I made a post a while back about my MIL leaving Christmas gifts inside our house despite our wish of no contact.
Curiosity got to my partner and he opened his gift. It turned out to be a children's book about a young boy who is lost and alone and then learns the importance of connection and family and the power of forgiveness.
We were both quite taken aback at the inappropriate nature of this gift. My partner decided to ask FIL to meet up with us so he could return the gifts.
So we met up with FIL in a cafe. It was very hard to actually talk about the situation with him because every time my partner asked a serious question he would go on random tangents about unrelated and unimportant things.
But we did get some insight. Apparently while MIL outwardly made it seem like she was moving out to have some space and reflect the real reason is far more grim.
Apparently after the last physical talk we had with his parents, MIL started to attack FIL when they got home. She said this whole situation was his fault. That he was never strict enough with my partner and that he let him have too much freedom ("You allowed him to read manga!") and that's what led to this situation. That she wanted to divorce him and she didn't want to see him anymore. That's why she moved out. She also allegedly said "I hope you get Parkinson like your father!" a few times to him.
FIL said that she went on a retreat though and she came back a lot calmer and everything was going to be fine now. That she realized that she made a mistake because my partner doesn't want to see her anymore and it is causing her pain, and that she regretted acting like a child in public. But that she worked through these feelings at the retreat and had now forgiven herself for the situation and was now going on a new path, a clean slate.
He says she doesn't really mean the things she says and she has taken them back. That she just doesn't realize what she is doing. That he told her that she should be more mindful of the things she says being hurtful and that we should all just be a bit kinder to each other because life is short.
All of this doesn't sound that positive to me. She again tried to blame someone else instead of herself. It sounds like she regrets how she appeared and the consequences she now has to deal with, but not so much what she did and the pain she has caused. She just regrets that it didn't work. Everything she said is still 100% focused on her and her feelings and her experience.
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RUN from this nightmare.
Her mental health is her concern and nothing that you can fix. And you shouldn’t be pawns in her strange, dangerous drama.
Basically she's forgiven herself and that's the important part, that should be good enough for everyone else and now everybody just needs to get over it.
That is seriously hilarious, and I truly hope that you and your husband are able to laugh over it.
Good job holding to your boundaries and recognizing MIL’s antics for what they are.
You’re not overreacting - “I forgave myself” without actually owning the harm or making amends is just a rebrand, and the gift/book thing reads like pressure to break no contact.
How kind of her to forgive herself for all the pain she caused others. What a saint.
Came to say the same thing! Some serious mental gymnastics there.
To go on a retreat, and to forgive yourself for treating your family like the asshole you are, and thinking THAT is self reflection. Lol. Incredible.
I am so grateful that we live in a time that we can look at our behavior and ask why. Do I have depression? Anxiety? Adhd? Is perimenopause or menopause causing these extremes in my behavior? That we have professionals to go and talk to about this.
There are so many posts on here that it is so fucking clear that the JN has be dealing with decades of untreated WHATEVER and has been ignorant, and often willfully so to point the causing trauma for the whole damn family. And like, just doesnt give a shit, like they are legit terrible people on top of it. But if they were just willing to be open and honest and get some damn genuine therapy they would at least be somewhat bearable to be around, you know?
Yeah she has said therapy would be the absolute last resort she would go to. Because therapy is a scam and they just want to take your money.
Our armchair diagnosis for her would be some flavour of narcicism, since everything is always about her and her feelings and needs. It's like she cannot understand other people are people with feelings. And that won't be fixed by going on a retreat for three days.
New strategies from the same old personality. MIL remains herself, FIL remains her flying monkey.
You should go completely NC with her. You can have the packages returned to sender, you can donate them, or you can just throw them away. She's not going to change.
She could reach out to apologise but yet she hasn’t. I wouldn’t be willing to move forward without that and much less contact overall.
What’s to apologize for now? She’s already received forgiveness from the only person who matters.
Touché! You make an excellent point.
Okay this one made me chuckle. Thank you for that.
Totally agree! It’s wild how she’s more about self-forgiveness than actually taking responsibility for her actions. Classic narcissism.
An apology without an admission of guilt is an insult. She forgave herself but the narcissism hasn’t gone. Her entitlement to think she can forgive herself and that then forces everyone else to forgive is pure insanity. Regardless of FIL advocacy she must personally make amends.
Interesting. She has forgiven herself. She still sounds self absorbed to me.
Totally agree! It sunds like she’s just repackaging her behavior instead of taking real accountability. Classic manipulation move.
Major thing missing here. Where’s your apology?
You mean her apologizing to us?
Yes. Doesn’t seem there’s been any ‘outward’ accountability and apologies for hurting you. Not that you have to accept it but if she really is sorry, you’d think she’d try to apologise?
I think the bare minimum would be for her to recognize that she did in fact cause a lot of hurt, even if she doesn't directly apologize to us. But according to FIL she just regrets how she made herself look and the consequences, no words on what she did wrong and her remorse for causing her son pain.
Then absolutely I wouldn’t entertain any of her bullshit or ego. Theres been no inward reflection here at all. X
Change is hard and doesn't happen overnight. It takes a lot of self insight and a desire to be a better person. Someone who could act the way your MIL acted is very emotionally immature, and she is not likely to change because she's at an age where her behavior is pretty much set in stone. Sure, she might act fine when things are going her way, but the minute she experiences any push back, she'll go back to her old behavior. She must be exhausting.
It is very exhausting. Everyone in the family is always walking on eggshells and adjusting themselves to her to keep the peace.
They've done this for years so for them it's just business as usual. Apparently when MIL was a child she used to bully her younger sister relentlessly. The "funny anecdote" that always gets brought up is that she put cow dung in her sister's new school bag because she was mad her sister got something nice.
As the only outsider I feel like I'm slowly losing sanity. It just seems the whole family system is rotten to the core.
She sounds like the kind of person best interacted with at a distance, through intermediaries. Good job staying NC with her.
This is not a person I would choose in my life.
Believe me, I have no desire to ever see her again. For the past few years I've only gone to family events for my partner's sake.
Totally agree. It sounds like she’s just trying to save face instead of actually owning up to her actions!
Just becase she went doesn’t mean she actually learned anything. Sounds like more deflection than genuine change!
So therapy was a lie, but this retreat is totally legit? Yeah, not buying it.
She did actually go somewhere, she announced it as well in the wider family chat. I do think she went to the retreat.
It sounds like the retreat just taught her what to say, even if she doesn't mean it or understand it.
I think they meant that MIL truly reflecting on her behavior while at the retreat. Then taking accountability for behavior with a real apology.
Well, safe to say there is no real, lasting change. She is only thinking about herself, her appearance, and how things are impacting her. Did she apologize to FIL?
She “doesn’t mean” the horrible things she says? You might want to tell her that those careless words have had a lasting & difficult impact on you (& FIL) and she needs to be more (or she will be the little boy in the story with no one to turn to). I think you are NC, stay NC. Maybe FIL can deliver the message.
Intent can be recognized. Change can begin. I do think it’s possible.
But there’s no evidence here of continued change.
Also, impact is more important than intent here. She intended to hurt FIL and you, and she did. That’s a tantrum. It’s intentional.
But the impact is far greater. Words hurt. You trust her. You took her at face value. You assumed she was telling the truth. And it hurt. You have every right to believe that she’s not a person you want in your life.
Yeah it's strange how the words she "doesn't mean" have always been the same ones over the years.
For the past three years I have had to hear from her how my partner will never be happy with me, that I'm genetically inferior, that my poor upbringing makes me unequal, that I'm a burden, that I'm a golddigger, that I'm taking him away from her, etc.
After more than 3 years of this stuff you do start to take her on her word.
I upvoted to support you emotionally but I push back on you EVER believing this 💩!
Since she feels so free to be open and honest (😀), could you be more assertive too?
“Partner seems real happy to me! Honeeeeey (calling loudly), can you come in here? Your mom’s concerned I don’t make you happy. And I’m a gold digger.” And let Partner shut her down.
“My upbringing made me polite.” (Big smile)
“He’s an adult. He sees everyone he wants. Ever wonder why he doesn’t want to be over here?”
OP, I just saw a sweatshirt with “you are enough” printed on the front. Get one! You are kind enough to worry about a situation whether a rude beeyotch should stay in your life.
Oh if you imply she's doing something wrong she will explode. I've always just been very polite to her even though I know the things she says behind my back (and even sometimes when I'm there and she thinks I cannot hear her).
Then let her explode. Talking behind your back, even when you can hear? Apply the same standard of character you extend to any person: polite, aloof, cordial. But that’s it.
I am madder at her than you are!
Oh believe me I am plenty mad. She's said and done things that are unforgivable in my eyes. It's just that the people around me think it's not that bad so I cannot show my anger really. They would think I'm overreacting or insane probably.
Why haven’t you changed the locks ?
Because BIL co-owns the house and we cannot change the locks without his permission.
Just because he is a co-owner doesn't mean he's entitled to a key to the house. But even if he is, landlord-tenant laws in most states prohibit a landlord (which is what he legally is) from entering the tenant's home without notice, at unreasonable times, etc.
Once you know your rights, you can let him know that if he violates the law again by entering your home without permission, that you are going to press charges. Who knows, he may even appreciate that as it will get him off the hook for doing MIL's bidding, which has to make him super uncomfortable.
Oh I don't think he's uncomfortable doing MIL's bidding. Two peas in a pod they are.
But unfortunately I don't live in the US and I already checked with my lawyer, legally we cannot change the locks, cannot put some sort of barrier that would prevent him from entering.
This sounds like the kind of situation where you change the locks and send him a new key.
The problem is that he then will just give the new key to MIL. He lives with her now, not us.
How about some kind of internal latch to keep her from getting in?
Time for a biometric keypad.
He won’t give permission?
He's definitely more on his mother's side in this. He kinda has to be because he has no money, debts and she is his only way out.
Sounds like you guys need to find the money to move
We're working on it. Unfortunately I'm unemployed at the moment due to a disability and my partner is in school. We have also lost savings because BIL managed to gamble them away.
How does your brother-in-law get a hold of your savings?
He was "managing" the money for my partner because he was supposedly a brilliant financial mind or something.
Oh, wow, she forgave herself, so it's all good now?
No need for anything further. All’s good./s
Sometimes I wonder what would happen if someone asked “If your best friend told you that her MIL was doing the things you did to us to her, what would you say to her, seriously?”
I have often found that the forcing of “look at things objectively/from the POV of someone acting like you are to someone you care about” perspective can sort of reset things. Frequently, people can get snippy about that, and try to maintain that “this is different,” or “what I’m doing is not that bad,” but it can kind of short-circuit the “I’m the victim” loop. Hard to say whether this particular MIL would sincerely get it, no matter what she says. I hope FIL has changed the locks and doesn’t take her back.
I have a feeling this won't work because MIL only seems to care about herself and her own feelings. Every situation is always about her.
You've said you don't want contact. You've returned the gifts. FIL, who has always been her enabler (from your previous) has explained that she's still completely self absorbed and oblivious to the feelings and needs of anyone but herself (which is clear from what he said). So NC is still the obvious route.
You're right that it isn't positive, but expecting anything else is pointless. Just continue NC with her, personally I'd be extremely sparing with any continuity FIL too, live your lives and keep her crap out of them.
FIL really seemed to think that this was all about the last talk where she had the tantrum and not a years long pattern that is the problem.
During the talk he while laughing told this story about my partner buying a baseball as a kid which was his first real big purchase and he was very proud of. But then MIL took it away because she didn't like it. He's sitting there like "haha, isn't she quirky?" While I'm just horrified.
All the more reason to draw a line under this. You can't change the past and you can't control how anyone else thinks or behaves. All you can do going forwards is control what YOU do. You can choose to be part of their soap opera, or not. But you can't choose their script.
She regretted acting like a child in public? This woman acted like a mentally unstable, disturbed adult and has many times before. She’s been violent. You’re terrified of her. That can’t be magically cured by a weekend in the woods talking about her feelings in a group setting.
I read your last post too. His dad is an enabler. BIL is an enabler. The psychologist friend who’s offering advice that is likely against the rules about boundaries and professionalism for his career is an enabler. These friends of his giving their take on the relationship between his mom and himself are wildly out of their depth when she doesn’t show her true self to them. It’s not their business and they’re also enabling her behavior.
Tell your husband to stop telling his friends about issues with his parents and get a therapist. He needs an impartial third party to guide him in how to deal with this situation since no one in his life sees her fully unhinged behavior except you two and FIL. BIL doesn’t count since he’s inherited her violence and anger.
I’m so glad MIL forgave herself./s Don’t let her wiggle out of accountability for this. She’s an unsafe person to be around until she gets medicated or inpatient care or something. One Oprah episode and a church trip to the mountains where she prayed on it will not resolve her issues. Let her back in and she’ll be screaming at you before you know it.
It seems both FIL and MIL seem to think it's about this last "incident" and not a years long pattern that is the problem.
During the talk he while laughing told this story about my partner buying a baseball as a kid which was his first real big purchase and he was very proud of. But then MIL took it away because she didn't like it. He's sitting there like "haha, isn't she quirky?" While I'm just horrified.
Unfortunately my MIL has always told my partner that therapy is a scam and therapists just want to convince you you have problems so they can get more money out of you. So he is very resistant to any outside help.
That baseball story is heartbreaking. She’s not quirky. She’s an unhinged mess. No one should find that story cute or funny and the fact that his dad does is seriously concerning. She’s got him brainwashed. She’s missing empathy and so is her husband apparently.
So your husband’s friends who are old enough to be married see his parents as “surrogate parents” and are talking to him to convince him to forgive her? First of all, everyone is too old for that game. You’re an adult. If you weren’t given the family you needed, you form your own. You don’t use your friend’s parents as a grown adult. It’s odd that these men cling to his parents when they should be making their own families/friends and finding ways to enjoy life on their own. But to tell your husband that her breaking into your home to leave gifts is kind and not overstepping any boundaries? YIKES. Look, I get they like his parents, but their loyalty first and foremost should be to their friend. It almost seems like maybe MIL has continued to push this narrative about her son’s friends as a way to keep him enmeshed with her. Creepy.
Maybe have your husband read these comments and understand that normal people find her actions and behavior to be extremely inappropriate and harmful. That way - it’s not therapy but it’s not anyone who’s already been snowed by his mom into thinking she’s the best mom ever because she sends them birthday cards or calls them (again, SO WEIRD). This is not okay and the longer it goes on, he’s going to sweep it under the rug like he’s been expected to do his whole life, to make things “easier” on everyone. Husband - if you read this… please seek professional help from someone who didn’t grow up with you. There’s no harm in speaking to someone unless you’re truly afraid that they may tell you what you’ve suspected your whole life. That your mom is an enmeshed narcissist who made you responsible for her feelings from day 1 and expects everyone to bow down to her needs and wants.
As for you, I’m so sorry you’re wrapped up in this. Insist husband seek help or offer to pay for couples therapy. I know you’re going through financial issues at the moment, but this seems crucial to your relationship and future. Sending positive energy to you!
My partner's parents are very wealthy, and have had a big house since my partner was a kid. His friends used to chill there most of the time. Therefore being close to his parents. They still visit his parents without my partner being there.
We are all in our late twenties but my partner is the most "serious" one among his friends. They haven't had serious relationships or anything.
I hope you point out to your spouse that his mother's opinion of therapy is as self serving as the rest of her behavior. I don't believe that he values her opinion so much that that's why he won't go to therapy. It's more likely that he has inertia and takes the path of least resistance. Maybe suggest couples therapy as a way in. Regardless, please go for yourself, OP and good luck.
I can relate to this. Life IS short. Too short to allow someone who has recently had a public tantrum access to your life in any meaningful way. Life is too short to put up with someone who isn't sorry and will continue to behave in such a reprehensible manner.
Um, yeah, that’s not how that works. And I love how FIL tells her she needs to be mindful, but then tries to reduce her culpability by claiming that everyone needs to be mindful. And the comment about her not knowing what she’s doing? Better get her a brain evaluation, then. Who gave this retreat? The Rug-Sweeper’s Society?
It was some sort of mindfulness "find your inner self" retreat. I checked the website and it said things like "think with your heart, not your head" and "learn how to protect your boundaries"(she kept saying in the last conversation that we forced her to go over her boundaries and such).
But yeah FIL said that he thought the last talk would be a "everybody made mistakes let's just move on" kind of talk. He said he had no idea what MIL said during the phone calls but that she probably was making badly timed jokes?
Funny thing is that somewhere in the talk je remarks that it was interesting how she could control herself around strangers/non-family, but that thought never went anywhere. He just sort of seemed to think she does have it in her but just needs to learn to do it always.
She be cray cray. She can go over her own boundaries as much as she likes, that’s her choice when they’re her boundaries. She can change them or keep them the same, they’re hers. Again, it’s always someone else’s fault and out of her control, it seems. You “made” her stomp her own boundaries, you meanie. I hope she didn’t pay much for the retreat because it seems like they gave her nothing for her $.
Yeah FIL seems to imply she's as much a victim as us in this whole situation. Because she had a tough upbringing and she doesn't mean it like that and she cannot control herself, etc.
Well, not to negate whatever she might have had to live through because none of us knows another person’s whole life, but it seems to me that it’s just the same lack of accountability. Nothing is ever her fault, it’s always outside forces. It’s your fault, or partner’s fault, or FIL’s fault, or her upbringing’s fault. She needs real therapy, not a feel-good retreat.
🙄🙄🙄 Someone please call 911. My eyes rolled so far back they can't find their way forward again.
Well, that's very nice of her, but it doesn't help you in any way, right?
This is just so ridiculous! She is a grown woman. Of course she realizes what she is doing! This is just the kind of non-apology people like her use to get out of sticky situations. We see this here 100 times a day.
As to the part of being kinder to each other: he obviously means you should be kinder to her and forgive (because she doesn't realize what she is doing).
There is no accountability here. Nothing as changed. You are absolutely right! She's just bummed that she didn't get away with her BS and is now trying something new to get what she wants.
What is going on in their relationship is their business, and they should keep it to themselves to sort out. You have enough problems of your own, thanks to her, that you need to tend to.
Maintaining NC and being watchful is the right decision, good on you!
“Clean slate” forgives herself, “doesn’t realize what she’s doing”….. you’re right. It’s all about her and her feelings, and doesn’t sound like she’s accepting accountability or apologizing. Instead she’s sending gifts suggesting her son is lost and alone. I would not accept her gifts in the future and keep holding strong to the NC. She hasn’t changed, she only regrets her actions because there are consequences. That’s not an apology.