Japanese language attracts a bunch of weirdos, I guess

When I started uni I thought about majoring in japanese, after considering I went with other majors but kept learning japanese myself as a hobby. I genuinely thought the japanese major students would be cool to hang out with and learn with but I was mostly met with gatekeeping attitude and general cringe. One time in particular I talked with a lady that is majoring in japanese and has been learning it for six years and when I told her I was attending the N3 exam she gave me a sour face and this is also after I offered to hang out and talk to eachother to practice which was also met with just a weird responses.

I think that it's a touchy subject to a lot of people because they take pride in their learning, here I thought uni was a place for everyone to chill (it's not like there's an employer out there for people who know japanese in my country)

Just weird man.

While I was studying in Tokyo, I was the "leader" of the dorm that I lived in. It was my responsibility to take all of the new people to the Ward office to get all of their stuff in line(I got a bit of a discount on rent for doing it so there was some incentive).

There was one new kid who came to the dorm who was 22. When I met him, he asked me how long I had been in Japan and what level I was at.

The school that I went to had two course options once you reached about N4. You could take a slower paced conversation focused course, or a fastest paced college entry preparation course. I was in the slower paced course.

I will admit that during my time in Japan, I was enjoying my life a little more than I should have been and wasn't focusing on my studies so I had ended up retaking two semesters because I failed the final test by a few points.

When I told him that I had been here about a year and a half and was around N3, he went "You've been here that long and you're ONLY N3?! I've been studying online(this was during covid) for 6 months and I'm already at N2!"

I just gave him a thumbs up and a "Congratulations?" before going about my business.

The hilarious part was though that his pronunciation was HORRENDOUS. "Areegato gozaimasoo." "Kore wa benree desoo."

He left after about 6 months, complaining all the time that no one liked him and that he couldn't make friends.

It doesn't really happen in real life, I feel. Met many foreigners in Japan and only 1 had a weird complex. He quickly went home because he got told to quit.

As to why it happens online, idk. I guess the same reason people are rude online in general.

"Because japan is amazing and mine and I don't want to share it with you" mentality with some.

Sounds super unhealthy, I would distance myself from those people

Because everyone wants to be the last samurai when they go to Japan and be the main character. If they see another baka gaijin it’s ruining their immersion.

And Japan historically has attracted a lot of odd people who don’t understand societal norms.

I know a guy online who is getting his degree in Japanese Language and is currently in Japan on a study abroad program. I’ve studied independently for nearly 2 years now, and when I met him for the first time in a voice chat. He had seen that I had some Japanese in my bio, and instantly tried to one-up me by speaking very quickly with Japanese and then laughing when I didn’t understand what he had said.

We later got into a conversation about study methods, and when I told him about mistakes I had made early on as a naive learner (focusing on only learning kanji/doing zero immersion) he got all snarky and said that “we,” meaning people that study it in University, I guess, “always laugh at people like that.” I’m a Mechanical Engineering senior right now, and it frustrated me to no end that he talked down to me like this. God forbid some of us have to pay for our own schooling and go into a degree program that has any career prospects, and not get our college and study abroad fully funded by parents.

I don’t understand why some people that are enrolled in a program for language learning believe that it is the only way to learn, a lot of people I’ve met on the internet who have taken courses for it or are doing it as a degree are all so dismissive of self-study, as if them getting graded on what I see as a hobby makes them more Japanese.

It's especially obvious on the various Japanese learning discords. I think the problem with Japanese is it's very easy to produce "metrics" which justify your prowess i.e

• Number of Kanji learnt / kanji grid
• Number of grammar points learnt
• Number of books read / games completed
• Number of mature cards in Anki

Obviously you can do this in other languages, but due to the amount of technical support behind Japanese, it's very easy to gamify / analyse your progress and therefore, showcase it.

For example, one of the Japanese language discords routinely has people list the number of completed books / games / etc in their names. On the surface it's harmless but unintentionally, it is just one level of instilling a sort of hierarchy.

It's extremely rare to see anyone describe how they formed a genuine connection with people through the language which is somewhat telling.

Of course this is completely different in real life where there are plenty of actually normal people who learn Japanese.

I find it a bit maddening about how I see sincere and meaningful questions about learning Japanese just getting downvoted relentlessly

I'm in a Japanese School and we are all super supportive (help others, share anki deck, group studies, etc).

What I hate is people who are "sooooo fan of Japan since they are 5 yo" and that can't put the most basic effort to learn the language. Those can't be help and parasite a lot of japanese sub with nonsense posts.

It's not passion for language. It's a fetish mindset with an individualistic twist learning a language or culture that is very much oriented towards group conformity. Just get over yourself.

Never have had anything like this happen. Although I don't hang out with other "learners" so that might be related. I do know there is similar competitive attitudes for people learning English.

Japanese is by many metrics a relatively hard language fro English speakers to learn. It attracts a lot of intellectual snobbery, as some people see themselves in a particular light for learning the language well.

It's also a somewhat niche hobby, compared to say, learning French or Spanish. Some people like everything Japanese to be "their thing" and become competitive or jealous when they come across other people who share this hobby, or who are perhaps better at it.

I think as a language it also tends to attract some socially awkward and peculiar people. Of course there is the 'weeb' stereotype, which I know is exaggerated, but it does exist for a reason.

I think there's also socio-economic factors too. Having the time and resources to learn the language of a distant country is a privilege, and I think there's some innate weird snobbery and hierarchy in the way learners behave with each other.

I blame Matt vs Japan for a lot of elitism in the Japanese language learning community. I personally think his ego and mentality about Japan and Japanese has rubbed off on the Japanese language learning community.

Its probably the delusion that only they can master japanese and be a naturalized japanese person, kinda like they would ”own” japan, if it makes sense. Then when someone else who is also foreigner brings up trying to master japanese or move there etc it breaks their delusional narcissistic view of the world and makes them hostile.

I think it's reddit and the pandemic of main character syndrome narcissists. It wasn't like this not four, five years ago. If you need help with practice, I would recommend staying away from them. Stick to official apps, or practice one-on-one. It's the same on the German, and even French subreddits.

People have become extremely self-centred. You're unable to tolerate it, that's very understandable and highly normal. You may not be a narcissist.

Protect your well-being from these vampires.

Japanese tends to attract a lot of antisocial losers who find a lot of meaning in their lives gaining a skill that most people don’t have that takes an insane amount of work. Because it’s difficult and they’ve never done anything like it in their life before, they then take pride in it and make it their “thing.” Being good at Japanese is what they do and it’s tied to their identity. Taking a small trip to Japan and getting “すごいed and 上手ed” at every slight attempt to make communication might be the most praise they’ve ever received in their life.

I know this because Japanese attracted me because I was an antisocial loser who found a lot of meaning in my life gaining a skill that most people don’t have that takes an insane amount of work. Because it was difficult and I had never done anything like it in my life before, I took pride in it and made it my “thing”… you get my point.

As an old Japanese speaker who is now a full-time Japanese tutor, I see my old self in a lot of them. Some of my students are like this and I try not to judge them too harshly but instead guide them in the right direction. A lot of them have tough lives and it’s a healthy outlet that they might be taking too far. A lot of them learn to overcome it when they actually get to know Japanese people and a bit of the culture seeps into them and they gain a bit of humility.

If you think that’s bad you should see the foreigner communities in Japan lol. A lot of weird gatekeepers in both.

In a lot of communities I found it’s just not productive to vent about something you found frustrating. People who know more will just dismiss everything or say you’re doing something wrong. It’s really annoying.

I’m not sure of the answer, other than for some reason this language tends to attract a certain type of person. To avoid competitiveness or general feeling of failure I’ve found that focusing on what I love about the language and culture and sticking to myself seems to work best. I’ve stopped ranking and putting goals ahead, and instead just make sure I’m enjoying it every minute I’m studying or engaging with the language. For example, I primarily want the language so I can read, so I allowed myself to put that front and center and spend as much time as I can actually reading. Seems to be working because I’m making progress much faster than before (and able to increase my daily Anki reviews dramatically). My speaking and listening comprehension is lagging behind, but that isn’t the point. The point is I am still keeping it up and haven’t quit yet like every other time I’ve tried (other languages too).

People are just assholes.

From what I've seen, it"s mostly something online. Add in Reddit being Reddit... That's the issue. You have a shitty subgroup of a subgroup that's shitty in the first place.

In other words: I've taken a lot of classes offline, met other foreigners studying Japanese, and everyone is supportive. It's only online that things seem crazy.

And again, considering the Reddit types... I'm not really surprised. I think a lot of it comes down to, we post on here as just a username with text. You forget that most users are actual people- not nearly as many bots as other parts.

I don't meet female learners like this. Is it a guy thing?

It's much easier to argue on the internet than actually just sit down and fucking study.

Honestly, you get these types of people in everything. My hobby is drawing and some people get so competitive over everything, whether it is social media likes and follows, getting commissions, quality of work, which approach you should learn art with (drawabox, loomis, sight size, etc,) as if you're not supposed to learn them all and use them all. They get weird about knowing famous artists etc too.

Im brand new to Japanese, but im not surprised by what you wrote. You just have to ignore the weirdos and just do your best to find a group of people you like without weirdness

I stopped mentioning how long I've been studying (4 years off and on) because people start to belittle my progress or how far I've gotten. This is usually the several discord communities I've tried joining, haven't really experienced that here in this subreddit.

Yeah F those nerds!

On a more serious note, personally when I've encountered toxicity and competition for JP learning it's been by far limited to reddit. And reddit already having a reputation for debate and often toxicity it made sense.

Of course I've encountered it to some level elsewhere too, but outside of this sub the spaces I talk to people about JP are generally positive and encouraging (mainly a discord channel that talks about books)

Human nature paired with weebs. When elden ring dropped people were claiming you didn‘t beat the game, because you didn‘t use the ultra glass canon build and used a damn shield.

Weaboo community has a lot of emotionally stunted people who never really learned a lot of pro-social behaviors, and end up acting this way. Most are attention starved, love starved, and learn about human relationships from Japanese cartoons, many of which have pretty confusing and toxic messaging about love and human relationships.

Many anime characters for example really emphasize being powerful and ‘the best’ over having a compassionate view of others. And quite naturally, the most villainous characters are often the loners and mistreated people whom these viewers most identify with. So even when a noble or heroic character might try to portray a kinder message, they tend to prefer the mean spirited and hurt villains, whom often crave validation and power.

I think in addition to this, they get a lot of flak for being fans of Japanese stuff, and so they tend to gatekeep not only their anime fandoms, but the entire Japanese culture. They see it as a thing they discovered, and since people often are mean and cruel to them for liking it so much, they’re distrustful of anyone who would also engage in it. It’s people with chips on their shoulders who feel like being interested and ‘good at liking Japan’ is their whole identity, and so they purity test others to see if they’re on the same level as they are, which being proficient in the Japanese language is seen as among the pinnacle buy-ins, because learning Japanese is hard.

My theory is that because it's a notoriously difficult language, it sits in this zone where it’s both popular and seen as hard, so some learners turn milestones (“I passed N1,” “I lived in Japan,” etc.) into a status badge and start policing who counts as serious or not. Just from personal experience, I feel that the worst gatekeeping shows up in spaces that are text-only, anonymous, and mostly about discourse instead of actually doing things in Japanese, which is a lot of the online communities out there. In-person classes usually stay way more normal because people have basic social consequences and teachers are focused on communication (however, I still noticed a weird air of elitism in my university classes compared to when I studied German, especially from those who came back from studying abroad).

It's really bizarre. Japan/Japanese culture/Japanese language learning attracts some deeply weird people. The living in Japan subs are almost worse - dark, dreary, and not at all supportive. It was a huge eye opener when I stumbled into r/chinalife and it was supportive and calm.

I do not have personal experience of it, but I think it is just that many people really like the language and culture.

For you to actually "learn" Japanese, you need to be very, very motivated. It cannot be much of a "chore" and it has to come from the heart to sit through things you might not be able to understand, when alternatives with things you do exist. It takes so much time and effort that those who do not have the interest to the degree, will be boiled away soon enough. It's the reason why Japanese is so beginner-heavy.

This "beginner-heavy" is probably part of it. "You are not learning enough", "you are using the language wrong", "you are tainting my thoughts and feelings about the language, country, and culture, by being there". Lot of it is just jealousy, but I believe most people - even through how much they do not wish to accept it, for such a thing is only a "those other people"-thing - are affected by this. Necessarily it is not bad (in fact, it's very human and happens constantly), but the feeling can lay root to, as you mention: toxicity.

There is a difference between online and in real life.

Online, people are liars. You'll get people saying they went from nothing to N3 in 3 months and that N5 is pointless. You'll get people gatekeep everything. They will say there is only one or two ways to learn and everything else is useless. Their whole personality online is being a liar and trying to sound like a Japanese God for some reason. It's not many people, maybe just 1%, but they are the most vocal. Their obsession with Japan is crazy. The problem with online is they lying is easy.

In real life, I have hardly ever met anyone like this. I've seen s few though in Japan. I've lived in Japan 3 years and these people will think I'm a tourist and look at me like I'm a POS. If I speak to them, they'll try and "out Japanese me" to try and one up me on everything to do with Japan. They suck. Every time they have been nerdy as hell white Americans. I'm sure other nationalities and races (and women too) do this, but I've never met any.

I think it's the only thing they have. Online or IRL, their Japanese skills are basically their whole life and their whole personality. Online, they can lie and get fake internet points to feel better, which is weird but all trolls do it. Offline they like to feel superior.

There's a video which portrays those who hate foreigners in Japan... are actually foreigners who have been living there for a while. That translates to Japanese learning as well.

You're all making me very glad right now that my Japanese language exchange group is relatively sane.

As a Mexican, I thought this was common. You see, when you learn English as a Mexican, I don’t know why, but there is a certain toxicity around learning the language. People often compare others’ pronunciation, vocabulary, how long they have lived in the United States, how many times they have been there, and other strange metrics. It’s toxic, I know, but it is what it is. I don’t know why.

Some people say that a Mexican’s worst enemy is another Mexican. And, you know, historically, when Spain came here to conquer, they didn’t do it alone. They did it with the help of other Indigenous peoples from here, from Mexico.

So yes, a Mexican’s worst enemy is another Mexican. And we compare ourselves to other Mexicans and mock them if their pronunciation is poor or sometinhg instead of apreciating someone is triying to communicate something in another language. It’s something really toxic.

there's this type of people in every community (from sports to arts to reading even) if we are going to keep it real. its not just the japanese learning community, in sports there's always going to be kids that think they're too good to play with you or give you a few tips. usually whatever energy you give will be received so just be yourself, and you will find a good crowd.

We're mostly autistic weebs

in my opinion it has to do width the incredibly long learning path. i have to confess to have smugly exhaled a bit too loud in class when another participant confidently asked our sensei to explain to her an entire cookie banner or rent a car on a japanese website; we we had just started learning the "ra" row in hiragana.

Honestly the language exchange meetups I went to were cordial and friendly, to the point where we hung out with each other outside of meeting times. We still talk to each other even after many of us went our separate ways, many to live in Japan.

Some people get motivated by competition, so it doesn’t necessarily have to be for weird reasons. 

Though the examples you mentioned sound pretty toxic. 

I've lived in Japan for almost 10 years. I know enough Japanese to get around comfortably, but I married someone who is vastly better at Japanese than I am, but who is not Japanese. I would have never married someone who is Japanese though. I wonder what those kinds of people would think about that lol

It reminds me of an ALT I worked with. I personally think learning Japanese together is a good way to learn it and I tried to be supportive of him (not fluent but I was definitely a higher level) and he tried to get competitive about it, like he needed to know more than me.

Summarizing a bit but it came to a head where he asked me if やばい was always negative and I said no, it was very versatile and bc he had ONL heard it negatively, that meant I was fucking wrong and untrustworthy.

And I was particularly upset bc he had clearly only asked me to confirm his ow experience, and I was giving him free info.

I’m glad my friends aren’t assholes and we support and help each other with language learning

really? I've never met anyone like that before, and personally I don't even want to act like that, it's weird.

It’s very weird…studying it and putting it into practice are two different things. Japanese Meetups show everyone’s level and always see to attract some very strange people. Some have been banned because they absolutely cannot understand social norms and invade people’s space as well as just posting weird stuff on social media.

Learn Japanese for you, no one else. Then go out and talk and learn and keep at it. It’s a lifelong journey.

Who are you guys talking to I’ve never experienced anything like this

People seem to gatekeep Japan and speaking the language because it’s become so popular, that they need to differentiate themselves from everyone else. “Yeah? Well I saw it first, so there!”

Weebs want to outweeb other weebs.

For some reason the language and culture seems to attract many toxic and gross people. Tons of them on the Tokyo sub too

I just wanna learn and have fun when I (hopefully) visit in the future 😭 I've not been met with any hostility but I've been practicing by my self,, so,,

Id so be down to find a learning partner tho ✨ I just dunno where to look or ask

100% agree. I've felt this difference also while trying to find people to practice with. People who are learning English are always so kind and willing to help, very understanding, but that's never the case with Japanese for some reason. I took it as a major in uni and had a terrible experience. Friend groups were formed due to trauma bonding, out of the bunch only me and one of my friends are still into Japanese, the others got too traumatized and claim that they would rather pretend they never studied it in the first place. The toxicity came from senpai, kohai, teachers, fellow classmates, even guests who would eventually show up to lecture us on smth. They were the first ones to compliment us on learning a new language since they only knew Japanese, but then also the first ones to humiliate use publicly for not acting "Japanese enough" when we live in the actual opposite side of the planet. I've never heard of anyone being forced to act as if they're french, or english, or italian etc in order to learn the language. The goal should be to express yourself and who you are in another language. But with Japanese, for some reason, you're expected to act Japanese, to change who you are to fit in while knowing that you will never be seen as one no matter what you do. 

The only reason why I'm still in it is bc I wanna be the kind of teacher who does things differently and encourages students instead of humiliating them. God knows how much I'd have wanted that years ago.

I see that a lot too in Japanese language learning communities, it’s like people defend their language as their core identity or something and dare you note on some similarities in learning with other languages that you also learned/learning they will eat you alive.

Personally I can’t stand this toxicity. Especially you notice how toxic the discussion turns when people mention learning methods that avoid tedious and meticulous drills or anki stuff, it instantly turns into “NoYoUCaNtDoThIs!” nonsense, chill down man, do your exhausting stuff, I have better ways that are enjoyable, why do you bother, I am just sharing how I do things.

I thought maybe it has something to do with majoring in Japanese and when suddenly you suggest a better, more enjoyable way of learning, the mere notion attacks their core values and life choices cause they worked their asses off and lived through frustration to achieve it and they turn downright toxic and aggressive?

Yeah I’ve noticed this, also among people interested in Japan - they love to compete with you about how well they know the country. Sad really, most of them are weird/outcast kind of people. They get away with it because Japanese people don’t realise they are like the rejects of the society they have come from and tend to be interest in other cultures without noticing mental nutcase vibes that many Japan obsessed people have..

I've noticed this A LOT . I was asking myself the same question, why so much toxicity ? I think a lot of men objectify asian women firstly so they learn Japanese to get a Japanese girlffriend/wife and its so fucking obvious that they're just overcompensentating for lack of confidence/self worth . Hence, the toxic competition. Anyways, happy to see I'm not the only one noticing this.

some people are learning it exclusively from their parents basement for anime and fetishization of the culture, and theyre not typically the social type.

What you are describing is something many people notice, especially if they stay around Japanese learning spaces for a long time. It is not universal, but it is common enough to feel real.

A big part of it comes from identity. For some learners, Japanese stops being just a language and becomes the core of how they see themselves. When that happens, progress, proximity to Japan, or relationships with Japanese people turn into status markers. Once language learning becomes identity, comparison is almost unavoidable, and insecurity shows up as competition.

Japanese also attracts a certain kind of long-term fascination. It is culturally distant, takes a long time to learn, and is often tied to media, travel, or personal relationships. That combination can create a feeling of scarcity, like only a few people are “legitimate” learners. Some people react to that by trying to prove they belong more than others, whether through proficiency, time spent in Japan, or personal relationships.

The social side you mention, especially around dating or marriage, often comes from the same place. When someone feels their value in the community depends on how close they are to Japan or Japanese people, those relationships get turned into trophies. That is where the objectification and one-upping you describe tends to appear, and it is understandably uncomfortable to be around.

It is also not a coincidence that many of the most competitive people drop out early. People who are genuinely focused on long-term learning usually stop caring about comparison at some point. The language becomes a tool, not a scoreboard. They often drift away from those spaces or interact more quietly.

Healthy competition, like motivating each other to improve, does exist, but it usually shows up in smaller, more grounded groups or one-on-one relationships. The louder, more performative side tends to dominate public spaces because it is driven by ego, not progress.

So yes, many people have experienced this. It says more about social dynamics and insecurity than about Japanese or language learning itself. Most learners who stick with the language long enough eventually outgrow that environment rather than trying to win inside it.

Theres a lot of transplants from the anime manga and jrpg subs

I love gaming and anime but those fanbases have a lot of really disturbed and/or childish people in them

And reddit encourages and enables bad behavior in so many ways

On top of the usual caveats of anonymity on the net letting people be terrible with little to no consequences

This is far less the case in any in-person learning, I have yet to meet a rude or truly unhelpful person in any in-person or zoom class

when life is a meaningless and superficial comparison to everyone else, then everything becomes a competition.

people like that can only feel good about themselves by constantly trying to prove how much better they are, then someone else. and honestly, it's sad. i feel sorry for people who think they have to be better than someone else, all the time. what s horrifyingly depressing and lonely existence.

the only competition worth pursuing, is to be better than your past self. and that's really not a competition. it's learning and growth.

be kind to yourself so you can be kind to other people.

Because the internet is full of posturing posers.

Can't say I'm super involved with the community but I haven't had such a hard time. Talked to a bunch of people at the last jlpt and they were very nice. Same with other Japanese learners I know.

I hope I never experience this side of the community.

Years ago, my neighbor in Tokyo attended Middlebury's summer program in Vermont. He said that was intensive and brutal. But he had great memories of the program and it was a great springboard towards fluency. He still has a lot of friends from the program and we met up with several when they came to visit Tokyo.

IME, that level of socialization is uncommon in Japanese language schools. The difficulty and intensity certainly are factors. Culture shock. So many students from different countries and languages. Inability to communicate basic concepts with Japanese people. Some of the Asians are under massive pressure to get into university and/or earn money at work.

A lot the very competitive beginners and intermediates you mentioned try to learn japanese because of anime and japanese women, i think, so that explains a lot, including why the advanced people who actually want to learn the language aren't as toxic.

I've noticed that too! I get that Japanese is hard but still not impossible to learn. Also those who change their personality only because they become fluent in Japanese 😭??! I get that Japan is culturally rich and most of us learn the language because we love something in specific but you still can be a normal human being 😭

Depends on the environment you are in. I was in an awesome language school and everyone was super friendly and cool. We were all different levels, but those who felt comfortable trying to speak in only Japanese we did. I had two British classmates and one Korean classmate that I only spoke Japanese to. Everyone else we spoke more English (except one classmate who I spoke to in Chinese) because they did not feel comfortable speaking in Japanese but I didn’t mind, I just loved meeting new people and making new friends. Regardless, everyone was always super nice and helpful. Very solid teachers also.

Yeah I thought the same thing when I started learned back in like 2009. When I studied Spanish before that, people were very whatever about mistakes and encouraging all in all. But with Japanese, everyone always seemed so eager to get ahead of you that they’d diss you, refuse to help you, and even sabotage your progress.

I think it stems from personal insecurity. They’re conflicted between the pride in their perceived skill and superiority and shame for not actually being as good as they project. Something like imposter syndrome? The quick fix for that would be to knock everyone else down a peg to make yourself always look like the best option. Definitely insecure weeb behavior.

I hated this mindset, so it pushed me to generally avoid studying with other English natives. I made the most progress when studying with friends from non-English speaking countries like Brazil, the Philippines, Korea, Thailand, etc. They didn’t come off as hostile at all, which made learning fun again

The key to enjoying Japan without harassment is to stay offline about it. You know what you like, and you know your circle. You don't need internet recognition for it. And if someone's making a scene out of knowing Japan better than you in a hostile way, just listen to them for the moment and remember that you don't have to talk to them again.

I started studying when I was 15 or 16 (it was the 80s so I'm a bit hazy on the details 😅). Fast forward nearly 40 years and nothing has changed. It was like that then, it's like that now.

It may be because of the old "Japanese is the hardest language" trope, so people tend to be impressed by those who are studying it, and that goes to their heads?

Or it may be that they actually believe all the cries of "Waaaa, nihongo jōzu desu neeeee!"?? 😅

I think I'm an outlier in that, while I'm reasonably proficient and qualified to teach it (which I do privately and at university), I've never married a Japanese man, and I've spent more time outside Japan than in...

Every year at the start of term I make a mental note of the men (and they're almost always men) who seem to have the "pick me gaijin" air about them because of the Japanese wife/girlfriend/anime obsession etc. They're the ones who give me a 👀🙄 look because "how could this old white woman possibly teach me anything?"...

And unsurprisingly, they're usually the ones who drop out within the first few months.

If you're not like this, and just want to learn the language for the love of the language, please don't be put off! As a teacher, let me say that you're our favourite type of student!

weebs. weebs. and more weebs. a lot of crossover between reddit and japanese interest will result in a lot of anti social weebs that get off on one upping another about how much time they have to do japanese instead of having a life with japanese learning as a hobby.

anytime i come with a question its always "well its because you dont study 4-7 hours a day like you should!!!" when the average working person has maybe 3-4 free hours with a healthy sleep schedule lol

I've noticed something similar. It's something along the lines of "holier than thou" like my love for Japan is stronger than yours, more genuine and pure. I've thought about it a bit and I think it comes down to wanting to fit in. Everyone wants to be the person who broke through and actually "became" Japanese. That said, I know a lot of people who aren't like that. And at the same time I don't really blame the ones who are. It is hard to fit in, and it feels bad when you don't. You feel like a failure and that you aren't "worthy" of... Learning Japanese? Hanging out with Japanese people? Traveling to Japan? Idk, it's hard to put a finger on it.

Anyway, that's what I think. I'm not sure if that's actually what's going on.

People hate to be wrong. Especially when they commit to an idea. Japanese is a huge commitment, so people get really fired up at the idea of being wrong.

I wrote the same thing a few months ago. You can check out everyone else’s responses here.

In a Language Learning community, there are 2 types of learners, those learning out of necessity and those learning for fun. For Japanese, especially among English speakers, the ratio is very skewed towards the latter, much more than for other languages.

Language Learning takes a lot of effort and a lot of time, so it's natural that you want to display/recognize your achievements. You want to feel good about putting in a lot of time into this skill, and that's ok. If you're learning out of necessity, it means there are many ways to use it in *your* real world. Maybe you can use it for your job, to talk with your friends, etc.

However, there aren't many ways to do this if you're learning for fun, yes you can feel good about understanding certain things, but it's natural that people want validation from others too. When you end up with a community full of people like this, you can expect some toxicity in the mix.

Of course I'm not trying to downplay anyone learning for fun, I just think not having any real way to feel good about the time and effort one puts into language learning can lead to people "one-upping" each other etc.

Brother who have you been studying with??

I don't know why but it's annoying.

https://preview.redd.it/ugmo2hc0v3cg1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=edb1848705b388a99d1a3d24eb6d0c0bfad7de78

Many Japanese learners are a) socially awkward and b) define themselves and their own value through their Japanese ability to an unhealthy degree because they don't have much else going on in life. So unfortunately many online Japanese learning communities are very gatekeep-y and all around unpleasant

Back in the day we called em weeaboos.

It's packed with competitive, hormone fueled teenagers.

The community also has a strong culture-fetish vibe, which makes it quite different from most other language-learning spaces.

The only similar dynamic I've encountered is in English-learning communities. I've never actively participated in those, but since I speak several languages and consume English content, I've occasionally been recommended some posts and joined conversations or left comments, only to get torn apart by unnatural-sounding know-it-alls bragging about 'perfect IELTS scores' or 'living in London for a year.' Never mind that I've actually lived in the UK for the past 20 years...

On a funny note in my university, the ones who choosed Japanese language as a degree were you know the typical stereotypes of nerds both men and girls, Chinese language was all type of people from former Bussines men to people who were doing a double degree, while Korean were mainly girls who were into kpop or kdrama

When I first found this subreddit I mistakenly thought it was about learning to speak Japanese. I quickly realised most people seem to just want to read manga.

dunning kruger bro. n1 isn’t even anywhere close to fluent but ppl be flaunting that shit like it means that they’re fluent. i’m honestly surprised that japan only requires n2 to work there. n2 is not nearly enough.

Ok but how many kanji do you know

I don't think this is unique to Japanese learning. I think it's a part of human nature.

Nice reference to 切磋琢磨! I think this is a very underrated phrase and hope it becomes much more prominent in the Japanese learning community. If people think about it more as a concept, it may also lead people to reflect on their behaviour and engage in more healthy productive competition.

People building their image around external validation.

This is why I like folks who just watch anime. They're not fronting or pretending. They just enjoy their hobby and don't care about other's opinions.

It also seems to be the language community that does the most talking and arguing about HOW to learn the language and what is the ‘best’ way(especially Kanji) and what are inferior methods.

I’m wondering if perhaps this is a male experience? I’ve gone to a few Japanese speaking meetups and they’ve been nothing but friendly. Even when I forgot all my Japanese and dropped back to N5 from N3, everyone was so encouraging.

I see this sort of thing in a lot of niche-ish nerdy spaces and I think it's just a huge overlap between the two due to how central Japanese media is to nerd spaces. On top of that are general no-lifers that need to feel good about themselves.

The final piece of the puzzle is that we get a lot of asinine, stupid, and/or easily googleable questions here so people might just be generally annoyed as far as this sub is concerned.

Not even close to your experience and more of a silly moment. It is when I asked a simple question on Discord and it was during quite a heated debate between two people. I was hesitant to ask in the first place since they seem pretty enthusiastic. But even after I waited a while, they're still not finished and since my question is pretty simple, I tried sending a message. Got shut down immediately lmao with one of the two saying "Don't interrupt me" or something. It's partially my fault but let's just say I won't be going to that Discord again.

Because this is what happens when something becomes popular. You get tons of tourists who get into it only because they want social clout and something to flash others with..

"Oh look how cool I am, I can speak Japanese and been to Japan x times. Do I like Japan? Hell no! But it's trendy" type of person. 

Sorry you've had that experience. I, however, have personally only met amazing people during my Japanese learning journey. Everyone has been really supportive. Ig I've been lucky.

Last time I posted a comment in a Japanese learning subreddit I got downvoted into oblivion and had a number of people explaining how Japanese are not good at teaching Japanese and that actually white Americans, who don't sound Japanese at all when they speak, are better at teaching Japanese.

There's this weird obsession with a handful of western "Japanese language influencers" and none of them sound Japanese at all. Most of them sound like they're reading a script or memorized the lines. Meanwhile there are countless Japanese vlogs full of real Japanese language and conversations.

Language learning and toxicity are not mutually exclusive. Every discipline has toxic in-groups. I believe it is caused by the subset of people who unhealthy derive their identity from excelling at the medium itself.

I think it’s because there’s a lot of competition in the space trying to attract people to the “next big super easy get rich quick learning scheme”

Makes people get attached to their specific chosen method of learning/content creator and defensive of any alternatives. Sort of sunk cost fallacy

I don't know, this sub has been very helpful to me every time I've asked for help regarding anything.

Also, language meet ups? You mean in Japan? Last time I checked most of those were fairly weird and had very bad reviews, people also mentioning pretty much everyone there was western so it wasn't like you were doing much Japanese.

Are you asking why people one-up each other? Human nature born from insecurity

Ahh, yeah 100%. I have ancestry so you can imagine the one plus+ing I get on that alone. My Japanese 101 teacher was alot like how you've described. Thankfully managed to pull through with a B, shocked honesly.

Many Japanese language learners not only want to learn to speak Japanese but they also want to adopt the culture as their own and be seen as Japanese. Often times they are outcasts who have not been accepted in their own culture so they try to force their way into another. The easiest way to demonstrate their assimilation is to “puff their feathers” by showing off their knowledge or skill

All subs related to Japan are like that sadly, a lot of gatekeeping or just being mean and dismissive constantly

There are some good things about the community. Compared to other language learning communities, they really call out bs here. In the French and Spanish subs people pass inaccurate or bad advice all the time, lie about their abilities, etc. I don't see that as much here.

I'm sure there are some odd fellows out there, but it seems to be exaggerated.

The most important rule of the internet is to vet the comments. Subreddits are just terrible for 'academic' advancement. Everyone has an equal voice, which means those that should control the narrative (because they are experts) don't.

One could be an expert in rockets, lets say. You go on the rocket subreddit, tell someone the correct way to build a rocket, but it goes against what the amateur 4 posts ago said and he takes it as a personal attack. So he tears you down, and makes that expert look like an idiot. So then the amateurs advice becomes the 'meta' of the sub.

Yeah I don’t get this. I live here and I need to learn Japanese to function in society and work. It’s just a language.

I am not going to ask Reddit or discord though since I have native speakers available to ask questions to, thus avoiding some of the toxicity.

The people I have met here who have better Japanese than me (like Chinese who have been living here a decade) are mostly cool and help me out.

I’m just learning but I see this a lot, “this group is so toxic”. It seems like every group is going to have some sort of competition. Healthy competition is good though. It help drives learning and improving and we should’ve encouraging it. Unhealthy competition where people look down on everyone, yeah not welcomed but unfortunately it exists everywhere. In every hobby I have taken part in, they exist.

There’s seemingly this kind of broad sense among white Americans especially that Knowing and Understanding Japan and Japanese confers a special kind of clout, like it makes you a wizard who can communicate with the spirit realm or something. It isn’t helped by the fact that most people outside of Japan think of it as basically a country-sized theme park, instead of a place where people go to their jobs and vacuum their floors and pay their taxes. 

You just have to look at the latest garbage fire localization discourse du jour to be reminded that a lot of people take pride in knowing facts about Japanese, without being able to actually speak it, and then wield that as a weapon against anyone who might dare suggest that they’re merely exoticizing clumsy and amateurish fansub writing, thinking that somehow Japanese people actually all speak in such a stilted, awkward manner. “As expected, there’s no helping it.”

I do wonder if part of it is related to virtually zero entertainment media actually intended for Japanese adults having any international footprint, so learners can more easily get stuck into a kind of perpetual adolescence, especially given the common enough archetype of “I have anime and video games instead of friends.” Places like 4chan exist in an actively anti-social way, with enforced anonymity that makes it basically impossible to form human connections.

So yeah, I guess part of it, my theory presupposes, is that most language learners of most languages expect to intend to use it to communicate with people in a two-way fashion at some point in their lives, while Japanese is regarded by many more like Sanskrit or Latin, as this holy scripture language that no one REALLY still speaks in real life. This creates weird dynamics. 

In my college Japanese 101 class 75% of the students dropped by the end of the semester, and another 30% failed. So in my 102 class all the students in it had a bit of a superiority complex because they had survived the hunger games of the first semester. Still had about a quarter DNF in the second semester even still.

I can only imagine that by third semester they would all have the Count Dooku "Signature Look of Superiority" thing going on lol but I didn't take it.

When someone has paid a high "cultural tax" to be there, they feel a proprietary sense of ownership over the culture.

Cognitive dissonance. To avoid the pain of being grouped with the "clueless tourist," the resident foreigner adopts a hyper-Japanese persona.

Identity construction. If Japan is a "secret world," then knowing its secrets makes you a "gatekeeper."

Control. In a society where you have very little real power or agency as a foreigner, "being more Japanese" is the only metric of power available.

However, there are many residents that don't a hoot what strangers think local or not. Just be yourself and try and be happy.

no. nothing I would say that is particular to language learning or Japan.

Language exchange meetups may well attract that sort of person, could be time for introspection or to stop going. Everything you wrote sounds very aggressive and unlikely.

I find it really funny on this reddit when people are like "its time to duke it out" and bicker in very cringe aggressive Japanese to prove their prowess.

Yeah I think a good amount of it stems from self-consciousness and imposter syndrome.

One would think this would foster some humility, and it probably does to some extent, but I think it ultimately results in thinking "Hey my Japanese may suck, but at least it's not as bad as that guy's".

I have a semi relevant experience adjacent to the topic here, I’m a fluent Japanese speaker, not a native speaker. I have met many Japanese people who felt offended that I am fluent in Japanese. The faces of shock and disgust, I used the Japanese language for my work for 6 years and that’s mainly the setting where I’ve experienced that reaction. I’m born and raised in Los Angeles and so I get it when it happens here, it makes sense to me when I get the shocked and in disbelief expressions. Many times at conventions I’ve seen non Asian people grimace that I am fluent and it’s surprising to them that someone “like me” can be interested in learning a language and be interested in Japanese culture. To be clear the majority of Japanese people are kind and accepting, the Japanese are a wonderful people.

Not that, most the groups I want to were pretty chill except one guy that claimed to have studied Japanese for years but could not manage beginner conversation, but interrupted people mid Japanese conversation and regularly announced he would really like having a Japanese wife, as if he though they were just waiting on him to let them know he was single and looking. Dude was about twice their age, socially awkward, possibly some kind of neurodivergent, and didn't speak Japanese. People stopped coming because of him.

Oddly there was a very similar woman, age and awkward conversation, barely spoke any Japanese, that came by a few times, I'm a little disappointed they didn't meet. I think I was hoping one or both would have an epiphany about how they acted.

I speak many languages and have lived in different countries, not just Japan where I am now. I have only come across the batshit weirdness that you describe in the OP, in Japan. I thought maybe its because people living here feel threatened by other foreigners in a competing for resources type of way. Whatever the reason it's definitely a thing, and it is so annoying.

I have never experienced anything like you describe. At most, I've seen people be somewhat competitive about JLPT levels (which is also silly, but not as extreme as what you're talking about).

I don't know if I'd classify myself as non-toxic, but I am routinely disappointed by the lack of actual japanese communication on this subreddit. So many people shit talking and they can't even do it in the language they claim to have been learning for years

If I had to guess I’d say some people learn it cause to feel different and thus they get hostile in this community because it takes that away from them.

They prolly have too few problems in their lives

This happens in a lot of language communities, especially if the community has a large number of people who live outside of said country (natives included), and in an attempt to appeared more cultured and closer to their “homeland” or further from their own they’ll engage in this type of behaviour. But again, this is just the internet, in real life you will meet people that are mostly motivated to learn for XYZ reason and do not think of it as a competition.

So many odd foreigners in Japan. As if other countries just sent all their uncomfortable weirdos here.

Just a conjecture: they have nothing else that makes them feel important, and some people learn another language with the wrong motivation. A combination of low self esteem and awful people skills.

Everything is relative. I'm certified in 6 languages, is that a good thing? Many language forums say it is. I beg to differ. Now I'll mention that during my generation my country made it compulsory to pass 3 languages up to secondary school (middle school / junior high) level. So Japanese is my 4th, learnt during early adulthood. The 3 compulsory languages? English, Chinese and one variant of Malay (you could pick). This is a Japanese language sub-reddit, so every one can tell you how big an advantage that is for learning Japanese. I'm certified in 6, but my extended family's average? 8 languages, I'm shit compared to them, so is that something to rub in people's faces? The colleague who sits next to me had to learn 4 languages for most of his school life (Finnish, English, Swedish, Russian), and Japanese is his 6th. There's literally no reason to feel special.

Others mention it could be "weirdos/weaboos". I can't say for certain but demographics have changed, in the sense that motivations shifted over time.

During my time folks got their JLPT 1 or 2 (yes I'm that old, this was before the N5 -> N1 days), got their masters / PhD usually in a science or engineering field and then go to Japan to live and work only after you had 5-10+ years of working experience in your own country. The general motivation was that you wanted to experience life in Japan, pay cut or not. If things didn't work out, you could go back and continue in the same field. So folks who were in their 30s or 40s had some money saved up, a decent work portfolio and was on a kind of "in demand skill" work visa, generally not an ELT. In short, you already had quite a bit going for you in life. At 30s-40s, you had travelled quite a bit, life had smacked you quite a few times and you learnt to get better. In Japan, you were more interested in mixing with locals rather than finding fellow countrymen or foreigners to mix with. Sure there was an odd person who behaved like what OP described (usually an ELT), but otherwise folks were not whipping out achievements like a dick measuring contest.

These days, I hear more and more want to come to Japan to marry a local and settle down and never go back to their own country. It sounds more like they are escaping something back home, or couldn't fit in or some other reason. Of course not everyone is like that, but this group has grown gradually over the years.

I don’t know. Maybe if we post this exact thread another five hundred times we’ll find a definitive answer

The language attracts a lot of people who are interested in Japan due to manga/anime, and those people tend to have poor social skills.

That said, it's all dependent on the community. I've found real life classes to have a great community, and the wanikani forums have a very positive vibe.

The most negative place I've found is this subreddit.