules you gave to follow. They dont allow for individual expression.
Also look at the exact wording used in the bylaws. Yard and Lawn are two different things. Everyone (generally) has a yard, but a yard is not necessarily a Lawn. A Lawn is generally defined as a Yard that is primarily composed of relatively short cut grass. If you don't have predominately grass, then it's not a lawn, it's just a yard with plants.
So if the bylaws say you must have a YARD using native plant species etc etc... you fit the bill to a T. By using the term Yard you can argue that they didn't intend for people to have a lawn.
There is a guy in AZ fighting this last I heard and is using this exact scenario. He changed his yard to be entirely net-zero landscaping (rocks and cacti and such). HOA was pissed off and told him he needs to plant grass (and thus spend tons of money on water to keep it green... in AZ... fuck that!). His argument is that the Bylaws say Yard in one section and Lawn in another. The only mention of Lawn is "Lawns must be mowed or cut to be within xyz range of inches" or some such wording. They do not use the words interchangeably, there is no specific requirement to HAVE a lawn, meaning a yard made up primarily of grass. Only a mention that lawns must kept within certain standards... if you have one. Just like there are rules saying cars must be kept on the driveway and not in the yard don't apply to people who don't have cars and therefore cannot be construed as a requirement that all homeowners MUST have a car. This rule about lawn maintenance is just telling people who DO have a lawn how to keep it well maintained, not that people MUST have a lawn.
I applaud your fight, and if you live in a neighborhood with its own parkway, I will help you in the fight (we just wood chipped our entire lawn due to a broken water main repair)
Now you gotta go around and report the HOA members for having non native plants.
You know...like Kentucky bluegrass and fescue and all the other gmo grasses from Lowe's.
This. That way if they grandfather in other yards, they likely have to do it with OPs as well or they are not enforcing rules evenly.
Apparently HOAs don’t need to enforce the rules evenly.
Is it a violation per plant? Then should we count every blade of Kentucky Bluegrass that is most DEFINITELY not native to NC and is in fact an invasive species of grass?
$75 fine per plant, average blades of grass in a 50x50 lawn with an average of 3000 blades of grass per square foot... charge them a $562 million dollar fine.
I know we're having fun here, but each blade of grass is definitely not an individual plant
So you're saying they'll need to get genetic testing in to accurately determine how many plants are actually in the lawn?
[deleted]
So we divide $562 million by 10 to be conservative in our estimates, comes out to a $56.2 million fine
They’ll have to collect samples and bring it on down to the HOA crime lab.
I wonder if the usual species of grass is native...
Kentucky Bluegrass, zoysia, caterpillar, St. Augustine and most others you see in manicured yards are not native.
And it requires so much water to maintain and is terrible for the ecosystem. Plus the amount of cancerous chemicals that people put on these lawns to kill weeds is deplorable. With the climate crisis, these types of lawns should be outlawed.
and if they're not cancerous, they're toxic!
Outlawned
sorry
I'd been a while, but if I remember right all kinds of front lawn style grass is non native in the US. Including 'Kentucky' bluegrass. That's from Europe and Asia.
This is the way
I'm so glad the top comment is the petty one that was in my head as I read the post!
Wait for those new rules to drop first so they have to have a second emergency landscaping meeting to admit they got it wrong in the first emergency meeting.
This is the way. Hit them with their own bullshit
If they want to continue, your next step is to find native, ENDANGERED plant species.
That way, when they come with the inevitable you can reply back, sorry, that would be utterly illegal under [relevant endangered species laws]
Then get it certified as a pollinator garden.
You guys are evil. I love it!
Do your due diligence here. I could put up a bat house on my lot, get it colonized, and then be unable to remove it per endangered species protections…and still be fined out of my home by the HOA.
Bats are native species too
the HoA can fine you for putting up bat houses, because you didn't get approval for the structure.
And they can keep fining you until you comply or they take your house through a lien+noncompliance.
And you can't legally comply if it would disturb any bats, so when your arguement that they're endangered doesn't get you out of the fines, you better hope theres not bats in there so you can take it down.
I’d confirm either a lawyer, but contracts that are against public policy are generally non-enforceable.
I'm in a different jurisdiction but, here, contractual obligations are unenforceable (incl. the imposition of contractual fines as a means of enforcement) if compliance would violate laws or ordinances. A HOA could fine someone for erecting a structure in violation of the agreement but they can't keep fining you for its ongoing existence when that ongoing existence is required by law.
The party in violation would still be liable for damages resulting from such behaviour if the other party can prove that such damages exist. But "garden looks unmaintained" doesn't cause any damage to the HOA. It may cause damages to a neighbour currently selling their house and lot but, from what I read about American HOAs, their members typically don't have contractual obligations towards each other, only to the HOA. (Compare that with typical HOAs where I live where such mutual obligations are the norm.)
Legal bat relocation exists. You gotta pay though.
The point is that being unable to remove a thing is not necessarily the same thing as the HOA not being able to fine you for having it.
Someone else made a comment that contacts that run counter to federal law are likely not enforceable so they likely couldn't legally fine you.
HOA rules can't supercede any law. Federal, state, county, or city.
Problem is fighting that is like any other legal issue; requires time, money, and lawyers
Both of you are right. Home owner could be fined. But once it hits courts it's not legally enforceable.
Fuck them HOA's take'em to court and bleed'em dry.
I know in my own HOA, the bylaws are written such that, once county, state, or federal laws are in play, the HOA must back off.
But yes, see how each individual HOA bylaws are written before pulling off any malicious compliance stunts.
You are evil! Put it in the HOA president’s yard.
This is truly the way!!!
Have dealt with this before as a contractor with buyers trying to build. It's awesome.
I had an uncle once who escalated his own landscaping war with his HOA (in Los Angeles suburbs) by making sure his NEXT planting of native flora after the first set of fines were all species on the protected or endangered lists, so he could pre-emptively tell the HOA to fuck right off as it was literally illegal for him to mow his lawn at that point. (as I recall, he even found an endangered turtle or two to move into his pool, that he promptly stopped cleaning or chlorinating).
... this did, however, also lead to his divorce, and an eventual diagnosis of early dementia and bipolar II, and he died a few years later alone, so uh YMMV.
Oooohh that’s a great play right there
OP could also apply to be a native plant habitat, which would offer some level of protection for their garden as is.
Might be worth checking if you can be held to standards imposed after the fact.
Also, F***HOA might like this one.
If you are able to get it recognized as protected native habitat by the state, that could add further protection down the road. I’m blanking on the name of the program right now but i have a neighbor outside of Charlotte whose yard has some protective status with the state. Pretty sure they are using it to tell the Historic Commission to get bent. 🤣
I think on a federal level, it's called a critical habitat and covered under the same act as the endangered species. In Colorado, private land owners can have their property deemed a critical habitat by our state Parks and Wildlife department. Once that's done, it can't be touched. That's an eternal eff you to an HOA 🤣
The only catch to some of these systems is that once it’s in, it’s in and can’t come back out which may hurt OP’s chances to sell down the road. But if the fine print seems palatable, I love this idea.
Grandfathered in!
Exactly this
op should be grandfathered in, if they change the rules after the fact
Fuck HOAs, and I would personally enjoy having this yard (I don't live in a subdivision, and we keep talking about renativizing our lot), but the neighbors are RIGHT that it makes it harder for them to sell their houses and they're not unreasonable to care about that.
Not sure the best way to escape stupid Pleasantville yard requirements while also not screwing over the neighbors
Oh no... you mean they cant sell the house for more than they paid for it? Like litterally anything else you buy? Drive a new car off the lot and it loses most of its value.
Dude. Setting aside the obvious economics of why cars and real estate are priced differently over time -
Taking joy in seeing bad things happen to people as a direct result of stupid orders they gave is what malicious compliance is all about.
Taking joy in seeing bad things happen to random bystanders just makes you sound like kind of a jerk.
r/fuckHOA would love this
Wasn’t sure if I could link it from here. Thanks.
NC HOA board member here. When you have dopey MF’ers who want to implement a rule without any due diligence, you get this situation.
They need to put an ounce of effort as OP has done to understand the definition of the words they are putting down on paper, what they entails and what that could look like. Anytime we make an update or rule change, it is reviewed, tested and fleshed out to ensure there is the least amount of ambiguity as possible including example pictures where appropriate.
This lazy nonsense from this board is leading them into trouble up to and including lawsuits.
Sorry OP you have a shit board.
That and a shit board like that ends up squandering a lot of the membership's monies on consultants and lawyers fees. Which often happens when clueless wannabee dictators take over the board leadership. They don't know what the fuck they're doing and think the board's money should pay to prevent their stupidity from becoming public.
This is why if you make the mistake of buying a property in an HOA you need to attend the meetings and seriously considering applying for being on the board. If you let others take the lead they'll quite often fuck it up. Take the lead yourself, and find ways to fuck it up yourself!
100%. Avoiding lawyers is something we try to do on purpose. We bundle changes where we need guidance to get it all done together if needed rather than one offs which chew up more hours.
We have and continue to be well above our reserve study savings percentage without sacrificing services, extending and avoiding dues increases for at least 3 years as well as taking on capital projects without taking away from reserves. Heck, we are making interest with CDs and money market accounts.
The whole point of reserves is to cover capital projects. Why avoid using them? A little extra interest isn’t worth it.
Because we usually can cover capital projects with planning as part of the annual budget rather than taking from the reserves and still be net positive into the reserves
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.” ― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I can remember many meetings where we debated words and phrasing. Whether definition, action, suggestive versus directive… We had to clean up the initial governing docs from the builder because there was too much junk in there.
https://certifiedwildlifehabitat.nwf.org/
Make it a certified habitat and really piss them off
Absolutely this, OP. Get clearance from a higher power!
This was my first thought as well.
This!!!
👍🏽 👍🏽 👍🏽 👍🏽 🫶🏽 🫶🏽. 🫶🏽
What type of grass do they have in their lawns? Is it native?
Many times revisions to HOA rules must be approved not only by homeowners, but also by all lenders. Also, if they do not enforce one rule, they cannot enforce any rules.
👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽
Why does this seem like an allegory for the state of the union right now. ‘Natives only!’ ‘Wait no, not those kind of natives!’
Good on you for bringing back native flora and fauna. You should get ahead of them and get the local news do an interest story about the one HOA that has embraced being environmentally sensitive by encouraging the return of native plantings, with you as their ‘HOA Homeowner’ they interview. Once it’s public it’ll be harder for them to back-pedal the HOA rules.
This is brilliant.
I don't have an HOA... but I seeded the property with native wildflowers that feed the birds, bees, and other critters.
In winter, I cut it down to stumps, but otherwise leave it alone.
"In winter, I cut it down to stumps"
You know what, a couple of years ago I stopped cutting back the tall wildflowers at the end of the season - coneflowers, rudbeckia etc- and a) I love how they look poking up out of the snow b) birds are constantly perching on them for snacks.
Btw many native insects, bees included, overwinter in the dead stems of flowers and grasses. If you can try not to cut them down until mid spring that'd bring even more animals to your house.
You should leave it over winter. Many insects nest in dead plant stems over winter, especially native bee species
You should leave them until late spring. Not only do the seed heads feed the birds over the winter, but certain native bees nest in the stems.
🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯
NC HOA board member here. Fuck ‘em.
The CCRs should’ve been explicit about what’s allowed and what expectations are.
And BAT BOXES! Federally protected! You can have LOTS of fun with this, you just have to decide how much you want your neighbors to hate you!
Those may be “structures” that would need HOA approval.
Be sure to check to see if you can get clearance by the state/county for having native grasses. In parts of the Midwest, you can have native meadows for lawns which are exempt from HOA nonsense.
"this isn't what they meant"
Who gives a shit what you meant, if it isn't in your bullshit rules it isn't a rule and you can shove your violation where no plants can grow
Go the extra mile and get your yard registered with the city as a native wildlife habitat/refuge so they can't do anthing.
You need to go to that meeting with a full list of native plants that are specifically native to your region of North Carolina. You should also go around the neighborhood and make a list of all the non native plants in the neighborhood an pay special attention to the members of the board.
Have you considered joining the NC Native Plant Society? I'm sure they'd be glad for the attention. Also, if you need more plants, I know a native plants nursery in Chapel Hill with some fine offerings...
Can you drop the name of the nursery?
Can you get it certified as a natural pollinator yard?
Yes, but those type of certifications don't have any legal meaning.
A strange pattern in this sub: all ten- or twelve-day old accounts with their first post. At least they have stopped commenting on their own posts. Still not sure what the point is, though.
See also from today:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/comments/1otdt1s/company_made_me_give_exact_aurora_predictions/
And yesterday:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/comments/1osn6i0/brides_mother_wanted_no_candid_shots_of_her_so_i/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/comments/1osmfak/client_wanted_me_to_use_their_exact_terminology/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/comments/1oslq67/hoa_demanded_i_remove_my_unauthorized_structure/
Post edited to follow the sub rule: no questioning the validity of a story. Just noting a pattern.
Yeah, so much AI slop, I guess this one contained the perfect amount of HOA hate that nobody else seemed to have noticed it yet.
Oh well, time for me to leave Malicious Compliance. It always had a bunch of made up stories, but at least they were made up by humans who would interact with you in the comments.
Good bye and thanks for all the
fishrage bait.The HOA posts seem to get a huge amount of traction and engagement in a short time.
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a lot more of them in the future.
The most obvious clue would be an HOA dictating native plants only. Don't get me wrong, a native plant garden is great to have but the Mid-Atlantic doesn't really have the same beautiful natives that other places do. The whole neighborhood would just look like scraggly bushes and meager wildflowers.
Never mess with a landscape architect on their own turf.
The landscaping rule only needs to say one thing: "Must be approved by Karen"
Hell, that probably goes for all the rules....
There was a similar post recently where someone applied for and had their yard designated by the state as a wildlife management area. Then told the Hoa to pound sand.
HOA are one of the dumbest things ever invented
Fellow Durham resident here, fortunate to live in a 75 yo city neighborhood without an HOA…where I battle invasives every day that were planted by prior generations of homeowners.
Just sending you props and applause. HOA board plays stupid games, wins stupid prizes.
Plant kudzu. It’s native - now.
Holy fuck that's some ULPT right there!
Only some? We are looking at mega-ULPT there! 👍
dude is only wanting to be a minor Demon.
No need to go full Satan yet.
Fuck HOAs
I read somewhere that you can get your yard classified as a wildlife habitat? You prolly know more about that, but if you are digging in for NC, that’s the way to go!
Pokeweed though, ugh, that shit's nasty.
That said, when we re-did our landscaping (in Maryland) we spec'd drought-resistant species. Grasses, lamb's ear, assorted flowering annuals, and a pair of those gnarly looking pines (one japanese, can't recall the other). The end result was it ended up needing ZERO added watering. Even with the trees being in a large raised bed. Absolutely worth doing, and had the upside of requiring almost no maintenance, save for cutting back the grasses and trimming the lamb's ear that tends to grow over adjacent sidewalks.
I don't know what pokeweed is. But I had the same reaction when I saw the blackberries. Those things get everywhere and take over everything I swear to butts.
If you are not familiar, look up "Kudzu" which is overwhelming the south in some places. That shit can take down utility poles and is virtually indestructible.
yes, pokeweed has also has berries, makes a mess.
though nowhere near as nasty as mulberry trees and the resulting bird poop everywhere.
I STAND WITH POKEWEED
We've had it in our back yard at times and I didn't find it "nasty" at all. It did get fairly tall, and yes has (poisonous to humans) berries, but . . . we coexisted easily.
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Durham and surrounding counties had a major drought in 2007/2008, one of the worst in NC history, the push for water wise and native plants was in response to that. Other things were done to help take preventatives measures so we never end up in the same situation but encouraging native plants has helped eliminate excessive water usage because many native plants to this area are also drought tolerant that don’t require the watering like non native plants.
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I’m by no means against non native as long as it’s not invasive and is drought tolerant. I’m trying to get rid of as much grass as I can and I don’t water it because it’s a waste. I don’t care for a manicured look either, but I agree as long as it’s healthy. Grass serves a purpose but I prefer plants and pollinators. I prefer native plants because I can keep them alive better than non native plants
I saw someone who got their yard declared a wildlife refuge/habitat, and the HOA couldn’t do anything about it.
Let me see if I can find it.
Pokeweed is flat out evil, I love that. Birds love it, and birds shit absolute rainbows after eating it, all over your neighbor's cars!
The concept of HOAs is fascinating to me as a non american and life long renter. It only makes sense if the collective sees their homes as a temporary Investment, expecting prices to rise so they can sell up and buy a more expensive investment that they happen to temporarily live in. So many things in the US always seem to be a hustle instead of something you do to be a bit more content. Probably way off but it does seem that way
A lot of lawn grass types are not native to North Carolina. I'm not sure how far they'll push this, but that can be an ace in your back pocket.
I thought they wanted low maintenance native plants? Sounds like they want high maintenance plants that look nice.
Love it! And curious which neighborhood you live in since I used to live in Durham (so none of this surprises me).
You are already grandfathered in tell them to pound sand, see you in court
As a European I still dont get this HOA shit. It's your home, cant you do with it what you wish?
There are covenants and restrictions that are recorded on the deed and run with the land. They are generally intended to make sure people don’t end up with “bad neighbors.” What that means depends on the HOA. The restrictions are put into place generally when a developer builds an entire development/neighborhood all at once, and then sells the deed to a piece of property with the restrictions attached. It’s great I suppose if you are worried about bad neighbors, and you like the kind of restrictions in place. But if you don’t want those constraints you should definitely avoid buying into an HOA.
If they change the rules... can you say that per previous rules your landscape did meet the standards, and you can't be forced to change your landscape everytime the HOA decides to change the rules? Or, you can do it at the expense of the HOA...
It’s a pity HOA eating triffids aren’t available.
And Audrey is booked for some off-Broadway performances...
NC Native. Contact the North Carolina Wildlife Federation. Your property can be given protected status as Wildlife Habitat. That protection means the HOA can fuck right off.
How did the new plants grow so much in 3 weeks?
Go to the emergency meetings and provide long and slow technical expertise. Slides, charts, and academic papers.
Absolutely love this.
Poison Ivy is native.
And has lovely fall color and feeds wildlife!
I dunno about looking feral, but if you want your neighbors to have nice, lush, green plants...
https://www.amazon.com/HOME-GROWN-MINT-SEEDS-PLANTING/dp/B0D73P2FFL
I just planted seeds for pollinators (butterfly Highway)with seed from the NC Wildlife federation. You can get a pollinator garden sign if you want, too. They sent me a little certificate.
https://ncwf.org/blog/seeds/
Would you be willing to come to my house? (Massachusetts)
You are my hero…I love naturescape
Screw the plants. HOAs need to be banned.
Fuck HOAs. This kind of shit is the exact reason I will never live in an HOA.
Check with the state about laws regarding native species. Some have laws that make it illegal to cut down native species once they're planted...
If you wanna one up them, I really a similar story about the owner contacting a preservation society and got their native ecosystem designated a protected site and the HOA could do fuck all about it because the law supersedes HOA rules.
Idk if Durham or NC has anything like that, but could be worth looking into. :)
Edit: look up your state parks and wildlife department. See if there’s any native endangered species you can plant.
I will still NEVER understand why anyone who believes in freedom even tolerated the idea of an HOA.
I will never buy a home in an HOA
Because the original purpose of an HOA was to keep out "undesirables", as the HOA defined them - early on it was by race and once that became technically illegal, HOA's gained because they could use other definitions (such as socio-economic classes) to try and accomplish the same purpose.
A few years ago, an HOA in Oklahoma tried to ban pickup trucks (not just work trucks, but a plain old F150 or Silverado) from being parked in the subdivision EVEN IN THEIR OWN DRIVEWAY and mandated they had to be inside the garage with the door closed. The courts shut that down pretty quickly, but many HOA's have rules against vehicles with signs on the side or visible tools that make them a work vehicle.
HOA's basically go back to the premise that "We (those in charge) are better than you and can tell you what to do." The problem is that most people don't have the time or money to challenge them and put them in their place, so they get by with it.
I expected this to end with an entire yard full of Venus flytraps
Fuck HOAs
They would hate Tucson Arizona. No manicured lawns except artificial green turf. Everything else is native plants.
I'd report every single violation of all the HOA board members. Then sue them when they dont follow their own rules, and when they change the rules just to specifically target you.
I hate HOAs with a passion.
Does North Carolina have laws about natural lawns and ecosystems maintained on your property for wildlife? You might be protected in keeping things as they are.
There was a guy in my hometown (RIP Jeff) who let his lawn grow wild for so long that the state declared it Protected Prairie. The city fines were eventually dismissed and he had to tell people to stop sending him money, 'We'll just spend it on pot!'
https://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/comments/church_of_the_holy_lawn
I'd lawyer up. First guy to the lawyer well gets the water.
Canadian here. We have no HOA here as if any unwanted person on ones personal property is trespassing. Anyone trying to tell you what to do with your personal property is taking away from your personal enjoyment of personal property. Bi-laws take care of neglected properties.
As long as it's reasonably well maintained and not used as a 'disposal site' there's nothing anyone can do.
I love everything about this. I hate monoculture landscapes and ornamental flower beds. It’s all just a ploy to make money from the “keeping up with the neighbor” mentality. Let it grow and fight them tooth and nail!
A sane, responsible HoA would have sat down with OP after the first citation and come up with better language and specifications in the policies that better reflected and suited what they wanted and their intent. OP brought knowledge that would really mitigate future confusion by popping stuff down on paper. Not only that, it would likely open up options to current residents that they didn't know were available.
But from what I've heard about HoAs, they'd rather just froth at the mouth and scream.
PLEASE post a pic!?
Man, Americans love rules and get really weird about gardens and lawns in particular.
https://durhamlandscape.info/durham-landscape/trees-and-shrubs-native-to-county-durham/
Plants native to Durham. Oops, Durham England. Plant some blackberry
What is the specific language in the HOA by-laws that requires specific landscaping standards? That is your leverage.
Also I'm in Durham and SO curious what neighborhood this is!!
HOAs are the lowest rung of bureaucracy… I live in a “Spanish” themed community in the Desert Southwest (USA), whatever that means. I submitted some very conservative plans to the architectural review board to remodel the entranceway of my home. They were denied because they weren’t “Spanish” enough. I put together a new proposal in the style of THE most famous Spanish architect, Antoni Gaudi. Apparently they didn’t know who that was, and also found my proposal to be humorless and a “waste of their time.”
I would’ve loved to take 150 years to remodel my home into a mini Sagrada Familia, just for the malicious compliance. Soulless, tasteless bastards.
This is the Way.
Imagine having to argue with someone about what you can plant in your own yard. HOA's are vile.
The malicious compliance against an HOA makes me so happy. The fact that it's truly native plants growing feral is such a bonus
u/bot-sleuth-bot
Most obvious chatgpt slop ever. I've seen like 10 variations of this exact story.
TL;DR.
Is best to have native plants.
Even if they change the rules, they can't retroactively apply them to you. You're grandfathered in until your lawn dies and you need to replace it. Unless of course the HOA is willing to fund your lawn.
Yeah. Approved list is needed here to help with communication. Maybe offer up a precedent board of photos for visual aid? Sounds like a turf grass and yellow flowers type of HOA.
Post has been removed? Just how malicious was the compliance?? 😂
jfc, these people need a life
Removed? Why?
Yeah and when they do revise it, you should be grandfathered into the original rules.
HOA is bringing down property value
r/NoLawns
Your membership to r/fucklawns has been approved
I read on Reddit, if you get bats to move into your structure, it is a protected habitat.
Build a bat box.
if I was to go homeless or HOA area, I'd go homeless
AI slop that should be removed
Edit: downvoting me for calling out what’s clearly a bot account posting a very generic story? Great to see people have no,standards with regards to quality, dead internet theory is real.
I wondered of anyone else felt the same.
Bravo to you for sticking it to the HOA, but be honest, you knew the BRUSH PILE was a bridge too far, right?
This post is worthless without pictures.
These HOAs are nothing but little authoritarian communities ruled by idiots. This is why I would never live in one. If they want the place to look manicured then just say so.
Heyo! Love to see fellow durhamites around
Ooooo, everyone is gonna have those plants when they go to seed. Nice!
You are my folk hero of the day. I also live in NC and would love to see your plans - I’m trying to plan something similar for my home outside of CLT.
Omg. Somebody actually planted pokeweed on purpose.
My yard would be filled with Venus Fly Traps then.
If they do, your current setup should be grandfathered in. Be sure to take pictures and video to prove it was this way before the rule change.
r/nolawns would love this story
Time to review the plants in the HOA members' gardens for nativeness/invasiveness, and submit any violations during the next meetings.
NC HOA board member here. Send them the Durham landscape manual that basically states to plant only native, water wise plants and to eliminate as much grass as possible because it wastes water. I had to update our guidelines to remove invasive species the developer was encouraging, the Durham landscape manual shut them down real quick when I got push back on stuff.
Sounds like a bunch of dopes chasing a trendy meme as policy, then revealed to not understand anything.
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I've never understood that HOA thing.
You buy a property so you can do whatever you want on it, but then you gotta watch Karen and Kevin snooping around your trash and fine you because your property isn't living up to their expectations? :D
Define feral. I think that wild, native plants are wonderful. This is the reason I specifically said," No HOA's" when I was house hunting. I HATE the regulations and the rules you gave to follow. They dont allow for individual expression.
You planted Pokeweed????
do you have any certifications for landscaping?
if so shove
that cert up their ….
Oh, no. Pokeweed. I just had to rip a bunch of that shit out by hand. Shame it's poisonous.
Who doesn't like black eyed Susans, cone flower and tall, native grass? That's about 50% of what makes up my landscaping and it looks beautiful.
Your HOA is clearly ridiculous. It's a shame that they didn't utilize your knowledge and experience to the betterment of the community. Idiots
Also look at the exact wording used in the bylaws. Yard and Lawn are two different things. Everyone (generally) has a yard, but a yard is not necessarily a Lawn. A Lawn is generally defined as a Yard that is primarily composed of relatively short cut grass. If you don't have predominately grass, then it's not a lawn, it's just a yard with plants.
So if the bylaws say you must have a YARD using native plant species etc etc... you fit the bill to a T. By using the term Yard you can argue that they didn't intend for people to have a lawn.
There is a guy in AZ fighting this last I heard and is using this exact scenario. He changed his yard to be entirely net-zero landscaping (rocks and cacti and such). HOA was pissed off and told him he needs to plant grass (and thus spend tons of money on water to keep it green... in AZ... fuck that!). His argument is that the Bylaws say Yard in one section and Lawn in another. The only mention of Lawn is "Lawns must be mowed or cut to be within xyz range of inches" or some such wording. They do not use the words interchangeably, there is no specific requirement to HAVE a lawn, meaning a yard made up primarily of grass. Only a mention that lawns must kept within certain standards... if you have one. Just like there are rules saying cars must be kept on the driveway and not in the yard don't apply to people who don't have cars and therefore cannot be construed as a requirement that all homeowners MUST have a car. This rule about lawn maintenance is just telling people who DO have a lawn how to keep it well maintained, not that people MUST have a lawn.
Sounds like anyone with turf grass in their yard needs to be cited.
Personally, if you were my neighbor, I’d ask for your help to do the same to my yard. Sounds so much better than flat grass.
Trumpet Vine is native but extremely aggressive. Would not be my first choice
You should plant Venus flytraps everywhere. If im not mistaken they are native only to North and South Carolina
What's up bull city neighbor!
I applaud your fight, and if you live in a neighborhood with its own parkway, I will help you in the fight (we just wood chipped our entire lawn due to a broken water main repair)
As an area resident I would love to know which HOA if you don’t mind DM’ing me
FYI, all parts of Pokeweed are toxic to any mammal.