Disclaimer: I’ve posted this on a few different subreddits so far as I find it interesting to discuss this kind of thing with different sorts of people. I imagine this sub will be more receptive, but who knows.
Here goes:
I’ve seen a few posts on social media recently with a “look at these women’s unreasonable standards” slant, for lack of better phrasing. Specifically those street interviews with (usually drunk) young women listing their standards for potential partners including height, salary, race, et cetera. The interviewer then calls them fat or whatever. That’ll show ‘em.
I take responsibility for my algorithm responding to my hate-clicking on these by showing me more of them, but I’ve been itching to give my two cents on this topic for awhile now. So, here I am.
Let’s start by getting the outliers out of the way. If you’re 5’0, dramatically ugly, have a micropenis, or are otherwise severely impaired in a way that is out of your control, I can wrap my head around the fact that attracting women would be more challenging than usual. I still don’t think you’re doomed, but I’m also not trying to pick on any of you. I get it.
The recently coined “male loneliness epidemic” would suggest that this topic spreads beyond those sorts of folk, however. As a result, I’m mainly talking to the “average” gentleman who tries his hand at dating, has a bad experience or two, calls it quits and blames it all on women.
I am also not ignorant to the fact that there are some shallow, ill-intentioned women out there. I’ve met them. I’ve dated them! They exist, they suck. But I think to suggest that all or even most women think that way is ridiculous.
So that brings me to my two main points. If you’re struggling with women, it is either because you need to work on yourself, or you are looking in the wrong places.
First, the former. A little about me:
I am 5’7, broke, and a total nerd. If you take a look at my account you can see ample evidence of this.
I’ve gone through two very distinct periods of my life. One in which I was unsuccessful with women, and one in which I was successful. I did not suddenly sprout to 6’2, land a high-paying job and grow an 8” dick to achieve the latter. So, what changed?
I used to be a complete shut-in, to put it bluntly. The vast majority of my time was spent playing video games, browsing social media and gooning. I wasn’t taking care of my health or hygiene, and was completely directionless school and work-wise.
I also had an incredibly shitty attitude. I was deeply cynical, always felt I was the smartest guy in the room, and actively avoided any in-person social interaction. I locked myself in my little echo chamber with my role playing games, hot pockets and porn, and had the audacity to wonder why women wouldn’t pay any attention to me. I fell into the usual “she should just love me for me” trap, which is, I’m sorry, complete bullshit.
I won’t stray into bragging territory, but suffice to say the last few years have yielded different results women-wise. The best part? I’m still me!
I still play video games, I still listen to, play and write about prog metal, I still read exclusively sci-fi and fantasy novels, and boy am I fucking outspoken about all of that.
I also, however, got in shape. I went back to school. I tried harder at work. I put myself out there socially. I fostered an interest in people other than myself.
I’m still “me”, but a much better version of me. And suddenly, I wasn’t struggling so much anymore.
Women typically don’t care if you play video games, man. They care if you ONLY play video games. Is it really so unreasonable to want your partner to take care of themself, be kind to the people around them and have some sort of direction in their life? Or to want them to at least TRY to exhibit those qualities? I don’t think so.
“I’ve met women who say playing video games is childish, and they’d refuse to date someone over that.”
Onto point number two. Where are you looking for these women?
If you’re just trying to get laid, no judgment man. Go to the bars, the clubs, hop on tinder. Do your thing. Nothing wrong with that, and there’s good people there too!
But if you’re constantly digesting media telling you that women only care about your height, wallet and dick size, surrounding yourself with friends who buy into that shit and strive towards those superficialities, and pushing those qualities forward in your own personality in an attempt to attract women…..who do you think you’re going to attract?
Join a club. Make some friends with similar interests. Judge less, listen more. Get used to hearing “no” a lot. No matter what, remain friendly. You’ll bump into the right person.
Dating apps aren’t all bad either. I’ll admit they’re definitely slanted towards better-looking people, but you’d be surprised how much control a person genuinely has over their appearance if they put in a bit of effort. Regardless, apps like Hinge provide ample opportunity for self-expression so you can find folks with similar interests, beliefs and goals.
But if you scour nightclubs until you find someone impressed by your nice watch, Robinhood portfolio and sports car you rented for the evening, you might attract the exact kind of person you keep bitching about. Whose fault is that, ultimately?
Anyways, to summarize my thoughts on this bluntly:
If you are a cynical, unmotivated, disheveled person who cares not but for his niche interests, either grow up or get used to your self-induced loneliness.
And if the only kinds of women you’re interacting with are shallow and superficial, that is a reflection of you. That’s not said to excuse those women, but to emphasize that not all women are like that. You’re looking in the wrong places.
lol i wanna see what the askmen subs said about it.
That all of us are man haters...despite being men ourselves lol.
I knew you were a man because you wrote so much and so well. Woman are more tiktok brained and small bytes. Little photos, little meme comments.
Uhm....weird
You have been permanently banned from r/AskMen.
The following may have contributed to this ban: A mod had a tantrum and lost his screen privileges.
lol that happened a long time ago to me.
Wailing and gnashing of teeth.
something something misandry.
Man that sub took a complete 180 over my years on this app
Honestly? Tough to break through a lot of their content filters, especially if you’re not a regular participant. I’m working with mods on a few different subs to try and get it approved in more places. I got one through the trueunpopularopinion sub, if you want to check there. Lots of arguing.
Edit: also changemyview, and malelifestyle
Preach. At least 90% percent of the people who claim to be incels are actually volcels. They don’t put effort into trying to succeed despite their limitations, instead they put a fuck ton of effort into arguing with strangers online.
As everyone else has said, 100% preaching to the choir and all that and I want to touch on a few points for emphasis.
Incels refuse to do the former out of ego and obsess about the later to confirm their worldview (i.e. the shallowness of dating apps.) They want to believe every man wants to be "Chad," every woman wants to be with "Chad," and vice-versa with "Stacy." Anyone who says otherwise is "lying."
"Despite" your height, finances and interests, you didn't give up and instead worked to get your shit together to be a better version of yourself, which is anathema and contradictory to everything incels/inceldom is about. I know for a fact from a similar situation as a teenager and my story of simply working at a local grocery store proves it both in what it did for me (mentally, socially, physically, financially,) and incels' responses to said story (that they're "too UGLY to be given cookies! 😭😭😭" as a customer baked homemade cookies for me as thanks for helping her daughter which were ACTIONS rather than appearance-based, focusing on whether sex with a customer "ascended" me or not and that I'm "still an incel-in-denial as the landwhale didn't count" when I never even said what she looked like 🙃)
It bears repeating both that one of my best friends (who is also not tall and Wesley Snipes-level dark Black,) realized his wife was "The One" after a night of binging on Marvel movies and anime, have been happily married for years and can play video games without issue after a long day at work; and that the whole "cope" claim is illogical nonsense to simultaneously feel guilty about what they like and gatekeep at the same time (women are faux-fans only claiming to be into something to chase "Chad" yet "Chad" is supposedly too cool/busy fucking and mogging to be into said thing so...?)
Nope, but incels both spin women as having unreasonably high standards and resent having to get their shit together in the first place. Same king baby mentality as their dead idiot "saint" who despite being effortlessly rich and handsome, was so full of himself to expect pretty white women to throw themselves at him on sight that he never actually TALKED to them, so one literally had no idea who he was, let alone his crush on her until after he died (a stupid, pointless death.) He sooner wasted time throwing pity parties and seething at happy couples minding their own business than do the bare minimum and would've continued living as a spoiled douche if he did.
Which incels aren't, really. Sex isn't just sex to them, it's "supposed" to be some magical, transcendent experience that'll cure all their issues (especially the ones only in their imagination,) and make them superstars in life. This absurd view of sex thus is guaranteed to lead to disaster if they ever do get laid, (paid or not,) because now it won't live up to such absurd hype, which only makes them more miserable and cope harder to avoid personal responsibility.
Which really sums up not only the kind of women incels want, but how alien the concept of love is to incels (to the point I've thought about writing a whole thread on it.) They basically want a shallow trophy girlfriend... but still want her to be a Manic Pixie Dream Girl bangmaid faithfully dedicated to them. 🤨🙃
Respect that they as fellow sentient humans have the right to say "no" and not take it personally that they said "no" because despite the above belief about "Chad" and "Stacy," nobody is for everybody. The exact same individual can be "too much/little/just right" to others' individual tastes.
Well said.
Relevant background: sampling bias.
When a manosphere influncer prattles on about how all the women he dates are just out to use a man for his money, or women are irrational, it's a self-own. Doesn't take much reading between the lines to infer he's repelling the rational women who have better values.
To be fair a decent bit of the "blame" can usually get put on the parents but parents fuck you up one way or another and we all have to learn better ways as adults to compensate for those situations.
Staying off gender baiting internet is a huge positive step though. Thoughts are like grass if you focus on or water negative thoughts you life just gets more negative.
Your preaching to the choir here, this group is pretty much just people making fun of incels and their ridiculous disgusting viewpoints. You should post this somewhere where all the incels are, like askmen (not sure why it’s turned into that but yeah it is) there are lots thanks for your input though and I can say we all agree
Oh I have, and have been throwing digital hands with folks ever since.
I suppose my main goal with posting here was to get the perspective of people I assumed would agree with me. If you guys thought I was full of shit as well, then maybe I’d be full of shit all around lol
I have one slight disagreement: having a micro penis should have zero impact on your ability to get laid because people are generally not seeing your penis until they’ve already decided that they want to have sex with you.
That’s what I thought.
However, the small penis problems subreddit is littered with stories about folks being turned down at the point of sex due to their size.
Can’t speak to the validity of stories from internet strangers, but that’s what they’re saying.
Yeah , I'm betting micropenis plus a selfish prick cause really getting turned down at that point just means they are unwilling to put in the effort to ensure pleasure.
If you get naked with someone and they change their mind, it's almost certainly for a reason other than your natural body, maybe something you’ve done.
A quick glance at that sub and it seems to be mostly (though not entirely) incels. On a post by a woman asking for advice on sex with her small boyfriend, like half the comments are telling her that she'll leave him for a chad.
So I'd take anything they say with a major grain of salt.
Your thinking is line with my own, I just have a hard time saying “this is/is not true” in regard to an anecdote from someone on the internet.
I mean, to be fair, the story in my original post could be 100% fabricated bullshit. You’re all giving me the benefit of the doubt, though, which I appreciate.
My account also has some glow-up photos though lol, maybe that’s enough corroboration.
A few years ago, I had a roommate who was doing the Tinder/church/meetup circuit, trying to find a girlfriend. He wasn't really having success, I suspect mostly because he wasn't putting much effort in. I told him that, to find a girlfriend, he needed to become someone that women would like. Not become a poser, or superficial, but become a better version of himself. Like you did, OP. Find people who shared interests with you. Hit the gym. Get out and meet people.
He looked at me like I was speaking gibberish, slapped on some more cologne, and headed out. I don't know if he ever found success, I moved away 3 years ago.
My gripe is that a lot of advice like this makes it seem like self improvement is a linear progression, which just frustrates people who are struggling. In my experience self-improvement is mostly trial and error (mostly errors), and it can actually take a very long time of experimentation to find yourself.
The video game terminology incels and a lot of terminally online types use in general seems to me to be a major hindrance to their ability to find human connection. People made of blood and bone don't have dialogue trees, but I think a lot of people who think that self improvement "doesn't work" genuinely see people as working like NPCs.
This is dead-on. They always seem to be looking for ‘cheat codes’ and shit that will get them to their end goal without putting in actual work.
Obviously millions of people play video games with no ill effects, but I do wonder if there’s research on how they can negatively impact certain types of personalities.
Seems like something that would be worth researching honestly. I hate saying this, but it might be related to autism spectrum disorders, might also be linked to social media inducing isolation. But I might be dealing with tunnel vision given the circles I inhabit on and offline, and I don't claim to have done any research.
I don’t claim to have done any research either, but I suspect a lot of them have self-diagnosed as being autistic because they think it excuses their behaviour.
That, and they all seem to want to blame their situation on something beyond their control, because it absolves them of doing any self-improvement. It’s the same reason they fixate on height — if they’re single because they’re short, then they can remain victims forever and not have to work on their noxious personalities.
Even if it's related to autism, are autistic women doing the same thing? I think not.
Either way, gender plays into it.
Well, duh. But that's not like autistic women are much better off. Autistic men struggle to read the room before making a human connection. Autistic women struggle to sus out the creeps and predators before allowing themselves to make a human connection.
Perhaps I could’ve gone more in detail regarding my experience with “trial and error”, as I agree that progress certainly isn’t linear. I felt the post was self-indulgent enough as it was, though.
In any case, it’s imperative that a person who’s interested in self betterment engage with that process regardless of its difficulty. Yes, you’ll fail a lot until you find what works for you. Better than not trying at all.
I think most people here agree with most of what you’re saying.
I’m quite convinced that the vast majority of incels choose to remain incels. Everything they do suggests that they prefer the relative comfort of the crab bucket — where they’re surrounded by others reinforcing their victim mentality — to actually making even minor lifestyle changes to improve their lot in life.
Inceldom is definitely a choice.
From the fact that regular, if not conventionally ugly men have done fine "despite" not meeting whatever nonsense "requirements" incels claim men need to the sheer amount of nonsense incels invent to insulate themselves to some outright admitting they remain in the bucket under peer pressure to not be labeled "fakecel" by their "brothers," the incel mentality is 100% VOLUNTARY.
I think we should normalize men accepting the reality that women just simply do not like them, because letting them stew in their feelings just leads to them becoming incels
Let me add this to the discourse, as it may be about dating in non monogamous spaces, but the Valley of the Dolls rings very true:
https://freaksexual.com/2009/11/05/nonmonogamy-for-men-the-big-picture/
I think a lot of the writer's observations about how attraction and partner selection work (generally) for men and women and how societal and cultural ideas play into those things were apt even in monogamous hetero-sexual spaces. They identified most of the key behaviors and attitudes/fantasy belief systems men have that instantly stop any chance of a woman being attracted to them or giving them any further "chances". Anyway, I really enjoyed reading it, and I think it's very relevant to this kind of conversation, so thank you for sharing!
I think a larger percentage of incels than you think are part of what you called "outliers". They now have spaces for talking about their experiences. That wasn't a thing before.
You are completely correct. But I frankly gave up. I accepted that I will never be the man women would want to be with and so I just won´t try anymore. Im boring, ugly, broke and cynical. There are a ton of better men out there, why in the world would they choose me when I wasted so much of my time and potential.
And no. I don´t want to try anything anymore. I don´t want to go to therapy. I don´t want to get better, I want to get worse, cuz that´s what I deserve.
I wish I could upvote this more. What a brilliant summation of things.
is dating for straight people really that easy?
I'm queer and I wouldn't really categorise myself as having "trouble" but I still feel like finding a partner requires a massive dose of luck. I would never assume someone who has trouble finding one just is undesirable or whatever..
Posts like these make it sound like its just super easy for straight people. Is it cause theres a lot more options?
It’s easier for some than for others.
The goal of this post isn’t to suggest that dating is easy. It’s more to promote personal accountability, and combat the notion that a person (primarily a straight man, in this case) is at the mercy of forces outside of their control (women’s unrealistic standards) when it comes to dating.
If, when confronted with failure, a person reflects on what they could do to improve their outcome next time around, I think they are more likely to succeed over time than the person who says “ah shucks, that’s just the way things are.”
I'm a 5'9" fat autistic nerd who was under the poverty line for most of my adult life. I have all of the nerdy hobbies.
I have had a ridiculous amount of fortune with women who incels would consider way out of my league. In fact, I am the kind of guy that incels would claim "it's over".
But I am fun, funny, I have interesting things to say, and I do my best to be a good man. And when I get with a woman, I get a lot of repeat business.
It's not rocket science.
Explain the fact that I've only had one partner the last 18 years
You got married to them and have been together all this time?
That is true
This kind of lumps incels together with men who simply struggle with dating in general. And the whole “work on yourself” bit… gee willickers, why didn’t I think of that? Do people not realise there are plenty of men genuinely working on themselves and still having no success?
And why is the focus always on the men with supposedly terrible standards, but never on the women?
I get what you’re trying to say, but the broad generalisations and the groundbreaking “just work on yourself” advice don’t really help. For all the criticism the Red Pill community gets, at least there’s an element of honesty in what they put forward (with regards to accepting reality ).
I think part of why working on yourself "doesn't work", is just the way people see it. They seem to think of it as being this video game thing where you're constantly level grinding your way into a first date, but that isn't it at all. They think they're being expected to build their skill levels and gather loot just to get any positive attention from women.
Meanwhile, most guys who do work on themselves and find partners do so by trying to realign their worldviews and increasing their capacity for self control and emotional stability.
Working on yourself goes far beyond just physical aspects, such as hygiene, it also includes mental hygiene.
The media you consume informs and reinforces your perspective on the world around you.
By doing the work to deconstruct negative biases about yourself and women, it improves your behavior and how you interact with people.
Most of the men who aren't able to date successfully are not doing the mental health care that they need to not fall into the toxic cycles and circles they choose to be in by not being willing to change for the better.
I know it’s a long post, but I do cover most of this.
I’m not talking to men who work on themselves, I’m mainly talking to men who’ve given up and blame it all on women. I make that clear in the first couple of paragraphs.
I also comment on women with shallow standards.
In short - I suggest that while those women certainly exist, they’re fewer in number than what’s made out to be in popular media.
A person who regularly encounters them might simply be looking in the wrong places, or using tactics that are likely to attract that kind of shallow person.
Thank you for this. -Woman
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I'm married now, so obviously no issues, but I used to find it very hard to talk to women due to PTSD issues. There are many reasons why it might be hard and it's not necessarily one's own fault
You make a lot of really good points. My one issue is I think this is more specifically the case with incels, not just men who struggle with finding women.
There are plenty of men out there with issues they have little to no control over that make dating difficult. People with mental illnesses and/or CPTSD, for example, often have a more difficult time with relationships.
I understand this, and trying to go out more (was only going to gym so i wasnt able to meet anubody). But do you think that height is really a factor ? I'm 5'2 (158 cm)
I agree with your tips, but this is not enough really. Women feel safe enough with me to befriend me or come to my house (college friends), they can compliment how they like me when I was their personal bodyguard in a club keeping old creeps away from them, they can compliment how they like guy who cook and clean the house by himself, and I can have my shit together. I can have external activities (martial arts classes). I have enough outgoing friends to host parties for them
And yet nobody is interested in me romantically. The bottleneck is where to meet new people, as based on reddit comments it's creepy and annoying for them to talk with random women, and apps are trash even if I manage to get a match every few days.
Soo, yeah, screw me ig
It’s not creepy or annoying to talk to a random woman. It’s creepy and annoying if you approach in a way that feels unnatural or overtly sexual, or if you linger after failing to read their body language/social cues asking you to step away.
Apps are tough, and aren’t for everybody. No disagreement there.
While I sympathize with what you’re saying, I’d gently suggest you deepen your self analysis. You’ve listed all of the reasons why you think you’d make a good romantic partner based on feedback you’ve received from women. Have you asked any of them why you don’t make the cut for romantic partner? Do you have a good enough relationship with any of them to get an honest answer outside of “I just view you as a friend”?
I don't think I need deeper answer from them. My thinking is pretty simple: attraction is here or isn't here, and turns out it isn't here. Nothing to think about.
I mean, I am pretty sure there isn't bucket list with "If he had this one feature I'd date him". I assume there is "His set of features is interesting, I think we have a spark here". I doubt I will get different answer from them than "idk, I don't feel it". Tell me if I'm wrong
Tough to say as I don’t know you personally, although I’m fairly confident the answer isn’t as simple as “attraction isn’t here.”
Be it the way you present yourself, the things you say, the people you surround yourself with, I’m sure there’s something you could adjust that’d increase your chances of success.
Ouch?