Yes, actual lesbians. A lot of anime, comics, video games, and other geek media are infamous for queerbaiting, that is, showing two same-sex characters getting very close and intimate with each other, but denying that they're romantically attracted to each other or leaving the relationship just vague enough that fans have plausible deniability to say they're not gay and people are reading too much into things. However, in this case, the romantic relationship is real. Two girls in the Japanese anime-inspired role-playing video game Blue Reflection: Second Light say "I love you" to each other and get into a serious, explicitly stated romantic relationship, which got a lot of fans excited because this sort of explicit confirmation rarely happens.
However, their hopes were dashed because immediately after this game, the series releases the mobile game Blue Reflection Sun, starring a bland, self-insert Gary Stu male harem lead who all the girls fall for and who proceeded to completely take over a series that previously was all about magical girls fighting cosmic evil forces, their relationships with each other, and how they found hope together. This made a lot of people, such as r/yurimemes, very angry and was widely regarded as a bad idea.
And yet, was this really such a huge about-face? The series from day 1 was always, well, explicit about its intentions and target audience (I advise against clicking the Steam screenshots for both BR games. Or the sexist Steam forums for the games). Unfortunately, this is part of a trend of many Japanese series starring schoolgirls being full of male gaze scenes to pander to perverts despite picking up a lot of female and queer fans.
Is it queerbait in spirit when a series has an actual lesbian couple, but its producers display little interest in the queer audience? That is the guiding question behind the tragic tale of this dead cult RPG multimedia series. Note: unmarked spoilers ahead.
Blue Reflection (2017)
Once, there was this kid, who, got into an accident and couldn't come to school but when, she finally came back, her hair, had turned from black into brown blonde. She said that it was from the Reflector Ring on her hand.
Blue Reflection started as a spin-off from the Atelier series, which has a cult following among cozy RPG fans. It got some attention for being one of the few original magical girl video game series in existence, but didn't make waves otherwise. Despite being a full priced PS4 game, the gameplay scope was so small that it feels like one of those experimental DS games. The story has an intriguing premise: a ballet prodigy, Hinako, discovering a new life after a career ending injury, but it's basically a character of the day plot where she and her new self-appointed friends (it's complicated) meet a classmate with a stock interest, find their inner feelings in another dimension, The Commons, representing human emotions, and resolve their problem in the real world. Though most of these classmates are stereotypes whose personality begins and ends with their interest, notable characters include Yuri, an autistic, er, "savant syndrome" girl who learns to open up to people, Mao, who is basically an asshole shonen rival like Seto Kaiba, and Sarasa, who's really into Hinako and wants nothing more than to be ballet partners with her, but isn't one of her magical self-appointed friends so she never stood a chance (at least Hinako acknowledges her in the second game). Also something something Kabbalah angels straight out of Neon Genesis Evangelion.
The writing is pretty simple, but has a nice focus on empathy and could have been suitable for the younger audience if it weren't for its copious amounts of fanservice. It's still T rated, but there are a lot of shower and underwear scenes, the camera is constantly gawking at Hinako's chest and body, and there's this notorious scene where another girl, Shihori, steals her underwear and gropes her while emotion drunk or something. Still, the game has a lot of close friendship scenes that aren't...that, so it gained a niche yuri fanbase. Wouldn't recommend buying this at full price, though.
Blue Reflection Ray (2021)
I am Shino. Time shall compress, all emotions denied.
Blue Reflection given the Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords treatment. An anime that questions the very premise of the original game, goes off in its own direction, and the first indication that every entry was a different team doing their own thing with minimal regards for continuity despite the series' insistence that everything is connected.
Despite the original game being niche, series producer Mel Kishida really wanted this to be his mark in history. So they announced three follow-up entries, the anime Ray, the direct sequel Tie, and the notorious time bomb of a mobile game that was Sun.
If you haven't heard of Blue Reflection Ray, even as a magical girl fan, well, it was so unpopular that it couldn't even get a complete Blu-Ray (heh) set. Why? Well, the washed out colour palette and limited animation turned off a lot of people. Even then, it's very slow going and convoluted in a way that definitely shows its Japanese RPG roots.
Anyways, this anime takes the whole "go into someone's mind to solve their problems" premise and asks, "what if said someone had more serious, traumatic issues to deal with?" As in, broken homes, abusive parents, and stuff like that. Are ordinary teenagers with attitude really equipped to play magical therapist, especially under a bureaucratic, unresponsive, seemingly uncaring mysterious organization? Despite all this, the core framing plot is pretty simple. Sith Lords, er Red Reflectors go around stealing girls' emotions so they can gain enough energy to open the door to Kingdom Hearts, er, The Commons. And then proceed to deny all emotions so no one can get hurt anymore. It takes a certain mindset to enjoy something like this, and if you want to check whether that describes you, I recommend reading this review comparing it to Kingdom Hearts in more detail.
As for the yuri content, there's a fair bit of it. The most notable is that the second half introduces Ryoka and Amiru, a pair who is so close that the former would do anything for the sake of the latter, even join the Sith Lords. Another notable character is Uta, who's a dark comic relief character here, but gets a more prominent role in the next game. Because it's an RPG, amnesia is involved.
On the plus side, no fanservice, aside from maybe a very brief bath scene.
And now, for our feature presentation.
Blue Reflection: Second Light (2021)
Go. Now. If you want it. Another world awaits you. Don't. You. Give up on it. You bite the hand that feeds you!
Our two main characters are Rena and Yuki.
Rena is a tall, stern, standoffish girl who resembles a female version of Squall from Final Fantasy VIII. Like him, she becomes increasingly panicky and depressed after spending too long in a Japanese RPG and having to deal with the crazy plot. To a lot of us, that's the most relatable thing ever.
Yuki is a short girl with no magical powers, like Meiling from Cardcaptor Sakura, but always wants to help with a perky optimistic attitude, yet harbours a dark secret. Like Vanille from Final Fantasy XIII.
While games like FF13 strongly suggest a loving relationship like Fang/Vanille, but don't actually admit it, Rena has the courage to outright say it. "I love you."* The sentimental music that plays afterwards is the sound of the yuri fandom's hearts going aflutter. It's the most talked-about thing about this game. A major Atelier fansite had the author going into great gushing detail about it. So was this a sea change moment for seeing lesbians on screen? The herald of a veritable Garden of Eden for queer media?
...
We're on Hobby Drama, what do you think?
As for the game itself, it's a vast structural improvement on the original game. There are actual, distinct worlds now representing the hearts of each girl, and of course Rena's Super Mario Galaxy inspired garden is the most beautiful. The battle system is faster-paced, resembling Final Fantasy XIII except with a pause for each girl's turn and with full control of each character. You even get a magical girl transformation if you get to a high enough level in the battle. So while still niche, this game attracted a larger fanbase than anything else in the series. Chances are, if anyone is talking about Blue Reflection, it's about this game specifically.
Which is ironic because its Japanese subtitle, Tie, implies it's actually supposed to be a bridge to the other three entries. Yet seeing the entire series doesn't add much to this game. The story was outsourced to four different writers from a company specializing in video game writing, so the character stories are almost entirely original with only vague connections to the other entries. Also, Mel Kishida had significantly reduced involvement in this one, so it's less pervy than the first game (though still, don't check the Steam screenshots).
I also have to mention Uta, because she became a huge fan favourite here. The other characters remember her as a sadistic villain, but because she doesn't remember anything right now, Ao (the actual main character, btw) decides to give her a chance and eventually she comes out of her shell and gets redeemed by the power of love friendship and understanding. She became popular as positive example of a neurodivergent character, who is shown to be emphatic and introspective in her own way. Her story is also pretty tragic, especially for those who have very complex relationships with their family.
So we've reached the high point of the series, a game fondly remembered by the small group of yuri, magical girl fans, and queers and allies that played it. Unfortunately, "Here comes the Sun."
*Video has the full hour-long Rena/Yuki love story if you're curious. And there is a scene that resembles Final Fantasy X's infamous Tidus laughing scene in it.
Blue Reflection Sun (2023-2024)
For Mel so loved the world that he gave his one and only Sun, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.) - Kishida 3:16
To spare anyone from having to sit through tedious mobile game cutscenes, here is a summary of the Blue Reflection Sun experience in 19 seconds.
Simply put, a tall male figure the characters call "Leader" is now the protagonist. "Leader" is ostensibly a self-insert for you, the player, even though people would insist Ao from the second game fulfills that role perfectly fine. The girls, who used to be able to handle things on their own, are now so incompetent that they're dependent on "Leader" to solve everything for them. As for how the game treated Uta, well, it's pretty bad. A bunch of female and queer gamers who thought they found something that speaks to them in Second Light felt understandably betrayed. The last time this happened was with Lapis ReLights, so with that precedent, people were constantly counting down the days to when Sun would also expire. It barely made money, but apparently it was just enough to stumble along for a year. And it led to massive review bombing of the Steam reviews for the first two games.
But really, this was a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. Mel Kishida wanted a male protagonist for the first game, using the typical excuse that he's meant for audiences to relate to, so this is him finally implementing his True Original Vision no matter how much the series had branched off since then. And Second Light had several subtle references to "Leader." Even if one of the writers snuck in Actual Lesbians somehow. It's tempting to dismiss this as a case of problematic faves. But really, queer folks have been lacking options for a long time (hopefully this continues to improve).
Besides, Sun went supernova and disappeared into a black hole abyss, so even if it took the franchise with it, we can all safely forget this mobile game ever existed and pretend Second Light is a unique, interesting footnote in gaming history. Will it have an impact on the queer gaming scene or magical girl video games in the long run? That's for time to decide.
Reflect on your...childhood. Your words, your memories, your sensations. Time...it will not wait. No matter how hard you hold on, it escapes you. And....
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Thanks for your effort. As someone who has no idea what this is, I still feel like I mostly have no idea what this is. I guess it's something to do with a videogame? I just mean that I could have done with a bit more of a general introduction.
Rewrote the intro to explain the context behind queerbaiting and why the confirmation of a real relationship was such a big deal to the RPG fandom. Let me know if you still need more context.
Thanks! That helps me out a lot. Keep up the good work.
Anime is weird, man. If you're into it, you're really into it. And if you're not, well, it's just a clusterfuck of weird names, insane plot points and jiggly tits.
I have a friend who loves both anime and opera for the insane plot points. A girl borrows her dad’s coat and is murdered by his enemies! A guy builds a dancing robot, falls in love with it, and it self destructs! A swan, roasting on a spit, sings about how horrible it is to be cooked and oh shit now I’m on the table!
wait what's the dancing robot
It’s in Tales of Hoffmann - Hoffman falls in love three times.
I misremembered - it’s been a while! He didn’t build her himself, and she didn’t self-destruct, but it’s still fairly anime-esque. She looked like a sparkly robot.
The other two loves don’t work out either to no one’s surprise.
[deleted]
Nobody nowadays - among lots of other reasons, a lot of them are technically owned by the Queen or King of England. They used to be quite the showpiece for a fancy dinner party.
WHY DON’T WE EAT SWANS?
I’ve heard all my life that swans can kill you or at least break bones, but it’s pretty rare.
Research Shows Swans Would Rather Fight Than Sleep: Why Are They so Aggressive?
(They’re aggressive because they’re protecting their offspring. Usually.)
seems like youre espousing a vaguely reductive and orientalizing sentiment
It's extremely accurate though, that doesn't make it "orientalized". Like, American comics are dumb bimbo and himbo filled shit series. Anime is bizarre and weird and behind the times
"behind the times"
yeah, because it's not like anime and anime-adjacent media has been a significant spurring force for the social progression of sexual and gender identity which has historically been shunned. lmao (la-ma-yo)
Yeah, plenty of people have watched Studio Ghibli. it’s not niche
Of course a weeaboo would get offended. 🤦♀️
できない cope...
I mean OP says it's a video game all of four sentences in...
That was after I rewrote it. I originally made the mistake of only mentioning that later in the OP. And assuming everyone knew what queerbaiting was.
In summary: https://xkcd.com/2501/
A solid writeup post-changes for sure!
Holy shit this shit is so painful to read about. I consider Blue Reflection Second Light to be one of my favorite RPGs of all time, it just hit so right in all aspects of gameplay, aesthetic, music, and story, and was such a marked improvement over the first game. Blue Reflection Ray was a really interesting and creative show that, though it didn't always land with its messaging and sometimes poor animation, still managed to stick with me.
I always knew about Sun being the black sheep with the out of place male self-insert MC that completely went against the heavy yuri-coded themes of everything else, but I never knew it was that bad. Uta was my favorite character, too... Seeing her go from a gleefully sadistic villain in Ray to the quiet, reserved person in Second Light was a complete shock that very much recontextualized her character for the better, as someone who was failed by society and turned to evil, but finally given the second chance she deserved at a proper life. Reading how Sun treated her actually made my skin crawl. Actually just not understanding and actively undermining everything about the characters from the previous games in the series. Like, it has to be malice at that point.
Man, Mel Kishida is just a creepy hack, isn't he? No wonder the Arland Atelier games are so weirdly horny (compared to the other Atelier games that are also still horny but in like a normal way).
Going back to the Arland series was certainly a trip. Still appreciate them, it was my entryway into the Atelier franchise, and I do think they're still neat games. But also, yeah, weirdly horny.
Lapis relight suffered the same fate, or similar. Anime that teased yuri and a game with a self insert male teacher, I think...? Well, they also got hit by covid. Man, I sort of enjoyed blue reflection ray, a lot of yapping but it also had a lot of soul. Watching it with /a/ really improved the experience
The phrase 'self insert male teacher' gives me shivers.
Shivers of the "Blue of Archives" kind, I'd assume.
At least BA keeps the MC's gender ambiguous.
As one of its players I'll just say that the game (and its playerbase) both deserves its bad rep and not at the same time.
Lapis Relight feels like a miscommunication between the game and anime team. Because as a multimedia project they were announced at the same time though the game was delayed IIRC.
It just that both went the opposite way with the anime going full female main cast only while the game went with the more Idolmaster with male PoV character except it also has harem.
Really had to remind me of this horseshit lmao. God, fuck the gacha game. We could have had something great.
Doesn't help that magical girl games are so rare despite how well they should fit into fantasy video game mechanics.
omg i know right??? i NEED a good magical game
It's shocking. At this point the most recent one I can think of is This Way Madness Lies.
...Caligula Effect I guess if you squint?
Yeah. I really liked Blue Reflection. Then Sun happened.
I always assume that the yuri ppl talk about in a story like this is exaggerated and strictly fanservice until proven otherwise lol
I'm happy when I'm wrong! I'm happy to BE wrong! But for the sake of my sanity, unless it's something being marketed as yuri/lesbians, I will assume it's fanservice.
Maybe one day this won't be the case...
Yuri as fanservice is weird because when you get down to it, a ton of dudes actually hate it. I guess they've stopped being able to believe the "getting in on some lesbians" thing? You see it all the time in mobile game fanbases.
Straight dudes not liking yuri hasn't been my experience, though I expect this is highly contextual and depends on how the yuri is presented and framed. Like I wouldn't be surprised if the playerbase for a very waifu centric, self insert, game feel differently compared to the playerbase for a game where the player isn't meant to self insert.
Out of curiosity, what have you observed being the reason that dudes hate it? Is it the idea that their waifu isn't available to them or do they just not find the idea of two women kissing to be appealing?
The latter, I guess? It is definitely more the case for games like the infamous Snowbreak, but it also does happen for games like GFL2 where the player character is a distinct character that talks and does things without the player's input. Part of the logic for "men aren't into yuri" is that extremely female-dense but male-oriented media like Nikke shys away from any serious depiction of it (while noting Nikke has a fairly respectable 35% or so female player base, and the game's writers are fairly committed to writing the cast as having a life outside of being part of a harem). I think it boils down to a weird dynamic of possessiveness and immersion? Where (typically) guys get very possessive of their waifu of choice while also not being immersed enough to actually consider characters to be people (which sure, they're not, but part of the point of a story that wants to be taken seriously is to imagine a world where the characters are real). Stuff like the way the Chinese playerbase reacted to one of the women in GFL2 having a friendly relationship with a man comes from a similar place.
There's also a separate but related phenomenon where those mobile games that gender the player as male get REALLY testy at fanart that depicts them as female (see Nikke, CZN), and are usually hostile to gender-neutral PCs being depicted as female (see Arknights, GFL1, Blue Archive, Azur Lane).
This doesn't seem to happen as much with games that have distinct female vs male PC options though (see Genshin, FGO, Granblue), possibly because the fanbase can see the female PC as another waifu to thirst for?
You also see tons of straight fanart for explicitly lesbian characters (which are rare and all I can think of offhand is Honkai 3rd Impact. I guess Touhou Lost Word has implicit lesbians? R1999/Witch Weapon/PTN never quite got popular enough for much fanart).
I've never done any serious studies or anything so its all anecdotal, I just find it all interesting. I can't say I entirely don't get it because I roll my eyes at the overabundance of straight male fanart, but I also acknowledge that even the most female-oriented non-otome mobage rarely break 40% female player base.
Thank you for the detailed reply! This more or less tracks with what I was thinking wrt ppl being possessive of a character, but I get why I haven't seen any animosity towards yuri from straight dudes bc I don't play ANY of the games you mentioned, I'm definitely over in the Genshin/FGO/HSR/PTN etc realm of games. People being mad about gender swapped protags for games where there's only a dude protag is WILD. Like what do you care what randos are doing?? It's not canon!
Anyway, I've generally observed (also anecdotally) that in the case of games where there's 2 protag options, that straight guys either like the cute girl design better than the dude, or they play as dudes but to me seem down with girls getting handsy with each other, even if they're not shipping the characters or whatever.
As for the het fanart of lesbian characters: this is always an interesting one to me, because a lot of the time when people say a character is canonically a lesbian or w/e, they mean she has a girlfriend... But that doesn't mean she's definitely a lesbian?? Which isn't to say that I think the statement is totally baseless (like I am a fan of Path to Nowhere and Bronya/Seele from HI3, there's definitely many queer women in both those games), but I feel like in both those cases, the game deliberately doesn't say that a character is any particular orientation, so as to leave the option there for men. People will point out that the CCP says you can't "promote homosexuality" but imo, even if that wasn't a thing, I think the devs would still leave things ambiguous 99% of the time.
The least ambiguous lesbian I've seen to date is the protagonist of Heaven Burns Red, wherein it's textually explicit that she likes women in a character story, but I can't recall anything quite that blunt in HI3 or PTN (though that doesn't mean I didn't miss it).
Anyway, this got rambly but ultimately I agree that it's all very interesting! I wish we had some bonkers demographics and romance opinions study on gacha players! Maybe one day someone will be crazy enough to pull such a thing together...
I misread "male harem lead" as "male harem, lead" and thought a group of gay guys took over a femme/femme series...
recontextualizes the original writeup a lot, thanks for posting!
Crash Test Dummies lyrical references? In MY HobbyDrama post?
Anyway, this was wild.
Seeing that reference simultaneously brought me joy and made me feel old as heck.
If I recall, Brad Roberts didn't explain the song's meaning until decades later, leaving everyone to speculate for a long time. Still, "by the way, these surreal events are based on things that actually happened" was quite a treat to hear.
I've never seen that, time for a Google rabbit hole!
This video has him explaining the song.
Thank you!
Reading this was painful. The grief of this franchise most likely being dead is still too near. That being said, it did warm my heart to see Blue Reflection mentioned at all.
I have 2 questions that I feel like this post didn't really answer.
Did Yuki return Rena's feelings (was there actually a queen couple) Did the new game then break up Rena and Yuki, and were the characters who had been established as gay then shown going after the new guy, or was it just other cast members?
I thought the problem with Sun was it broke up a yuri couple for a straight character insert ship. Did it break up any yuri couples?
Sort of. The female lead of Sun, Shiho, and the returning protagonist of the first game, Hinako, had quite a few very tender scenes together in Second Light.* In addition, Second Light's protagonist, Ao, is very flirty, so other people paired Shiho up with her. There are a few other characters that people paired Shiho with, but those are the two most notable.
Then it turns out that, in Sun, she was obsessed with some dude called "Leader," but in Second Light, the hints of this were pretty out-of-the-way and easy to overlook. So people were mad that Shiho's yuri pairings got usurped by some random guy (although there's still fanfic room to say she gets over him).
*Which makes Hinako's interactions with Sarasa in the first game even funnier, because the latter is really into her, but Hinako has closer interactions with several other characters other than her. Makes one wonder if a hypothetical third game would randomly reveal yet another yuri crush from her past or future to further rub in the wound.
I see. I'm a pretty big fan of Yuri manga, and I feel like I have to point out the obvious that the Fandom never likes to hear. The characters can just be bi. Unless they specifically said they were straight, that would be how I read a character having differnet gender preferences several years apart.
I am trying to understand the outrage here but it all seems easily explained to me.
It's less the specific pairings and more that there's a long trend of male leads suddenly introduced into an all-female group becoming the story usurper. And in this case, indeed, everyone else became less competent and independent to justify his existence.
Precure introduced a male Cure around the same time (Hirogaru Sky), but he was part of the group rather than taking over it, so people were generally okay with it.
But you also said it was in the past. Wouldn't it make sense they are less skilled in the past?
I'll be honest, you lost me here. I thought this drama was about something else, and now I'm not really getting it.
In the in-series chronology, it's in the past, but the release order of the games was what pissed people off. There's a possibility that, had Sun came first, flopped, and then Second Light was the last game in the series that bestowed yuri goodness onto the fandom, then everyone wouldn't have minded the guy as much, or dismissed him as a minor aberration like many other video game series' weird, experimental second games.
Blue reflection i the magical girl game right? I played both games (they're both cute af) but they always had this male gaze-y vibe.
I'm not shocked that they added male protagonists for the gacha game. God forbid a man had to rp had girl from series that onle has female main characters
This isn't directly related but I do want to point out that Blue Reflection Second Light has some truly revolutionary hand-holding based technology, where a character holding hands will notice if they'd walk into something, let go, then catch up on the other side to resume holding hands.
What a shame what happened.
Dang, I played Second Light and absolutely loved it. Glad I missed Sun, what a shitshow it turned into.
A series titled "Tie" that failed to tie anything...
The world can be so humorous sometimes
...are adult men not allowed to enjoy magical girl media too? This feels like a weird comment to make.
Anyway, I have no idea what kind of stuff they were on introducing a male character in Sun when the series up to that point had been all about women and their relationships with each other. Dropping a dude in there is like poisoning the well and even cis male fans (from the English and Japanese comments I'd read) agreed that if there had to be a self-insert character, at least make them female like how Touhou Lostword and some other women-dominant cast games did it.
(Also personal tidbit, but the aesthetics of Sun were eerily reminiscent to fellow mobile game Blue Archive with its gradient color palette instead of the shiny glass-like cold blue the original games had, which irked me a bit. It's like they weren't confident with their own already-unique art style)
Also, was the color palette for the anime really that bad? I thought the washed out look was reminiscent of the shininess of the games, and looked pretty nice imo.
As an outsider, looking at those anime screenshots I actually dig the color scheme. Maybe it doesn't look good in motion bug just as screenshots I think it looks pretty.
They are allowed to like it, lol, op never said otherwise. It's just frustrating that all adult-aimed magical girl media is aimed at men, and female fans feel unwelcome in a space that's supposed to reflect themselves.
I suppose I understand that feeling after thinking about it a little.
If you want to understand it further, try noticing the differences between the standard shounen anime (your pick) and something like Free!, Yuri on Ice, or Ensemble Stars, all anime more closely aimed at straight women. They don't reflect male experiences particularly well, and are much closer to the expectations society puts on women, despite the male-majority casts.
I've seen two of them, but I don't necessarily feel the sense of 'being left out' despite it being targeted towards straight women.
Although I'm of the opinion that gender barriers for media are pointless and that all media is open for enjoyment by any gender, so maybe that's why I don't fully understand that sense of 'seperation' that others may feel, because I never thought it should be there in the first place.
I think it's not as much "being left out" as an anime featuring things that appeal to certain publics. Plus, men not usually being socialised to like and/ors seek certain genres of entertainment and types of media. Difference between fanbases is notable and quantifiable, if difficult to gather. Here's one little poll someone ran on MAL users.
We can see that Free! is one of the shows with the largest female fanbases, with 22% of the users identifying as male in their profiles. And that's with it being a sports anime. A female-led romance drama, like Fruits Basket, has 18% of male fans. And a trashy reverse harem like Diabolik Lovers has 10%.
But coming back to the difference in men depicted in male-aimed and female-aimed shows, I believe there's a marked difference in intimacy and tenderness, and the beauty standards presented in each media.
How often do you see the camera stop and admire a man like Satoru Gojo in shounen anime? It's pretty common in anime aimed at women.
How often do you get romantic undertones in male friendships like in Free? Or even a romance where the primary POV character is pursuing a man? I remember Aka Akasaka (Kaguya-sama's author) commenting how he meant for the series to appeal to weary office ladies, but both of the romantic plots are primarily written from the boys' perspective. It's verifiable that few men are interested in BL and female-led romance.
And what appeals in a character to straight women and gay men tends not to be so present when a character is written for a male-aimed series. That r_anime thread, for example, notes how Spice & Wolf tends to be rated higher by men and someone points that the MC isn't much to write home about in comparison to male leads in shoujo and josei series. When was the last time you've seen a bland self-insert female main character?
I remember, in ages past, when Saint Seiya was big in Latin America. Ikki, Seiya and Shiryu tended to be the most popular with the boys, but androgynous characters like Shun and Pisces Aphrodite, target of many homophobic slurs, were wildly popular with women, with Shun being instrumental in popularising the term "yaoi" in the 80s (and starting the artist group CLAMP).
TL;DR There isn't a physical barrier, but there's a social hurdle. Not as much homoromanticism (edit:between men, female homoromanticism is a staple of CGDCT anime) in male-aimed series, or a focus on sensitive, androgynous and pretty men like in female-aimed series.
Not sure that's really the case in Kaguya-sama? Though I never counted chapters, but entire structure of the series is to switch POV between the leads frequently. It's definitely true for Oshi no Ko though, where Aqua gets the POV for the vast majority of the series.
That's ... Rarer than it should be but not entirely unknown? Awkward Senpai this very season, Yano-kun as well. (though I'm not exactly sure what demographic that one is aimed at)
I do find the entire weird subdivisons of stuff vaguely interesting and what crosses over. Like CGDUCT tends to be aggressively mono-gendered. Like to the point where even having a random male classmate or teacher or parent is actually notable. I feel that tends to be less the case in the prettyboy stuff (even if they can often be wildly misogynistic in their portrayal of female characters, there's less of a "This takes place in a universe where men don't exist" vibe) part of it might also be that a lot of the BL stuff that gets adapated tends to be "BL with other media" (IE crime drama like Banana Fish) and since it's harder to just have it be the main characters and no one else?
Famously sports manga tends to have high crossover IIRC, it usually gives a "good reason" for a mono-gender cast, and the entire "sports drama" (which is really just the shounen battle formula... or the shounen battle formula is sports drama turned into actual fighting depending how you look at it) tends to drag in opposite demographics.
And of course you have the entire thing where because of metatextuality and such the entire thing becomes part of the joke. Like Rock is a Lady's Modesty is on the one hand gay as fuck but on the other hand absolutely playing with the entire "The gayness is a metaphor and not actually textual" thing to the point where I think actually conforming anything would kinda ruin the joke.
I'm not talking about chapter count, but the narrative. It's Ishigami and Shirogane who drive the narrative. Shirogane is the one striving to match Kaguya, and the series even has one of the last arcs revolving around him rescuing her from her family. Ishigami and Iino's relationship is also mostly developed by him, especially since he has a whole arc revolving around his crush on Tsubame.
Don't get me wrong. I don't mean to criticise Aka too hard. He writes female characters well, even if he tends to drop the ball on the home stretch, when it's clear he's tired of writing a story.
I can't say much for Yano-kun, since I haven't read it (and it's published on a web platform, so it's easy to blur boundaries and appeal to different publics), but the Awkward Senpai manga is very clear at who you're supposed to gawk at, with her big purple eyes and carefully drawn facial expressions. The webcomic is even more obvious. You can barely notice that the author also colors his eyes, so little space he occupies on the pages. As for his personality, much like Kraft Lawrence, is kind of a nothingburger and the title of the series is from his perspective.
The series appeal, since the twitter days, has always been how cute she looks.
I feel like a lot of it comes down to women's purity is much more valued as a commodity. It's not uncommon for male otaku to throw a fit at the idea of their objects of desire and affection interacting with other men.
Love Live has removed male bathroom signs and the 2018 collab with Granblue Fantasy drew some ire due to the presence of male characters. I recall Hololive having at least one big stink when one streamer had a male voice come up in the background (there's something to be said about the origins of Vtubing and it's relation to CGDCT anime).
There's also a lot to be said about the infantilisation of women and wlw relationships, to the point that it's not an uncommon for lesbian romance to be regarded as "practice for real relationships" or "just a phase". There's an entire genre about this. If you ever watched Bloom into You, one of the side characters has a storyline that revolves around this.
Oh, absolutely. But that's a different thing I feel? She's still the protagonist. (Though still subject to the usual male gaze stuff) at least in the anime. (I guess in it comes down to the definition of POV character)
I'm not trying to say it's neccessarily good btw. (I found it pretty insufferable) but I was just pointing out that while not exactly common it's also not entirely rare, and these two were just the ones that aired this season. (though that said, the one before that I can remember was My tiny Senpai, which uh.... had its own problems, to put it mildly)
TBH, there's been some very similar stuff on women's side. (including at real-life idols) but yes, it's not definitely part of it.
Though I do think there's an interesting difference that the male-aimed stuff tends to cut out male characters altogether while female oriented stuff is more likely to just make female characters bad/villainous. Which might say something but I'm not sure what.
EDIT: RE: Kaguya, my point is more that (for the actual core of the series at least) they very much tend to do a thing where they alternate chapter POVs. The entire point of their entire love is war metaphor and weird mind games thing that forms the centre of the comedy for most of the series is that they are both playing the game, and we generally get to see them alternate in trying out a "plan" (and inevitably having it misfire) etc. They alternate taking the POV fairly consistently.
Yeah, but I think you can see how that's skirting the intent of my original question.
In Kaguya, for example, their relationship is the point. In Awkward Senpai, it's watching her be attractive. That she has zero chemistry with the cardboard cutout of a male lead is irrelevant, despite the fact that romance anime relies on relationships between characters.
From what I remember from checking out the manga years ago, he's the nominal protagonist but the story gives him less and less space on the page since he's little more than a reader stand-in, there to allow the story to revolve around how pretty she is. Even Rent-a-girlfriend is better than that when it comes to portraying it's protagonist as desirable by the female lead.
That she's subject of the camera's gaze, and not the one who gazes, is testament to her role in the story.
Not always. Sometimes they make them into side characters. Sometimes into audience surrogates. The fact that they even exist, compared to the dearth of male characters in cute girl shows is interesting (although there was a small trend, in the 2000s of having lolicon male side characters as stand-ins for the audience like Konata's father and Kimura).
Hell, Black Butler's protagonist has an outright fiancée and a female servant and both get to be part of the action. I don't think I can recall a male-aimed yuri-bait show getting a male character, with actual personality, to fawn over one of the cute girls like Lizzie does with Ciel (even if she's disliked by much of the fanbase for her personality). Japan wouldn't survive the rage of a CGDCT character having a boyfriend.
In short, I just don't think women tend to be as hostile to other women (male competition over partners is much more encouraged in our society), and a female stand-in character having zero personality (like Bela Swan, the female producers of male idol gacha games, or Diabolik Lovers' doormat of a protagonist) stands out a bit.
Yeah, especially in the gag chapters, but when it comes to dramatic arcs and grand romantic gestures, the agency is on the boys court. In the fireworks arc (ch. 44-45), we accompany her POV as she's taken by him to see the fireworks. In the dual confessions, we get plenty of her POV too, but it revolves around him making a dramatic gesture to confess to her. From then on, a lot of their relationship's development revolves around Kaguya's mafia of a family (the class trip and the Shinomiya family arc) which is not only the weakest part of the manga, but also largely puts him as the protagonist rescuing her. Kaguya never gets a chance to act like that.
Now that I think of it, Aka gives the series a lot of equality by switching to her POV right before Miyuki's romantic gestures (in chapters 134-135 and 258-260, for example). It's a neat trick but it still maintains a lot of traditional romantic dynamics. I guess the TL;DR is that their relationship has two large hurdles throughout the story: Him, the working class guy feeling worthwhile to confess to her (which ends with the balloon display at the festival), and rescuing Kaguya from the Shinomiya family (which ends with him rescuing her by helicopter). Both are overcome by him. It might be nitpicking, but I feel like she could have been a more active part of the story.
The Ishigami romantic plot also is even more lopsided towards him, largely because the dude gets two of them.
Edit: By the way, your reply didn't show on my inbox so I'm pinging you here: u/Arilou_skiff
Keyword is "otaku," referring to an entire subculture of adult men who watch anime to perv on animated teenage girls and the producers who stuff their media full of male gaze to pander to these fans (obviously, not all men are like that). A lot of English speakers use it casually, but in Japan, it has a derisive connotation of shut-in who doesn't touch grass and only watches anime all day.
UPDATE: Since a lot of people were complaining about the use of otaku in a derogatory sense, I rewrote that section to clarify things.
This is something that also extends to the whole "Cute Girls Doing Cute Stuff" genre, and a lot of contemporary yuri and yuri-adjacent manga.
K-On is pretty notable for having a large female fanbase and it's like 30%, in large part because the anime drastically lowers the sexualization in the manga.
Edit: You can see it in how often these stories have male characters. Not in the self-insert kind, but like, normal part of the secondary cast. Like, Bloom into You has Maki. The story even focuses on his asexuality for a bit. That would probably not fly with these kind of men.
Maybe in the 2000s and for older people. Modern usage isn't like that.
The term you're thinking of to describe the behavior you're describing has morphed into either 'kimo-ota' or perhaps 'chigyu'.
Neet or shut in is what he is referring to not Otaku
That, plus I think Hikikomori is also the word used in Japanese nowadays
Hikikomori isn't the same as otaku
That is shut in yes
I suppose. Maybe I've gotten too used to it or I feel like it doesn't really matter because it's fiction but I just don't care that some people will have that kind of interest in these characters. Maybe a bit of a weird thing to talk about if unsolicited but as long as they keep to themselves I can continue to enjoy these characters completely normally.
That's not what otaku means. An otaku is someone who has a dedicated interest in something. There are all types of otaku: train otaku, figure otaku, idol otaku (usually called wota), and so on. An otaku with an interest in anime is simply an anime otaku.
"Otaku" is a rough equivalent of "geek" in English, with as many types and variations.
I am begging you to read a book written about feminism written in the last decade.
100% agree with you; frustratingly though it seems most people are taking your comment in the exact opposite manner of your intention
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Haven't play the second game but I heard that Shiho already mentioned the male Sun protagonist in that game with the implication that she's into him.
I personally don't mind if they introduce an important male character as part of the cast, even have him as the boyfriend for one of the girl. But I feel like the main appeal of Blue Reflection is coming of age story from the PoV of a teenage girl so turning it into just another battle harem series is definitely a choice.
There's also a speculation that the game needing a male protagonist was mandated by DMM Games, the developer, as all of their games have either male protagonist or protagonist with unspecified gender since they specialized in harem-like games. They also have a couple of bara games but not a single yuri game, and the one time they advertise a game as yuri, the protagonist is actually a feminine boy. I believe Eden's Ritter Grenze is the only game there with a female protagonist option.
That jab on the otaku is unnessary. Its not early 2000 anymore otaku are not that bad of a name.
The entire write-up felt unnecessary hostile to fans who enjoy the media the "wrong" way. A game with an all-female cast aimed at men has fan service in it? Scandalous! Like, it's great that it had queer rep, we need more of that, but I felt like some of the fans, OP included, really wanted this franchise to fill a niche it wasn't trying to fill, and got mad when it followed a different course.
This is not the first time a franchise with a single-gender core cast popular with queer shippers gets its fans up in arms over a self-insert OC breaking up their OTPs. I distinctly remember something like that happening to a franchise where most if not all characters were pretty guys — a visual novel with a self-insert female protagonist was announced, and the protagonist would date canon characters in the game. The female fanbase wanted that nameless woman dead and buried, in terms that would have gotten each and one of them cancelled for internalised misogyny today. I wish people in general were calmer about their favourite gaming franchises doing things that aren't their cup of tea. You are allowed to skip the straight self-insert pondering game and keep shipping your ships.
Oh piss off, people are allowed to be upset when media queerbaits or takes away representation from them.
Doesn't the non-mobile game's representation still stand? I understand why the fans didn't want the mobile game to cheapen the theme, I'm just confused by the judgemental tone of the write-up. There is nothing wrong with enjoying fan service, and fan service and queerness can and do coexist, and enjoying sex or fan service in media does not make one evil.
Nice Knights of the Old Republic II reference. Is Ray as peak?
Now they know how we feel.