As a former workaholic SLT, I can say that this is part of our jobs, but it is not part of your jobs. Every SLT should be figuring out systems which support the best results without requiring heroes on the front lines. Your supervisor should be telling you to pack up and go home, not to stay later. And if you somehow need to be there late more than a couple of times a term, your support should help fix that problem.
I’ve worked for good bosses who never seemed to leave the school, but didn’t expect others to do the same. Also some who leave exactly on time every day while the teachers keep working.
More common have been the sort who work constantly, don’t mind teachers leaving on time, but have us so booked full of things to do it is impossible to do a passable job without staying late or bringing work home. It’s cool no one minds me leaving at my finish time, but I have 5 or 6 different classes most days so I need to plan, prepare, grade, and write feedback tonight, like most nights.
I was part of the SLT at my last school and this was one of my big issues. We could have happy staff who stay for decades if we make the workload manageable. Explains why it’s my former school, no?
You hit the nail on the head with the part about the incompatible schedule vs your workload. I worked at a school where I had two 40-minute preps everyday. On 4 days per week, the first prep period was occupied by grade team meetings with the AP. The second was my "lunch" (10 AM) after I transitioned kids to their next subject. Then the AP would wonder why the whole grade team was at work after-hours.
The SLT that really annoy me, even more than the workaholics, are the ones that either have never been in a proper classroom or haven't been in one for years and have forgotten what the work is like. Like for our last weekend before grades were due, one of the admin signed off their email with something like "have a restful weekend! don't forget to take care of yourself!" which to me feels like an incredibly clueless thing to say to teacher who are all drowning in work that is due the next Monday. That same admin always jokingly scolds people for working during lunch without acknowledging WHY teachers feel the need to do so.
increasingly my feeling is that if you haven't been in the classroom since COVID, you have to try REALLY hard to relate. things have changed so much since 2019.
This so much this. But also when they can’t see how dogshit the kids behavior is. Had this in Dubai. Shit high school classes of non IB students. Dreadful behavior. ‘Just use your classroom management!’ As soon as they observe the kids are on best behaviour of course. And because they’re not in the classroom and haven’t been for ten years they don’t know how dog awful and tiring it is to get the kids to do any work.
I would not be able to resist responding in kind to both that email, and the joking scold. Taking something like that so lightly is scandalous. I never work outside school (except during report season) and if I don't have time to do it during work hours, it doesn't get done, and it's on management to fix my schedule to give me the time.
I think the worst SLT are those who expect the rest of the SLT to do the work for them, making them look good. Same in any school, not just the international sector.
I wonder about this. I've worked in schools and I don't want to make a generalized statement about a country but I worked in a British school (i'm not British) and I was taken back by many who it seemed like they live to work. My immediate thought is, we're teachers - we're not splitting the atom here, What is everyone doing that they feel they must spend most of their waking hours "working". Maybe it's a time management issue...i'm kidding but wow but who I am to say how to spend your days.
Personally, I’ve seen the opposite - most of my British colleagues left the UK because of workload issues, and have become more “work to live” than anything. Most US colleagues, though, have been the opposite - more stressed because they can’t effectively shut the door and leave it all in the classroom at the end of the day.
possibly. i think i also see a growing culture of schools being all things to all people. we've started a push for social-emotional learning that means teachers are content experts but also need to teach students a whole other set of things, and moderate discussion circles, etc etc.
This has been my big sticking point lately. The homeroom/ wellbeing/ community time takes so long to prep. As a secondary teacher, I have to be qualified to teach my subject. But when it comes to social-emotional learning, sex ed, or other super personally or culturally sensitive topics, anyone can do it! Here's a pdf from 2015 for you!
Yes it really should! But at my school it is also left to the teachers to plan for in addition to their already heavy workload. Last year we had to give up our only break or lunch period to meet and create slides for our lessons! The pdf we had to use was indeed completely outdated. Counselors seem to be there to stand in the hall and wait to do damage control from classrooms but aren't responsible for any grading, classes, paperwork or regular schedules. Quite an uneven display of workload if you ask me. There are too many schools operating with things running this way. SLT are definitely not in touch with the amount of work real educators have to do. It's all become quite corporate in hierarchical structure with the middle management set.
Yeah, SEL, small groups, should be the role of the counselor and not doing damage control. The SEL and small groups would hopefully reduce "damage control". Sounds like a systems problem.
The management team at the “school” I work at are last in first out. They look busy but don’t do much. They very much enjoy creating work but not doing much. I imagine this is the only school in the world where this happens.
You know Nord Anglia has a reputation among academics for where old white stale people go to enjoy the boys club SLT life and avoid any accountability lmao?
This is a masterfully loaded question but yeah. I generally don't go above and beyond and my boss who does definitely makes me feel bad for it. He told me once he worked from 4am to midnight for a week. I'm good.
It's a bit of a "if you're friends jumped off a bridge would you?" situation. Just because everyone around you is overworking like crazy doesn't mean you need to. Unfortunately some people may hate you for it.
Singapore American school comes to mind. We don’t want long lasting members of staff. We want one or two contracts with people we can burn through and replace.
Which is administrative being completely removed from the student experience. Long term, happy teachers lead to better learning. Someone who doesn’t know much about the community or the student population but will burn themselves for random irrelevant initiatives by admin doesn’t benefit students. A long term employee who knows the strengths, weaknesses, needs and wants of the students and parents is a more beneficial asset.
Personally, I have worked both in places where there is no expectation other than to sign in and out at the right times with no events out of school time, etc, and places that expect much more. In all honesty, I don't mind either as long as it is clear and transparent from the beginning what the expectations are. I worked at a school where it was common to arrive early and leave late, plus use many weekends, but that was clear from the beginning and they paid very well. I took it on and never understood why some people complalined when it had been very clear from the beginning. I am in a different moment of my life now, where I value my family time and I would not work for a school like that. Again, I think it comes down to schools being upfront and clear about what the expectations and work culture is like.
I don't see workaholic SLT but I do see overworked teaching colleagues. The reduced quality of life is real for teachers who are picking up the slack from coworkers that have ingratiated themselves to the right person and don't have to perform their job duties. I routinely witness one colleague working through every block, break, and lunch while another is chatting in the teacher's lounge and having coffee for most of the day. SLT are not in touch with what is going on in the classrooms due to their busy schedules of attending conferences or figuring out which consultants to spend our PD money on.
As an admin I have different expectations from others in leadership and teachers. Staying a teacher is usually a conscious choice after a certain point in someone's career. It makes no sense to expect someone who signed up for short work days and 2-3 months of paid vacation to work like a dog. They aren't paid for it, and the only thing it does is lower morale.
Someone else in this thread mentioned the extroverts who like to loudly take credit for the efforts of those under them. I knew a fellow SLT just like this. He was convinced that he was a "transformative leader" when in reality everyone hated his guts and his management style tanked the school culture.
Doesn't depend on the number of hours worked and clocking in and clocking out times. It's more about how demanding the work is. Teachers are on the frontlines, standing up teaching, marking, creating resources, dealing with academic and pastoral issues daily, contacting parents etc. They may also have a tutor group, ECA (maybe more than 1) and in some schools, may have to coach a sport.
You compare that to SLT, who's job is predominantly desk based and may have an assistant. I think we all know who works harder in the traditional sense of the word.
If you learn how to invest your money, the responsibility allowances they get are chump change vs the returns gained from simple ETF investing and compound interest.
As a workaholic and I’m not slt yes, but it’s never easy, if you want easy go to a public school where you’re used as commercial bait that pretends to be a teacher, schools push us hard but tbh I like it it makes me feel good
As a former workaholic SLT, I can say that this is part of our jobs, but it is not part of your jobs. Every SLT should be figuring out systems which support the best results without requiring heroes on the front lines. Your supervisor should be telling you to pack up and go home, not to stay later. And if you somehow need to be there late more than a couple of times a term, your support should help fix that problem.
Should be . But unfortunately many do not.
I’ve worked for good bosses who never seemed to leave the school, but didn’t expect others to do the same. Also some who leave exactly on time every day while the teachers keep working. More common have been the sort who work constantly, don’t mind teachers leaving on time, but have us so booked full of things to do it is impossible to do a passable job without staying late or bringing work home. It’s cool no one minds me leaving at my finish time, but I have 5 or 6 different classes most days so I need to plan, prepare, grade, and write feedback tonight, like most nights.
I was part of the SLT at my last school and this was one of my big issues. We could have happy staff who stay for decades if we make the workload manageable. Explains why it’s my former school, no?
You hit the nail on the head with the part about the incompatible schedule vs your workload. I worked at a school where I had two 40-minute preps everyday. On 4 days per week, the first prep period was occupied by grade team meetings with the AP. The second was my "lunch" (10 AM) after I transitioned kids to their next subject. Then the AP would wonder why the whole grade team was at work after-hours.
The SLT that really annoy me, even more than the workaholics, are the ones that either have never been in a proper classroom or haven't been in one for years and have forgotten what the work is like. Like for our last weekend before grades were due, one of the admin signed off their email with something like "have a restful weekend! don't forget to take care of yourself!" which to me feels like an incredibly clueless thing to say to teacher who are all drowning in work that is due the next Monday. That same admin always jokingly scolds people for working during lunch without acknowledging WHY teachers feel the need to do so.
increasingly my feeling is that if you haven't been in the classroom since COVID, you have to try REALLY hard to relate. things have changed so much since 2019.
Omg, I think you must work at my school. This literally just happened two weeks ago 😆
This so much this. But also when they can’t see how dogshit the kids behavior is. Had this in Dubai. Shit high school classes of non IB students. Dreadful behavior. ‘Just use your classroom management!’ As soon as they observe the kids are on best behaviour of course. And because they’re not in the classroom and haven’t been for ten years they don’t know how dog awful and tiring it is to get the kids to do any work.
I would not be able to resist responding in kind to both that email, and the joking scold. Taking something like that so lightly is scandalous. I never work outside school (except during report season) and if I don't have time to do it during work hours, it doesn't get done, and it's on management to fix my schedule to give me the time.
Yes, people sometime confuse motion for accomplishment.
Astute. Success is not always what you see:
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jBWnzZ_08s4/T886ABxr4JI/AAAAAAAAACg/mLNpFp3Ftk4/s1600/Success-is-not-always-what-you-see.jpg
I think the worst SLT are those who expect the rest of the SLT to do the work for them, making them look good. Same in any school, not just the international sector.
The same applies to bad HODs who use their role to drive initiatives that increase teacher workloads only serve to enhance their own career prospects.
Yes. And this happens in all schools, not just British or Nord Anglia ones, and in all careers too.
It’s essentially the usual extrovert “look at me! Look at me!” demands compared with the introvert who just gets on with things quietly.
I wonder about this. I've worked in schools and I don't want to make a generalized statement about a country but I worked in a British school (i'm not British) and I was taken back by many who it seemed like they live to work. My immediate thought is, we're teachers - we're not splitting the atom here, What is everyone doing that they feel they must spend most of their waking hours "working". Maybe it's a time management issue...i'm kidding but wow but who I am to say how to spend your days.
Personally, I’ve seen the opposite - most of my British colleagues left the UK because of workload issues, and have become more “work to live” than anything. Most US colleagues, though, have been the opposite - more stressed because they can’t effectively shut the door and leave it all in the classroom at the end of the day.
I've had the exact opposite experience. I don't wnat to generalize but it had me thinking.
possibly. i think i also see a growing culture of schools being all things to all people. we've started a push for social-emotional learning that means teachers are content experts but also need to teach students a whole other set of things, and moderate discussion circles, etc etc.
This has been my big sticking point lately. The homeroom/ wellbeing/ community time takes so long to prep. As a secondary teacher, I have to be qualified to teach my subject. But when it comes to social-emotional learning, sex ed, or other super personally or culturally sensitive topics, anyone can do it! Here's a pdf from 2015 for you!
This should be the role of the school counselor.
Yes it really should! But at my school it is also left to the teachers to plan for in addition to their already heavy workload. Last year we had to give up our only break or lunch period to meet and create slides for our lessons! The pdf we had to use was indeed completely outdated. Counselors seem to be there to stand in the hall and wait to do damage control from classrooms but aren't responsible for any grading, classes, paperwork or regular schedules. Quite an uneven display of workload if you ask me. There are too many schools operating with things running this way. SLT are definitely not in touch with the amount of work real educators have to do. It's all become quite corporate in hierarchical structure with the middle management set.
Yeah, SEL, small groups, should be the role of the counselor and not doing damage control. The SEL and small groups would hopefully reduce "damage control". Sounds like a systems problem.
What counselor?
The management team at the “school” I work at are last in first out. They look busy but don’t do much. They very much enjoy creating work but not doing much. I imagine this is the only school in the world where this happens.
Yup. Avoid Brits in blue suits and brown shoes and white Nord Anglia try hard psychopaths.
I don't trust any white people in general. When I catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror, I get suspicious.
As a non-practicing white person I agree.
What a ridiculous statement.
You know Nord Anglia has a reputation among academics for where old white stale people go to enjoy the boys club SLT life and avoid any accountability lmao?
Pretty spot on here.
This is a masterfully loaded question but yeah. I generally don't go above and beyond and my boss who does definitely makes me feel bad for it. He told me once he worked from 4am to midnight for a week. I'm good.
It's a bit of a "if you're friends jumped off a bridge would you?" situation. Just because everyone around you is overworking like crazy doesn't mean you need to. Unfortunately some people may hate you for it.
Singapore American school comes to mind. We don’t want long lasting members of staff. We want one or two contracts with people we can burn through and replace.
Which is administrative being completely removed from the student experience. Long term, happy teachers lead to better learning. Someone who doesn’t know much about the community or the student population but will burn themselves for random irrelevant initiatives by admin doesn’t benefit students. A long term employee who knows the strengths, weaknesses, needs and wants of the students and parents is a more beneficial asset.
IMO SAS is corporate. They will say they care, but their actions and the fruit of those actions show the truth.
I was just asked to do more and more and now I’m changing schools.
Personally, I have worked both in places where there is no expectation other than to sign in and out at the right times with no events out of school time, etc, and places that expect much more. In all honesty, I don't mind either as long as it is clear and transparent from the beginning what the expectations are. I worked at a school where it was common to arrive early and leave late, plus use many weekends, but that was clear from the beginning and they paid very well. I took it on and never understood why some people complalined when it had been very clear from the beginning. I am in a different moment of my life now, where I value my family time and I would not work for a school like that. Again, I think it comes down to schools being upfront and clear about what the expectations and work culture is like.
Policies that take up hours of teachers times but doesnt impact the learning of the students. These are the worse.
Sometimes these policies exist so the SLT can justify what theyve done this term to someone to prove they are doing something.
Things get added to my workload every term. My amount of free time is still the same. Dont be surprised when some things arent done.
Cant wait to leave.
I don't see workaholic SLT but I do see overworked teaching colleagues. The reduced quality of life is real for teachers who are picking up the slack from coworkers that have ingratiated themselves to the right person and don't have to perform their job duties. I routinely witness one colleague working through every block, break, and lunch while another is chatting in the teacher's lounge and having coffee for most of the day. SLT are not in touch with what is going on in the classrooms due to their busy schedules of attending conferences or figuring out which consultants to spend our PD money on.
As an admin I have different expectations from others in leadership and teachers. Staying a teacher is usually a conscious choice after a certain point in someone's career. It makes no sense to expect someone who signed up for short work days and 2-3 months of paid vacation to work like a dog. They aren't paid for it, and the only thing it does is lower morale.
Someone else in this thread mentioned the extroverts who like to loudly take credit for the efforts of those under them. I knew a fellow SLT just like this. He was convinced that he was a "transformative leader" when in reality everyone hated his guts and his management style tanked the school culture.
a bit like asking if plantation owners were a bit tough on their slaves. the answer is obviously yes
Doesn't depend on the number of hours worked and clocking in and clocking out times. It's more about how demanding the work is. Teachers are on the frontlines, standing up teaching, marking, creating resources, dealing with academic and pastoral issues daily, contacting parents etc. They may also have a tutor group, ECA (maybe more than 1) and in some schools, may have to coach a sport.
You compare that to SLT, who's job is predominantly desk based and may have an assistant. I think we all know who works harder in the traditional sense of the word.
If you learn how to invest your money, the responsibility allowances they get are chump change vs the returns gained from simple ETF investing and compound interest.
lol yes
Sounds about right.
100%
I mean...
As a workaholic and I’m not slt yes, but it’s never easy, if you want easy go to a public school where you’re used as commercial bait that pretends to be a teacher, schools push us hard but tbh I like it it makes me feel good