So I am 25 male and a virgin
Today, I feel a sudden frustration about being a kissless virgin today. I usually go through waves of me feeling secure and then feeling insecure, about this. But today it is particularly bad about this for some reason
I feel like the main reason is because I feel like I do mostly everything right but women never sexually desire me:
- I am not scared of women. They are very easy to talk to and to me they are easier to talk to than men, even those that are extremely attractive. This has resulted in me having mostly female friends and even some model female friends that have 50-100k+ IG followers.
- I dress good. For a long time, I used to dress sloppy(like old graphic tees with basketball shorts or old hoodies) but now I get nice clothes from ross/Burlington/Macys and wear that every day, and I get complements on the occasion from people, which does make me feel good.
- I do shower every day, I use a very nice smelling fancy soaps. I do not smell bad.
- I do not think that I am objectively ugly nor can I point out a single feature of mine that would make me ugly. I am not fat, I am not short, I have a full nice head of hair, I have good eyebrows and good eyelashes. Worst I can say is that I am skinny but even then that can be easily fixed and I have seen skinny guys get women
Despite all of this, I have never been flirted with by a woman, I have never been crushed on by a woman, I have never heard a rumor of a woman liking me, I feel undesired. 25 years of this is a statistical anomaly which doesn't make sense to me. They seem very interested in my life and we have good conversations but then the relationship stays platonic and then they go up to other guys and flirt with them. Now I do not hate them for doing this(they are my friends after all) but it is still very frustrating.
I have asked female friends about this and still haven't gotten good advice as they are as confused as I am. They can't find any flaws about me and they say stuff like, "just keep waiting" "itll come when you least expect it". I recently asked one of my male friends and he were actually straight up shocked and thought I was trolling him. He noted that he would have never guessed it based on the fact that he knows that I am around a lot of women. I have also talked to him and some of my other male friends and they started dating their partner because their partner initiated first and then they took it and lead the way since. They specifically also said that they would only go for women that like them and then they would lead the way from there
So this leaves me here. I posted this here immediately because I felt a sudden rage inside me and I don't want to turn into an incel
TL;DR: I’m a 25-year-old kissless virgin who feels frustrated and undesired. I’m confident around women, have many female friends, dress well, practice good hygiene, and don’t think I’m unattractive—but I’ve never been flirted with or shown romantic interest. Things always stay platonic, and neither my female nor male friends can explain why, which makes it especially confusing and discouraging.
you mention that you've never been flirted with, but not how often you're flirting with women, so i'm curious, how much of that are you doing?
It's pretty hard for me to do so. I'll tell you a story, I had met a very attractive woman in Miami in my hostel last week, I had a flirty response to what she said, but I just froze for a second, so I just kept it platonic to end the awkwardness and it just stayed platonic the whole time.
That's usually what happens, either I have nothing flirty coming to mind or I freeze on the rare times I do. It's not something I am good at tbh
Would your female friends be willing to practice with you? It sounds like you have some really good and trusted lady friends, so while I wouldn't suggest this to everyone, it could be something they would be open to, to help you overcome the mental block around it.
I suspect this is probably key to your difficulty - if you freeze whenever a flirtatious moment arises, women may be interpreting you as disinterested and trying to rebuff their advances.
I'll consider this
It sounds like you're waiting for the woman to make a definite first move. Even when one did, according to your comment, you froze up and didn't pursue the opening. It's not that mysterious--you need to take initiative.
I see what you are saying, thanks.
You say you “do everything right,” but aside from showering and buying nice clothes, you don’t talk about actions. You’re “not objectively ugly,” not short, not bald…but those aren’t things you do.
Mostly you talk about passive things: you have not been flirted with, have not been talked about, have not been shown interest.
But what do YOU do? How often do you flirt, talk to mutual friends about your interest in someone, show interest in that person? How often do you engage with new people?
I usually blank out when I try to flirt(have nothing to say), or I hesitate in the rare moment I hesitate when I have something flirty to say.
I feel it's just not in me.
I heard someone say once, "I'm so oblivious, I didn't realize she was interested in me until she started taking my clothes off."
I mention that because I'm notoriously oblivious - I've been on several dates that I didn't recognize were dates until halfway through the evening.
First, you probably are getting signals here and there, and just don't realize it.
But right now, you've got this pressure built up about your virginity, and that's probably holding you back.
Let me ask this: all those women around you? Do you ever do things one on one? Or is it always group activities?
Try inviting some of them for just the two of you - your friend Debbie really loves Russian poetry, so invite her to the lecture you just heard about that sounded interesting. Sally likes to hike, so invite her to join you for the wildflower walk fundraiser you're going to. Didn't Susie tell you she wanted to see that art house movie? See if the dynamic changes.
Or find something that matters to you and get involved - political campaigns, neighborhood clean up days, reading to children or the elderly, art classes: whatever it is that gets your passion flowing. See where that leads - I promise that being truly excited about something makes you seem a lot more exciting.
Therapy, because maybe there's something you're not aware of that you're doing that puts people off.
And, in all of this, don't worry about sex. Don't think about it. It's much more likely to happen for you if you don't seek it out.
I have never been flirted with by a woman, I have never been crushed on by a woman, I have never heard a rumor of a woman liking me, I feel undesired. 25 years of this is a statistical anomaly which doesn't make sense to me.
I'll correct you on one bit: this isn't really that much of a statistical anomaly. Most guys will never have a woman just walk up to them and start overtly flirting with them.
You say you can easily talk to women, but are you actually adding some kind of romantic/sexual tension? Being able to talk to women and be confident is great, but you have to be able to add a little romantic/sexual tension, otherwise it is likely never going to turn into anything but friendly banter.
I have asked female friends about this and still haven't gotten good advice as they are as confused as I am.
This may be a controversial opinion, and may be playing with fire, but you could ask them if they'd be willing to set you up with friends. If they refuse and won't tell you why, then I hate to say it, but they're likely not being honest with you.
They can't find any flaws about me and they say stuff like, "just keep waiting" "itll come when you least expect it".
No disrespect to your friends, but this is bad advice. For the vast, vast majority of men, waiting around will lead to absolutely nothing. You have to be proactive.
Do you use any dating apps? One of the things I like about dating apps is that both parties already know they're there for dating purposes, so it sort of gets you past at least part of the initial flirting phase.
I did use apps. At the start I got a few matches a week, but then haven't gotten much since. I got advice on my profile so I'll have to retake photos. I haven't gotten around to it yet
Eh, I wouldn’t necessarily agree with the asking friends to matchmake as women especially in gen z don’t really tend to do that anymore for various reasons, but good advice otherwise op
I'm an old fart, curious why Gen Z doesn't really do that anymore?
Anyway, the reason I was sort of hesitant on that one is that there is some subterfuge involved, and it is a little bit more of a test than anything. If his female friends are telling him how great of a guy he is and how he's such a catch and all that, but then they're not willing to intro him to anyone, it tells me that there is some sort of red flag here that they're not being honest with him about.
This is bad, because if they're constantly reinforcing to him that he's not doing anything wrong when he is, he'll continue to do the same stuff and never make progress.
a variety of reasons, but primarily COVID changed so much in the way that gen Z socializes, shifting it to online but also in such a way that people tend to not mix friend groups as much/introduce friends to other due to the fear of friend group drama and wanting to preserve both ends of the relationship in case of a breakup.
That isn't to say it doesn't happen at all though! and I 100% agree with your assesment there
Few things here.
First of all, I was exactly the same at 25. Now 32 and married with a kid on the way. You’re a long way from being too late.
Second, how do you know you’ve never been crushed on? You’re a statistics person. Do you consider the probability of a person having a crush on you and you finding out to be high?
Lastly, it doesn’t seem to be an issue for you to meet people. Maybe establish what you’re doing to give off platonic signals to people. Maybe they’re just not picking up on what you’re putting down. But if you’re getting the same results with multiple prospective partners, maybe adjust your moves.
like all the other comments are saying here. i feel like you are not putting enough signals forth. light touches on the elbow/knee when laughing at something together. flirty jokes. are your conversations fun and interesting, or are they pragmatic and to-the-point? do you talk to them about work and their troubles or do you talk to them about fun things they like to do and what they're passionate about? physical touch in general? do you look into their eyes or do you make eye contact? sounds cheesy, but make it obvious you're into them without making it OBVIOUS. women are extremely good at picking up indicators like this, and they will immediately shut it down or give you signs they don't like it if they arent interested in giving it a chance.
theres so many avenues here to spark a fire that are bound to work eventually if you talk to enough girls. it seems like you talk to a lot of girls so if not a single one has ever expressed a modicum of interest in you, if everything you say is true, then that leads me to believe YOU arent giving any signals. and if you are, they probably arent good ones.
being friends with and talking to women is like 80% of the hard part finished already. you just have to work on that extra 20% where you create a little magic and sexual tension between you and them. dont force it obviously, but just have fun with them in the moment.
Not OP but I'm in the same boat.
I don't do any of the above because I'm really scared of making women uncomfortable (touches on the elbow and knee, etc). I think girls should be allowed to live their lives without guys creeping on them, but I'm tired of being alone.
I'd stay away from the knee, but the elbow is OK - like if you're in a crowded place you can touch her elbow and sort of guide her if someone is trying to squeeze through, or the back or back of her arm if you are 'ushering' her through the door. If you're in a festive or party environment like a wedding or something, offer your arm, like you're escorting her at a formal event. Lots of ways to initiate physical touch. However it's kind of a like a litmus test. If she's not into you she won't like that, however, it might be OK if she's already touched you in a flirtatious way on the arm or shoulder.
You touching her in a friendly, brief and non-sexual way isn't you creeping on her, believe me. But - it's something that you need to make sure there's a comfort level established before you do it. But even if you make a mistake, just think of it as a piece of social calibration that you didn't gauge correctly, and move on from there. Don't overthink or beat yourself up for it.
Women expect you to take initiative, for the most part, but don't worry about the creepy thing too much.
As someone who is also a kissless virgin but has accepted that I will not find a partner, I would say those waves of loneliness happen to me as well. Working on and succeeding in finding self love has helped taking some of the sting out of them. I would also say that (for me at least) each new wave feels like it's worse then the last but I know they are not and that is just part of them.
Any tips on the self-love aspect?
For me the thing that helped was to view myself as if I was meeting myself for the first time and to think about how I would view me as a stranger. I wouldn't hate someone for just being ugly so why do I hate myself for the same reason. Instead, I should value the attributes others would see in me and appreciate them.
I have never been flirted by or hit on first by women either, I always made the move and you never know what someone might be thinking about you until you make a move. So I think you need to realize you need to take more initiative.
Easier said than done but just wanted to give you a perspective that not being hit on by women is a very common occurance with guys.
Let's try to reframe this. I noted from your post that you mention your lack of success is not due to looks, social calibration, hygiene or style. It's great that you have these locked down. But in our times I really think that might be par for the course, you know? They are kind of minimum viable requirements, to use Software Business Analyst terms LOL. However just like Agile, things are iterative, you can try once, then try again with some added feature. You're informally 'selling' your active and interesting life, but the thing about your active and interesting life is that it doesn't REQUIRE anyone to 'buy' it. It's more like your active and interesting life is a roller coaster that you built and are riding on, and you're inviting someone to ride along with you for a while, but it's so much fun that it's totally worth you riding it by yourself.
The other part of your situation sounds like lack of initiation of flirtation. Remember, the idea of flirtation is to have fun. Start to do that early - interactions don't just have to be about information exchange, they're about feelings, vibes, FUN. Joke, tease, talk to women like you are amusing yourself by doing so (without being mean-spirited, of course). Ladies like to twerk on guys on the dance floor (for some reason) so if she's putting her booty into your crotch you can pretend you're smacking it. OK, maybe not that, LOL. When you're having a conversation and she says something that could loosely be interpreted as some kind of innuendo, go "Heyooo!" and cock your eyebrow. Of course it depends on your comfort level and your ability to read hers, but these are just suggestions or examples. Good luck!
Question, how do you meet so many girls at 25 assuming you are done with university?
I'm still in college, but I usually meet them through other female friends, or parties I get invited to. Or sometimes I meet women traveling