The Ministers in charge of state affairs (Wonsang), Shin Suk-ju and Han Myeong-hoe, reported:
“In general, the reason lawsuits are stagnant is entirely due to cunning crowds. Those called Oejibu always stand at the government gates, secretly instigating the litigants or taking over the lawsuits themselves to distort the facts of the case (right and wrong). This causes the officials to become confused about the truth and renders them unable to make decisions. Please order the relevant authorities to interrogate and severely punish them.”
The King followed this advice.
– Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty, Dec. 01, 1427
“These days, discipline has become lax and public sentiment has turned ungenerous. People practice greed without fear or hesitation. Relying on their power, they openly steal others’ lands and people(nobi); such cases are common, and it will be difficult to remedy these abuses in the future.
Prince Jangheung (Yi Sang), a high-ranking member of the royal family, colluded with the Oejibu to forge documents and usurp others’ nobi. When he was sued at the Ministry of Justice and the matter was being adjudicated, he sent many strong servants to barge into the government office and cause various disturbances...”
– Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty (Joseon Wangjo Sillok), Jan. 16, 1547
This content is not a record from the late Joseon Dynasty.
Joseon possesses more UNESCO Memory of the World heritage sites than almost any other country. However, even these records are evaluated as having limitations in verifying the specific lives of common people, as the majority were written from the perspective of the government and officials.
Most countries either tried to leave only records that made them look good or lacked a culture of documentation altogether, making it difficult to produce such works. If a country appears to have no problems, it is one of two things: either there truly are no problems, or they are making it seem as though there are none. And in human history, the method of making things appear problem-free is a branch of knowledge that has been passed down for a very long time.
Because while any country might be able to reduce such things, none can truly eliminate them. Is there anything more foolish than complaining about why we can't get rid of something that exists wherever humans are gathered, across all periods of time?
Yes and no. No, Late Joseon didnt modernise fast enough due to having an even worse isolationist policy than Japan or even China. They chose to follow the model of China over Europe and Japan and this was their mistake. They did eventually choose Russia but it was already too late. (And the Russians themselves got their ass kicked.) That is the main reason they were conquered and it was process that took over 200 years of decline. Yes, it was extremely corrupt and yes that likely had to play a factor in Japan turning it into a puppet state, and not turning to Westernization sooner
That said, every other period before the extremely corrupt late Joseon showed it was very very difficult to conquer
The Japanese failed during the Imjin War, the Mongols took 8 whole invasions to vassalize it not even conquer, the Tang lost, etc
Nobi: The "slave" class of Joseon. They're not exactly slaves but it would be wrong to say they're not slaves either. It's a very unique role that doesn't really have an English equivalent
Can't let the commoners know their rights, that's just crazy talk!
Jamming up the court system and confusing judges with their requests for equity and examination of the truth.
Lawyers were a thing in Joseon?
I thought that oneKdrama made that up
Lawyers existed in England and Europe by the time Joseon became a thing. Makes sense that you need legal specialists in a society with a legal code
Hell, ancient Athens had proto lawyers, that were then banned.
Overnight ‘orators’ showed up who would speak for you in court, but they totally weren’t lawyers.
The Ministers in charge of state affairs (Wonsang), Shin Suk-ju and Han Myeong-hoe, reported:
“In general, the reason lawsuits are stagnant is entirely due to cunning crowds. Those called Oejibu always stand at the government gates, secretly instigating the litigants or taking over the lawsuits themselves to distort the facts of the case (right and wrong). This causes the officials to become confused about the truth and renders them unable to make decisions. Please order the relevant authorities to interrogate and severely punish them.”
The King followed this advice.
– Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty, Dec. 01, 1427
“These days, discipline has become lax and public sentiment has turned ungenerous. People practice greed without fear or hesitation. Relying on their power, they openly steal others’ lands and people(nobi); such cases are common, and it will be difficult to remedy these abuses in the future.
Prince Jangheung (Yi Sang), a high-ranking member of the royal family, colluded with the Oejibu to forge documents and usurp others’ nobi. When he was sued at the Ministry of Justice and the matter was being adjudicated, he sent many strong servants to barge into the government office and cause various disturbances...”
– Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty (Joseon Wangjo Sillok), Jan. 16, 1547
It doesn't matter what era they exist in. Lawyers are still gonna lawyer.
Better call oejibu 😉
Do you know you have rights Confucius said so
yep sounds like what ppl do
The equivalent of Classical Athens' sycophants?
yeah pretty much
All these memes I see here about late Joseon make it seem rotten as fuck
This content is not a record from the late Joseon Dynasty.
Joseon possesses more UNESCO Memory of the World heritage sites than almost any other country. However, even these records are evaluated as having limitations in verifying the specific lives of common people, as the majority were written from the perspective of the government and officials.
Most countries either tried to leave only records that made them look good or lacked a culture of documentation altogether, making it difficult to produce such works. If a country appears to have no problems, it is one of two things: either there truly are no problems, or they are making it seem as though there are none. And in human history, the method of making things appear problem-free is a branch of knowledge that has been passed down for a very long time.
There is a reason they got easily conquered
If that is the level of your thinking, I believe your country is certainly a nation that deserves to be invaded.
I never said that it was right or wrong, just that it was easy. Dysfunctional states tend to fall faster.
You speak as if those things only existed in Joseon. Can you name a country where that wasn't the case?
I do not pretend that these things only apply to Joseon whatsoever and I don't know where you are getting the idea
Because while any country might be able to reduce such things, none can truly eliminate them. Is there anything more foolish than complaining about why we can't get rid of something that exists wherever humans are gathered, across all periods of time?
your pretending to be a dumbass to try and get out of the fact that you started shit under a false assumption rather then say sorry.
Yes and no. No, Late Joseon didnt modernise fast enough due to having an even worse isolationist policy than Japan or even China. They chose to follow the model of China over Europe and Japan and this was their mistake. They did eventually choose Russia but it was already too late. (And the Russians themselves got their ass kicked.) That is the main reason they were conquered and it was process that took over 200 years of decline. Yes, it was extremely corrupt and yes that likely had to play a factor in Japan turning it into a puppet state, and not turning to Westernization sooner
That said, every other period before the extremely corrupt late Joseon showed it was very very difficult to conquer
The Japanese failed during the Imjin War, the Mongols took 8 whole invasions to vassalize it not even conquer, the Tang lost, etc
Well, some things never change…
Ambulance chasers before ambulances existed. 😂
Nobi: The "slave" class of Joseon. They're not exactly slaves but it would be wrong to say they're not slaves either. It's a very unique role that doesn't really have an English equivalent