Imo degwin zabi is the root cause of all uc wars.
Him bastardising deikuns ideals for his authoritarianism caused every problem except the zanscare empire which the feds would have been better prepared for if not for the decades of terrorism and pointless wars they fought.
Don’t even have to go that far. Degwin was very obviously working behind the scenes with Revil to control both sides, but Zeon and the UC got away from them both.
True. While I like some characters from Zeon, the faction as a whole is terrible. Zeon and its many remnant spitters only fanned the animosity between Earthnoids and Spacenoids!
If it wasn't for the first Neo Zeon war, I think is a chance for some improvement and reform within the Fedearaion.
All they had to do was not commit genocide and we'd be talking about zeon like they were the Rebel Alliance, plucky and brave freedom fighters with a few droids and a child of destiny. Wait sorry wrong franchise
The fandom loves to talk about how there are no good guys in Gundam, but hates it when someone applies that concept to UC.
If one side is the source of all evil and all the morally wrong actions of the other side are just reactions or direct results of the actions of the evil side, then one side is clearly the good guy.
Also contributed heavily to just how fucked the enviroment is with all the colony drops and nuclear powered mobile suits they were using in the fights they kept starting.
Which then explode violently with enough power to reduce an unlucky pilot into a burger patty esque mess...
Just look at the infamous case of Bernard Wiseman...
Zeon's ideal was naive as shit and his popularity outside of Side 3 wasn't anywhere near enough to get the rest of the colonies on board. Much like the original EF charter Zeon Zum Deikun pins his hopes on some nebulous "New kind of Human" to fix all these problems and as we see repeatedly Newtypes arn't any bettor or worse at leading than the Oldtypes.
They have the same flaws and vices as any other human.
The most he could have pulled peacefully is Side 3, anything more would have gotten a response from the EF and you still get a massive war.
That's just plain not true, Deikun had clear, specific and well reasoned arguments based on politics and economics. Besides, at no point did he call for a war.
Your dreaming if you think the Federation would just sit and let him pull all those colonies out of it without a fight. Side 3 didn't even have it's own house in order nvm building a new nation.
The point that shot over your head and left the galaxy is that a conflict is inevitable. It doesn't matter who starts it.
Zeon Zum Deikun on the other hand naively held to his vision that it could be dealt with peacefully and that Newtypes would fix things in the long run.
The irony being that belief also helped pushed things towards conflict just as the Federations corruption did.
He was kicking the bucket down the road and putting too much on the future to fix the shit of the present like a bad parent. With him as a parent, its a miracle only Char went Cuckoo
The Federation is deeply flawed to begin with. If the colonies were living just fine there wouldn't even be a great revolutionary thinker to begin with.
It doesnt mean the Federation wasn't deeply flawed, just that either the colonies that sided with them benifited enough they didnt care about Zeon or that the Zabi's blatant warmongering and faccism was more if a turn off than precived mistreatment from the Federation.
There's deep problems with the United States for example. That doesn't even remotely make me want to join North Korea, China, or Russia for opposing them. What Israel is doing do Gaza is inexcusable but you shouldnt join Al Qaeda in protest.
If the resistance movements didn't keep popping up and being worse, I always theorize the Federation would've dropped dead as it couldn't justify itself.
Hence Gaia Gear having Metatron leave without being Zeon Mk 69 is the cause of their defeat I feel
Not the Federation punting the lower classes to space then ignoring their needs, destroying the environment, and straight up killing hundreds of thousands of its own citizens?
The Zabis are awful but the seeds of war were sown by the Federation long before the Principality existed, and well after too. Zeon absolutely did not "cause every problem except for Zanscare", they wouldn't even exist if the Federation didn't already have its fair share of issues.
He wouldn't get much power or following if Federation didn't constantly shit on colonies. He just used people's hate for Federation for his own gain.
Was Zeon in during One Year War worse? Yes, but it all started thanks to Federation. On top Federation soon catched up with war crimes thanks to Titans.
Also Federation was always unprepared because their leaders didn't care much for anything except for their own gain and well being.
Was Zeon in during One Year War worse? Yes, but it all started thanks to Federation, on top Federation soon catched up with war crimes thanks to Titans.
I mean post OYW Zeon movements aren't exactly better in this regards either. Although I do agree that EF being scummy.
Yeah, but Titans Remnants were the same and EF itself didn't have much power to even commit any war crimes later on, as they were barely able to just defend themselves thanks to years of incompetence and corruption.
I am not defending the EF here, just saying that Zeon didn't really get better post OYW.
EF itself didn't have much power to even commit any war crimes later on
Not saying the EF is doing this later on, but here's the grim reality, you don't need much power to commit war crimes. You just need to find someone who are weaker to do it on. The only difference is scale of said crimes.
He certainly ignited the first powder keg, but the Federation filled the gunpowder and lit the match for hin at UC 0 with the whole Lapace incident and using it as an excuse to swind the military arround.
Zeonism only happens because the Earth Federation predecessor didn't want to change it's ways; allowing the rich and powerful over consume the Earth into complete environmental collapse. The Earth Federation was created to ship the poors to space to preserve the Earth for the wealthy and the servants they deem useful. This isn't to take away from individual bad actors like Gihren and Degwin who unquestionably are monsters, but the Earth Federation is the root cause of all the evil that follows in UC. It's literally the ruling hegemony.
Sorry I was being lazy writing that. I mean the federation probably had better ways to deal with Side 3s desire for self-determination that would have left the people with less desire to entertain what the zabi family was pushing.
Bastardizing Deikuns ideals is not true it's putting his ideals into effect. Why do you think Gihran was so loved by Zeon generals becauss they felt he was following Deikyns wishes of freeing them from earths influence. Same thing with Char he's literally following his father's ideals to a T.
But they don't want to topple the Federation, they want structural change because every sphere of the government is unilaterally ruled by a hereditary group of pepole.
During HF they want to stop the ministers from passing bills that give them the power to seize land from whoever they want, while allowing the upper classes in space to return to Earth, damaging the environment even further in the process. I don't know why everyone always acts like they're just winging it, they have very clear goals.
Incidentally, this is what usually happens in reality when revolutions and uprisings that are spurred aand fueled on emotions actually accomplish their goal....that or the ending to Dougram happens.
He does though. Make the Federation do their fucking job. The whole thing that their authority and mandate is predicated upon and they've been neglecting or outright ignoring for decades.
Mafty's running against the clock to force the ministers to give up on passing a very specific set of bills, Hatha has a whole speech for them underlying exactly what they want, they corner the ministers in Adelaide giving them an ultimatum, and people still go "b-but they don't even know what they're doing!!!".
Because that's in a volume that won't be adapted until 2 or so years from now. While there are translations available gundam really just dosent have a majority reading fanbase, so we have to stick with misconceptions about HF until the movies get out and the wider fans actually experience it
To be clear, I have no issue with people choosing to wait until the movies come out to experience it. The issue is when people talk as if they've read HF and are confidently incorrect about it.
I've had people here tell me that Hathaway is insane and that he thinks Quess incites him to be a terrorist in the novel, it's impossible to be charitable towards this sub when you read dumb stuff like that being posted.
I think that if someone wants to discuss something to any semblance of a meaningful degree, they should at least go through the trouble of actually experiencing it. I don't find that to be such an unreasonable expectation.
Thats because you don't just spool up an extremist militant insurgency just to stop the passage of bills for one year. They are the establishment and they have the money, the time, and (apparently) enough popular will to stay in power and wait out the clock to the next election cycle. Is MAFTY just going to disband and waffle around like the Avengers until they try again for the next superhero teamup in a few years? No, because they're a militant insurgency that needs to feed on acts of violence or else wither out due to inactivity.
This is why Hathaway is largely considered a moron for resorting to idealistic terrorism fighting for the hope of a stalling tactic whereas a wiser upstart would have taken advantage of his political connections (as a son of a popular war hero) to better position himself to seize the reins of power and enact the changes that he wants with his own hands - like Reinhard von Lohengramm from Legend of Galactic Heroes, who did orchestrate, facilitate, and take advantage of horrible historic acts to seize power.
Hell, he could have done nothing like his father, sat on his ass until old age, inherit his father's political power to become a leader himself, and then revert the legislation by popular will after the common people (presumably the electorate) feel the pain directly for a generation. Now that's a plan with an actionable timeline and a reasonable chance of long term success and policy permanence.
Quack Salver, who's the one organizing, funding, and feeding intelligence to Mafty is either a general or, by both Hathaway's and Kenneth's best guesses, a minister himself. During HF they're dealing with one problem, I don't know why everyone is so fixated on why they're not working to resolve every single issue with the Federation as an institution.
Mafty's solution is obviously not waterproof, but they're not exactly in a favorable position, they're mustering all they have to stop the bills from passing and making as much of an impression on the population as they can to galvanize them.
There's an entire chapter on Bright and why he didn't become a politician, too, as well as some of Kenneth's similar musings on the matter. You want them to try to do what nobody has managed to in 100 years, you're propising that Hathaway should just go right into the political machine that has never allowed for any positive change to happen in the hopes that this time it works, not to mention that this is literally what Quack Salver is already doing, Mafty exists because he's not succeeding (and if he IS a minister, think about how little everyone else gets to accomplish).
The comparison with Reinhard is weird too, Hathaway does not have anywhere near his influence and he's not interested in becoming a monarch. If he did, someone here would probably be asking what his plan was for when he died and his kid turned out to be a terrible ruler, because, as I'm sure you've gathered from LotGH, there is no perfect solution to that situation either.
Hell, he could have done nothing like his father, sat on his ass until old age, inherit his father's political power to become a leader himself, and then revert the legislation by popular will after the common people (presumably the electorate) feel the pain directly for a generation.
Bright has no political power, he's a propaganda tool at best and a muzzled lapdog at worst, Hathaway would end up the same.
Waiting for a generation to pass you get Victory and the whale graveyard, that's not a solution at all. You can't say Mafty's goals were half baked when your solution is just letting people get deported and killed while the Earth bleeds.
Yes but using a Gundam to blow shit up didn't work any more than making demands did. If Hathaway cannot bring that solution into effect is it really a solution.
That's not what Hathaway and the rest of Mafty are doing, you're either being disingenuous or you didn't read Hathaway's Flash. Based on my interactions in this sub with people who say this kind of thing, the latter seems to be the trend.
If Hathaway cannot bring that solution into effect is it really a solution.
Yeah? If it weren't for the beam barrier, which had never been used on land before, and which they didn't know about until they had no choice but going in anyway, they would have succeeded.
Also, do you just discount every single organization for ultimately failing, or just Mafty? Nobody ever accomplishes anything in the Universal Century, then, might as well not even try and just let the Federation keep killing people and the planet.
Even if the goal was basically "violence until the situation is addressed" that's something the franchise already addresses and acknowledges as at least somewhat effective. In IBO S2 Tekkadan is the conduit that allows the change in Gjallarhorn in the finale, despite the fact that they lose. It's common sense that Gjallarhorn doesn't want a repeat of that and going more authoritarian wouldn't solve that
Less that Mafty has no answer and more that the answers they do have are naive, vague and ineffective. The Earth Federation is from its very conception a nation built on the political and economic exploitation of both Spacenoids and those in the global south to enrich the oligarchs who run it, and they have a vested interest in making sure it stays that way. Any serious reform to create a more equitable system for everyone involved requires more than just the assassinations of a couple politicians, the Federation as it stands needs a social and political revolution in order to achieve that dream. Though given how the UC timeline progresses after Hathaway, we all know that doesn't happen for at least 51 more years, much more if you count stuff like Turn-A, G-Savior or Crossbone Dust as canon.
The Mafty Uprising meanwhile is, despite how violent it is, fundamentally reformist in nature, less Red October, more Occupy Wall Street. Operating under the assumption that the Federation is ultimately good in spite of its problems, and the problem is just that there are a few bad apples in the system without questioning why the apples went rotten to begin with, and they're just "bringing it back to what it should be". Sure, he and his comrades strategically targeted ghouls trying to propose or support openly fascistic bills through the Federation parliament, but that's treating only the worst symptoms and acting like you're curing cancer. It doesn't address the underlying causes of why the Manhunters even exist at all, or why the Federation keeps making Gundams despite being at peace, or why they were involved in five conflicts against Zeon in the span of 30 years beyond some vague allusions to the concept of "corruption".
The idea that the world's problem can be solved all on their own if you just kill all the bad people and that there aren't systems of exploitation in place larger than any one person that need coordinated collective action to overthrow is, to be diplomatic: a child's idea of how the world works. And if that was Tomino's intent when writing Hathaway here (which given how he's framed in juxtaposition to his depiction in CCA, I very much think it was), then he did a great job.
Any serious reform to create a more equitable system for everyone involved requires more than just the assassinations of a couple politicians, the Federation as it stands needs a social and political revolution in order to achieve that dream.
Yeah, and they're aware of that, nobody in Mafty is under the illusion that things are going to magically change because the ministers are dead. The novel even goes into the fact that nobody has managed to do this because of the way the Federation government is structured, it's not a democracy.
Operating under the assumption that the Federation is ultimately good in spite of its problems, and the problem is just that there are a few bad apples in the system without questioning why the apples went rotten to begin with, and they're just "bringing it back to what it should be".
They're not operating under that assumption, and they're not bringing it back to anything, what even possesses you to think that? They know full well that the Federation is built on oppression and discrimination.
Sure, he and his comrades strategically targeted ghouls trying to propose or support openly fascistic bills through the Federation parliament, but that's treating only the worst symptoms and acting like you're curing cancer.
What? It's an immediate problem that will have a snowball effect not only on the environment but on the lower class that's getting killed and deported. What a weird way to phrase this, nobody thinks this is some panacea to the Federation's problems, they're being pressed to act before it's too late.
The idea that the world's problem can be solved all on their own if you just kill all the bad people and that there aren't systems of exploitation in place larger than any one person that need coordinated collective action to overthrow is, to be diplomatic: a child's idea of how the world works.
Which is why they told the Central Cabinet to back down on passing the bills or they'd kill the ministers, instead of just killing the ministers. They responded to an immediate threat by cornering the people in charge, threatening the only thing those people in power care about, their own lives.
You seem to think Mafty is this really idealistic organization that thinks they'll cure the world's ills by cutting the head of the snake, when in reality the actions they take in the novel are aimed at stopping one issue that would decisively impede the environment from recovering (and wouldn't you know it, it's messed up beyond belief by Victory).
Yeah, and they're aware of that, nobody in Mafty is under the illusion that things are going to magically change because the ministers are dead. The novel even goes into the fact that nobody has managed to do this because of the way the Federation government is structured, it's not a democracy.
The novels across the franchise as well as Tomino's notes establish that the Federation is not only a democracy, but practices an ideology they dub "Absolute democracy". At most, there was a short-lived military junta during the One-Year War, but it's basically stated that they go back to being a representative democracy by at least Zeta.
What? It's an immediate problem that will have a snowball effect not only on the environment but on the lower class that's getting killed and deported. What a weird way to phrase this, nobody thinks this is some panacea to the Federation's problems, they're being pressed to act before it's too late.
An immediate problem, sure, and one that needed strong, decisive action against it no less. But that doesn't make Mafty's proposals any more systemic. At best, it makes them a one-issue organisation, and those have a bad habit of not really accomplishing much. And they didn't, which is why they failed.
Which is why they told the Central Cabinet to back down on passing the bills or they'd kill the ministers, instead of just killing the ministers. They responded to an immediate threat by cornering the people in charge, threatening the only thing those people in power care about, their own lives.
And if they had succeeded, what then? Sure, environmentalist policies would be put in place and permanent habitation on the planet would be undone to let it heal, but what would this new government look like? Or if the Federation had capitulated to their demands, where would Mafty go from there?
Also, you claimed that they didn't think it was as simple as cutting the head off the snake while citing an instance of them doing just that.
At most, there was a short-lived military junta during the One-Year War, but it's basically stated that they go back to being a representative democracy by at least Zeta.
Explain to me how a government ruled by a literal cabal that makes decisions on all spheres of government completely unchecked is a representative democracy.
An immediate problem, sure, and one that needed strong, decisive action against it no less. But that doesn't make Mafty's proposals any more systemic. At best, it makes them a one-issue organisation, and those have a bad habit of not really accomplishing much. And they didn't, which is why they failed.
They failed because Hathaway was caught in a beam barrier. And them failing is a far cry from what you claim their goals are, so now the issue is just that they didn't succeed, and suddenly no longer that they're naive?
And if they had succeeded, what then? Sure, environmentalist policies would be put in place and permanent habitation on the planet would be undone to let it heal, but what would this new government look like? Or if the Federation had capitulated to their demands, where would Mafty go from there?
What new government? They weren't going to kill the ministers if they backed down. You're also judging one step in remedying a pressing issue because it's not a solution for everything else too, how does that make any sense whatsoever?
Also, you claimed that they didn't think it was as simple as cutting the head off the snake while citing an instance of them doing just that.
They didn't do just that, I cited an instance of them pressuring the ministers and moving forward with killing them once they didn't give in to the demands, as a last ditch attempt to stop the bills by killing everyone who could vote on it, but half survived and something like a day later they themselves appointed replacements to the ministers who died (one hell of a representative democracy, huh?).
Explain to me how a government ruled by a literal cabal that makes decisions on all spheres of government completely unchecked is a representative democracy.
Many states that claim to be democracies all over the world have business councils and think tanks running the show. To bring up my own country of Australia for a minute, the mining company Adani has been lobbying state and federal governments for decades in order to get access to deposits of rare-earth minerals like lithium or antimony, yet we're still considered a democracy by most governments. And that's just one of the numerous examples of corporations and other interest groups influencing things. Democracies can be corrupt, I'm sorry to be the first one to tell you this.
They failed because Hathaway was caught in a beam barrier. And them failing is a far cry from what you claim their goals are, so now the issue is just that they didn't succeed, and suddenly no longer that they're naive?
If they had a substantive ideology, Mafty would have outlived Hathaway, beam barrier or no. But it didn't have it, and it basically died with Hathaway because of it.
What new government? They weren't going to kill the ministers if they backed down. You're also judging one step in remedying a pressing issue because it's not a solution for everything else too, how does that make any sense whatsoever?
Then that leads back to my point: it had no salient systemic critique. Either the group's ideology was vibes-based or it didn't take issue with the Federation beyond one thing it did: a thing that it was always going to do based on how it was founded, and a simple change of the guard wouldn't fix that.
They didn't do just that, I cited an instance of them pressuring the ministers and moving forward with killing them once they didn't give in to the demands, as a last ditch attempt to stop the bills by killing everyone who could vote on it, but half survived and something like a day later they themselves appointed replacements to the ministers who died (one hell of a representative democracy, huh?)
Again, that's the "cutting off the head of the snake" ideology on full display. Say they had killed all the ministers, what would happen next? A state of emergency would be declared by the military - who were fully on board with the whole brutality against civilians thing and they take over as a junta again to coordinate a government response and crack down on those violent terrorists who slaughtered their civilian government. So then we assume they take out the EFF, well now you have a nation without a functioning government or military. Something is going to come next, whether you (or Mafty) likes it or not, and if they do that, they need a plan for what that "next" is.
Democracies can be corrupt, I'm sorry to be the first one to tell you this.
They're not just corrupt, the ministers rule unchecked in all spheres of government, there are no checks and balances, elected officials are essentially meaningless when you have one group of people holding all the power. It's not an issue of lobbying or anything like that, there is effectively no representation.
If they had a substantive ideology, Mafty would have outlived Hathaway, beam barrier or no. But it didn't have it, and it basically died with Hathaway because of it.
Hathaway himself was informed and galvanized by Quack Salver, Hathaway dying was not the reason they collapsed. Mafty was an attempt by someone already on the inside primarily to address one specific issue.
Then that leads back to my point: it had no salient systemic critique. Either the group's ideology was vibes-based or it didn't take issue with the Federation beyond one thing it did: a thing that it was always going to do based on how it was founded, and a simple change of the guard wouldn't fix that.
What are you talking about? If I act on one issue, does that mean I don't care about anything else, and will never act on anything else? We see Mafty acting on the bills, we don't know what they would have done if they'd succeeded and managed to keep going. Why do you make it so binary? Your points regarding this honestly make zero sense. I'll say it again, they had a very pressing issue to address, why is that a problem?
Again, that's the "cutting off the head of the snake" ideology on full display. Say they had killed all the ministers, what would happen next? A state of emergency would be declared by the military - who were fully on board with the whole brutality against civilians thing and they take over as a junta again to coordinate a government response and crack down on those violent terrorists who slaughtered their civilian government. So then we assume they take out the EFF, well now you have a nation without a functioning government or military. Something is going to come next, whether you (or Mafty) likes it or not, and if they do that, they need a plan for what that "next" is.
The functioning government that let a colony get dropped on their citizens and were happy about it, first of all. But you still seem to be missing the point that this wasn't their initial intent, they wanted to corner the ministers to make them drop the bills, were they supposed to just pack up and go home when their demands weren't met?
Just in case I'm the one failing to communicate properly here, I'll quote vol. 3:
"How many of you are aware that this Adelaide conference aims to legalize the discriminatory mindset of the Federation government? Among the topics on the second day of the Adelaide conference, there's an agenda item for the revision of the Federation government's investigation rights regarding Earth preservation zones, which is nothing short of an atrocious law."
Hathaway's silhouette held up a piece of paper to the light behind him. The faint light illuminated the silhouette's face, and Kenneth recognized without a doubt that it was Hathaway. "Loosely translating this bureaucratic text from the added Article 23, if requested by a Federation government minister, landowners in the Australian continent will be required to provide their land at will. Of course, even those with proper residence permits can have their land taken away. The compensation is that they can claim an area of land in a space colony of the owner's choice equal to the land taken away."
[...]
"If these measures pass in Adelaide, it will snuff out any hope of Earth's nature returning. Then, the purpose of humanity overcoming hardships and moving to the space colonies will be lost. Think about it. If a bill for tens of thousands of privileged classes who want to return to Earth is passed, it's simply that the number of people returning to Earth will increase tenfold. Remember once more, humanity, which rapidly increased only in the last century of the old century, inflicted near-fatal wounds to Earth itself. Moreover, currently, not even a century after the start of space colonization, Earth's seas are still contaminated with residual chemicals. Even the rain is still mixed with chemical substances. Not to mention, the lives of plants and small creatures are far from fully recovered... What does that mean? That's right. Humanity must not return to Earth yet. Yet, the Federation government is beginning preparations for humanity to return to Earth, and before that, they are trying to secure their vested interests. That is the true nature of the conference being held in Adelaide."
Hathaway's eloquence was entirely understood by Kenneth.
"If what you say is true, then you are right."
"So, I declare that we will carry out the purge of the ministers here unless the Central Cabinet abandons these bills. It is possible that after hearing this broadcast, those involved will flee Adelaide. However, after this, anyone trying to escape from the area around Adelaide will be indiscriminately targeted for purge. However, we don't intend to involve the general public, so anyone unrelated has two hours to evacuate from Adelaide. After that, any vehicle or person trying to leave Adelaide will be considered our target."
You frankly seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing, I'm honestly baffled by some of your points.
Edit: I won't bother replying anymore, you seem genuinely incapable of proper textual interpretation. You've gone from a complete mischaracterization of Mafty to arguing over what ifs because your original points didn't hold water, it's exhausting to interact with someone who wants to win an argument instead of properly engaging in discussion. You can talk in circles to yourself if you want.
They're not just corrupt, the ministers rule unchecked in all spheres of government, there are no checks and balances, elected officials are essentially meaningless when you have one group of people holding all the power. It's not an issue of lobbying or anything like that, there is effectively no representation.
You think lobbying doesn't lead to that? Hell, in many countries like America or Russia, it already has. Those two countries are also still democracies. And again, that sidesteps the issue that Yoshiyuki Tomino: creator of the franchise and author of Hathaway's Flash calls the Federation a democracy.
What are you talking about? If I act on one issue, does that mean I don't care about anything else, and will never act on anything else? We see Mafty acting on the bills, we don't know what they would have done if they'd succeeded and managed to keep going. Why do you make it so binary? Your points regarding this honestly make zero sense. I'll say it again, they had a very pressing issue to address, why is that a problem?
This is probably the most bad-faith read you could have on what I said, holy shit. Their theory as shown in both the book and the movie basically comes down to "environmentalism is good, so we need to get every human off the planet, no exceptions" and their praxis based on the same source material is "kill all the bad politicians". If the group holds other beliefs, we don't see them. We can't say they stand for something if we don't see them profess it in some way, and what we do know about them makes their struggle appear Sisyphean.
The functioning government that let a colony get dropped on their citizens and were happy about it, first of all. But you still seem to be missing the point that this wasn't their initial intent, they wanted to corner the ministers to make them drop the bills, were they supposed to just pack up and go home when their demands weren't met?
If they're willing to assassinate other officials, they're probably okay with killing the politicians they said they'd kill if they didn't have their demands met. Meaning they'd need a backup plan if they didn't acquiesce. On that note, they didn't acquiesce.
So Mafty are now put in a situation where the people they said they planned keep alive as long as they dropped one extremely-evil law said they'd never drop it, even under threat (and eventual follow-through) of death. So now that their Plan A has been thoroughly denied, they have three choices. Either A) They die (i.e. the option they went with), B) Give up and run away with their tail in-between their legs, or C) Take over the government and implement the reforms themselves. And given that the entire point of Mafty as an organisation is to keep people off-Earth, they're not going to be able to go with Option B if they want to keep any legitimacy in the eyes of both the public and its membership.
And that brings us back to my statement about how Mafty needs a plan for what comes next after the Federation on both a political and social level if they want to heal the Earth, and that means more than just one policy.
He was between -1 and 7 years old for a pretty important chunk of it. Even the parts he was directly involved in took place when he was at the especially dumb age of 13.
He absolutely needs the documentary, though in non-meme form he probably just looked things up over the years to fill in the gaps, same as anyone. For example, I was alive for the Persian Gulf War. My only direct memories of it are being annoyed that I had to stop playing Nintendo to watch the news.
Feddie Daddy issues and a feddie killed his Newtype crush. There were honestly wars started for less in the UC. Hathaway is a crash out but he's one of the least worst crash outs in the franchise.
He strikes me as the kinda kid who would eventually say "Gihren Zabi was right".
Yes, the Federation is so corrupt that it's hard to tell what kinda government it's actually supposed to be under all that corruption. But his "solution" is dumb as shit, blowing up random mid to low level Federation officers would achieve little on its own but the additional civilian casualties just makes a bad idea even worse.
So, you know, just like most people in a position of power in this series about man's inhumanity to man.
Imo degwin zabi is the root cause of all uc wars. Him bastardising deikuns ideals for his authoritarianism caused every problem except the zanscare empire which the feds would have been better prepared for if not for the decades of terrorism and pointless wars they fought.
brb making a crackpot theory that Degwin is a feddie spy to cause a war that would reinforce their power later on
Don’t even have to go that far. Degwin was very obviously working behind the scenes with Revil to control both sides, but Zeon and the UC got away from them both.
The missing piece, finally Gundam will be good! /s
And before anyone comes at me for being a feddie, the zeon are much much worse
True. While I like some characters from Zeon, the faction as a whole is terrible. Zeon and its many remnant spitters only fanned the animosity between Earthnoids and Spacenoids!
If it wasn't for the first Neo Zeon war, I think is a chance for some improvement and reform within the Fedearaion.
I side with the Fedies; but yeah thy're fucked. Zeon on the otherhand is infuriatingly and horribly evil by comparison.
Yeah,the federation didn't drop a colony on Dublin
They just let it happen to reduce food consumption
Average British plan concerning the Irish
Every problem?
What about the mass exile of people into space? Or the economic and political chokehold on space colonies and discrimination of spacenoids?
Literally the whole thing started due to the Earthgov and federation authoritarism and oppression.
Agreed. Nothing would have defended the BS the E.F.F pulled.
But Zeon under the Zabi's somehow managed to be worse than it is the problem.
All they had to do was not commit genocide and we'd be talking about zeon like they were the Rebel Alliance, plucky and brave freedom fighters with a few droids and a child of destiny. Wait sorry wrong franchise
Committing mass murder in the millions against neutral colonies at the start of the war was certainly a choice.
Careful, talk like that will get you labeled a nazi sympathizer by the fandom!
It’s amazing how often people fail to critically read the story in favor of blank accepting the UC as the “good guys”
The fandom loves to talk about how there are no good guys in Gundam, but hates it when someone applies that concept to UC.
If one side is the source of all evil and all the morally wrong actions of the other side are just reactions or direct results of the actions of the evil side, then one side is clearly the good guy.
Also contributed heavily to just how fucked the enviroment is with all the colony drops and nuclear powered mobile suits they were using in the fights they kept starting.
Which then explode violently with enough power to reduce an unlucky pilot into a burger patty esque mess... Just look at the infamous case of Bernard Wiseman...
the root cause is the Federation, the Zabis would not have achieved anything if they didn't coopt a legitimate movement
If the revolution had happened according to deikuns ideals there would be no one year war
It wouldn't have worked regardless.
Zeon's ideal was naive as shit and his popularity outside of Side 3 wasn't anywhere near enough to get the rest of the colonies on board. Much like the original EF charter Zeon Zum Deikun pins his hopes on some nebulous "New kind of Human" to fix all these problems and as we see repeatedly Newtypes arn't any bettor or worse at leading than the Oldtypes.
They have the same flaws and vices as any other human.
The most he could have pulled peacefully is Side 3, anything more would have gotten a response from the EF and you still get a massive war.
That's just plain not true, Deikun had clear, specific and well reasoned arguments based on politics and economics. Besides, at no point did he call for a war.
Your dreaming if you think the Federation would just sit and let him pull all those colonies out of it without a fight. Side 3 didn't even have it's own house in order nvm building a new nation.
That doesn't mean the appropreate action is premptive genocidal terrorism.
It will happen regardless.
Zeon's plans mean a conflict is inevitable. It just comes down to which side blinks first.
The Federations fascistic policies, unchecked greed, anti-spacenoid/poor people racism, and exploitation of the colonies means conflict is inevitable.
FTFY
The point that shot over your head and left the galaxy is that a conflict is inevitable. It doesn't matter who starts it.
Zeon Zum Deikun on the other hand naively held to his vision that it could be dealt with peacefully and that Newtypes would fix things in the long run.
The irony being that belief also helped pushed things towards conflict just as the Federations corruption did.
He was kicking the bucket down the road and putting too much on the future to fix the shit of the present like a bad parent. With him as a parent, its a miracle only Char went Cuckoo
The Federation is deeply flawed to begin with. If the colonies were living just fine there wouldn't even be a great revolutionary thinker to begin with.
And yet many rejected Zeon and sided with the EF or declared themselves neutral so clearly Zeon's ideology wasn't as popular as his believers claim.
It doesnt mean the Federation wasn't deeply flawed, just that either the colonies that sided with them benifited enough they didnt care about Zeon or that the Zabi's blatant warmongering and faccism was more if a turn off than precived mistreatment from the Federation.
There's deep problems with the United States for example. That doesn't even remotely make me want to join North Korea, China, or Russia for opposing them. What Israel is doing do Gaza is inexcusable but you shouldnt join Al Qaeda in protest.
If the resistance movements didn't keep popping up and being worse, I always theorize the Federation would've dropped dead as it couldn't justify itself.
Hence Gaia Gear having Metatron leave without being Zeon Mk 69 is the cause of their defeat I feel
Not the Federation punting the lower classes to space then ignoring their needs, destroying the environment, and straight up killing hundreds of thousands of its own citizens?
The Zabis are awful but the seeds of war were sown by the Federation long before the Principality existed, and well after too. Zeon absolutely did not "cause every problem except for Zanscare", they wouldn't even exist if the Federation didn't already have its fair share of issues.
ATP I blame more his inability as a father than his actual authoritarism because damn bro.
He wouldn't get much power or following if Federation didn't constantly shit on colonies. He just used people's hate for Federation for his own gain.
Was Zeon in during One Year War worse? Yes, but it all started thanks to Federation. On top Federation soon catched up with war crimes thanks to Titans.
Also Federation was always unprepared because their leaders didn't care much for anything except for their own gain and well being.
I mean post OYW Zeon movements aren't exactly better in this regards either. Although I do agree that EF being scummy.
Yeah, but Titans Remnants were the same and EF itself didn't have much power to even commit any war crimes later on, as they were barely able to just defend themselves thanks to years of incompetence and corruption.
I am not defending the EF here, just saying that Zeon didn't really get better post OYW.
Not saying the EF is doing this later on, but here's the grim reality, you don't need much power to commit war crimes. You just need to find someone who are weaker to do it on. The only difference is scale of said crimes.
He certainly ignited the first powder keg, but the Federation filled the gunpowder and lit the match for hin at UC 0 with the whole Lapace incident and using it as an excuse to swind the military arround.
Zeonism only happens because the Earth Federation predecessor didn't want to change it's ways; allowing the rich and powerful over consume the Earth into complete environmental collapse. The Earth Federation was created to ship the poors to space to preserve the Earth for the wealthy and the servants they deem useful. This isn't to take away from individual bad actors like Gihren and Degwin who unquestionably are monsters, but the Earth Federation is the root cause of all the evil that follows in UC. It's literally the ruling hegemony.
Nah there were probably better (for everyone) ways to deal with zeon zum deikum that would have also directed things away from war.
One of those options was just not killing him lol
Sorry I was being lazy writing that. I mean the federation probably had better ways to deal with Side 3s desire for self-determination that would have left the people with less desire to entertain what the zabi family was pushing.
Bastardizing Deikuns ideals is not true it's putting his ideals into effect. Why do you think Gihran was so loved by Zeon generals becauss they felt he was following Deikyns wishes of freeing them from earths influence. Same thing with Char he's literally following his father's ideals to a T.
Does he need a documentary if he lived thru all that shit?
No, but the problem is in the end Mafty has no answer to these problems. He just keeps killing until he's put down.
If they topple the Feds, they probably be like: Now what...
But they don't want to topple the Federation, they want structural change because every sphere of the government is unilaterally ruled by a hereditary group of pepole.
During HF they want to stop the ministers from passing bills that give them the power to seize land from whoever they want, while allowing the upper classes in space to return to Earth, damaging the environment even further in the process. I don't know why everyone always acts like they're just winging it, they have very clear goals.
Probably because few of them have actually read the books
Incidentally, this is what usually happens in reality when revolutions and uprisings that are spurred aand fueled on emotions actually accomplish their goal....that or the ending to Dougram happens.
He does though. Make the Federation do their fucking job. The whole thing that their authority and mandate is predicated upon and they've been neglecting or outright ignoring for decades.
Mafty's running against the clock to force the ministers to give up on passing a very specific set of bills, Hatha has a whole speech for them underlying exactly what they want, they corner the ministers in Adelaide giving them an ultimatum, and people still go "b-but they don't even know what they're doing!!!".
Because that's in a volume that won't be adapted until 2 or so years from now. While there are translations available gundam really just dosent have a majority reading fanbase, so we have to stick with misconceptions about HF until the movies get out and the wider fans actually experience it
To be clear, I have no issue with people choosing to wait until the movies come out to experience it. The issue is when people talk as if they've read HF and are confidently incorrect about it.
I've had people here tell me that Hathaway is insane and that he thinks Quess incites him to be a terrorist in the novel, it's impossible to be charitable towards this sub when you read dumb stuff like that being posted.
I think that if someone wants to discuss something to any semblance of a meaningful degree, they should at least go through the trouble of actually experiencing it. I don't find that to be such an unreasonable expectation.
Thats because you don't just spool up an extremist militant insurgency just to stop the passage of bills for one year. They are the establishment and they have the money, the time, and (apparently) enough popular will to stay in power and wait out the clock to the next election cycle. Is MAFTY just going to disband and waffle around like the Avengers until they try again for the next superhero teamup in a few years? No, because they're a militant insurgency that needs to feed on acts of violence or else wither out due to inactivity.
This is why Hathaway is largely considered a moron for resorting to idealistic terrorism fighting for the hope of a stalling tactic whereas a wiser upstart would have taken advantage of his political connections (as a son of a popular war hero) to better position himself to seize the reins of power and enact the changes that he wants with his own hands - like Reinhard von Lohengramm from Legend of Galactic Heroes, who did orchestrate, facilitate, and take advantage of horrible historic acts to seize power.
Hell, he could have done nothing like his father, sat on his ass until old age, inherit his father's political power to become a leader himself, and then revert the legislation by popular will after the common people (presumably the electorate) feel the pain directly for a generation. Now that's a plan with an actionable timeline and a reasonable chance of long term success and policy permanence.
Quack Salver, who's the one organizing, funding, and feeding intelligence to Mafty is either a general or, by both Hathaway's and Kenneth's best guesses, a minister himself. During HF they're dealing with one problem, I don't know why everyone is so fixated on why they're not working to resolve every single issue with the Federation as an institution.
Mafty's solution is obviously not waterproof, but they're not exactly in a favorable position, they're mustering all they have to stop the bills from passing and making as much of an impression on the population as they can to galvanize them.
There's an entire chapter on Bright and why he didn't become a politician, too, as well as some of Kenneth's similar musings on the matter. You want them to try to do what nobody has managed to in 100 years, you're propising that Hathaway should just go right into the political machine that has never allowed for any positive change to happen in the hopes that this time it works, not to mention that this is literally what Quack Salver is already doing, Mafty exists because he's not succeeding (and if he IS a minister, think about how little everyone else gets to accomplish).
The comparison with Reinhard is weird too, Hathaway does not have anywhere near his influence and he's not interested in becoming a monarch. If he did, someone here would probably be asking what his plan was for when he died and his kid turned out to be a terrible ruler, because, as I'm sure you've gathered from LotGH, there is no perfect solution to that situation either.
Bright has no political power, he's a propaganda tool at best and a muzzled lapdog at worst, Hathaway would end up the same.
Waiting for a generation to pass you get Victory and the whale graveyard, that's not a solution at all. You can't say Mafty's goals were half baked when your solution is just letting people get deported and killed while the Earth bleeds.
Yes but using a Gundam to blow shit up didn't work any more than making demands did. If Hathaway cannot bring that solution into effect is it really a solution.
That's not what Hathaway and the rest of Mafty are doing, you're either being disingenuous or you didn't read Hathaway's Flash. Based on my interactions in this sub with people who say this kind of thing, the latter seems to be the trend.
Yeah? If it weren't for the beam barrier, which had never been used on land before, and which they didn't know about until they had no choice but going in anyway, they would have succeeded.
Also, do you just discount every single organization for ultimately failing, or just Mafty? Nobody ever accomplishes anything in the Universal Century, then, might as well not even try and just let the Federation keep killing people and the planet.
Even if the goal was basically "violence until the situation is addressed" that's something the franchise already addresses and acknowledges as at least somewhat effective. In IBO S2 Tekkadan is the conduit that allows the change in Gjallarhorn in the finale, despite the fact that they lose. It's common sense that Gjallarhorn doesn't want a repeat of that and going more authoritarian wouldn't solve that
what are you even saying at this point
Less that Mafty has no answer and more that the answers they do have are naive, vague and ineffective. The Earth Federation is from its very conception a nation built on the political and economic exploitation of both Spacenoids and those in the global south to enrich the oligarchs who run it, and they have a vested interest in making sure it stays that way. Any serious reform to create a more equitable system for everyone involved requires more than just the assassinations of a couple politicians, the Federation as it stands needs a social and political revolution in order to achieve that dream. Though given how the UC timeline progresses after Hathaway, we all know that doesn't happen for at least 51 more years, much more if you count stuff like Turn-A, G-Savior or Crossbone Dust as canon.
The Mafty Uprising meanwhile is, despite how violent it is, fundamentally reformist in nature, less Red October, more Occupy Wall Street. Operating under the assumption that the Federation is ultimately good in spite of its problems, and the problem is just that there are a few bad apples in the system without questioning why the apples went rotten to begin with, and they're just "bringing it back to what it should be". Sure, he and his comrades strategically targeted ghouls trying to propose or support openly fascistic bills through the Federation parliament, but that's treating only the worst symptoms and acting like you're curing cancer. It doesn't address the underlying causes of why the Manhunters even exist at all, or why the Federation keeps making Gundams despite being at peace, or why they were involved in five conflicts against Zeon in the span of 30 years beyond some vague allusions to the concept of "corruption".
The idea that the world's problem can be solved all on their own if you just kill all the bad people and that there aren't systems of exploitation in place larger than any one person that need coordinated collective action to overthrow is, to be diplomatic: a child's idea of how the world works. And if that was Tomino's intent when writing Hathaway here (which given how he's framed in juxtaposition to his depiction in CCA, I very much think it was), then he did a great job.
Yeah, and they're aware of that, nobody in Mafty is under the illusion that things are going to magically change because the ministers are dead. The novel even goes into the fact that nobody has managed to do this because of the way the Federation government is structured, it's not a democracy.
They're not operating under that assumption, and they're not bringing it back to anything, what even possesses you to think that? They know full well that the Federation is built on oppression and discrimination.
What? It's an immediate problem that will have a snowball effect not only on the environment but on the lower class that's getting killed and deported. What a weird way to phrase this, nobody thinks this is some panacea to the Federation's problems, they're being pressed to act before it's too late.
Which is why they told the Central Cabinet to back down on passing the bills or they'd kill the ministers, instead of just killing the ministers. They responded to an immediate threat by cornering the people in charge, threatening the only thing those people in power care about, their own lives.
You seem to think Mafty is this really idealistic organization that thinks they'll cure the world's ills by cutting the head of the snake, when in reality the actions they take in the novel are aimed at stopping one issue that would decisively impede the environment from recovering (and wouldn't you know it, it's messed up beyond belief by Victory).
The novels across the franchise as well as Tomino's notes establish that the Federation is not only a democracy, but practices an ideology they dub "Absolute democracy". At most, there was a short-lived military junta during the One-Year War, but it's basically stated that they go back to being a representative democracy by at least Zeta.
An immediate problem, sure, and one that needed strong, decisive action against it no less. But that doesn't make Mafty's proposals any more systemic. At best, it makes them a one-issue organisation, and those have a bad habit of not really accomplishing much. And they didn't, which is why they failed.
And if they had succeeded, what then? Sure, environmentalist policies would be put in place and permanent habitation on the planet would be undone to let it heal, but what would this new government look like? Or if the Federation had capitulated to their demands, where would Mafty go from there?
Also, you claimed that they didn't think it was as simple as cutting the head off the snake while citing an instance of them doing just that.
Explain to me how a government ruled by a literal cabal that makes decisions on all spheres of government completely unchecked is a representative democracy.
They failed because Hathaway was caught in a beam barrier. And them failing is a far cry from what you claim their goals are, so now the issue is just that they didn't succeed, and suddenly no longer that they're naive?
What new government? They weren't going to kill the ministers if they backed down. You're also judging one step in remedying a pressing issue because it's not a solution for everything else too, how does that make any sense whatsoever?
They didn't do just that, I cited an instance of them pressuring the ministers and moving forward with killing them once they didn't give in to the demands, as a last ditch attempt to stop the bills by killing everyone who could vote on it, but half survived and something like a day later they themselves appointed replacements to the ministers who died (one hell of a representative democracy, huh?).
Many states that claim to be democracies all over the world have business councils and think tanks running the show. To bring up my own country of Australia for a minute, the mining company Adani has been lobbying state and federal governments for decades in order to get access to deposits of rare-earth minerals like lithium or antimony, yet we're still considered a democracy by most governments. And that's just one of the numerous examples of corporations and other interest groups influencing things. Democracies can be corrupt, I'm sorry to be the first one to tell you this.
If they had a substantive ideology, Mafty would have outlived Hathaway, beam barrier or no. But it didn't have it, and it basically died with Hathaway because of it.
Then that leads back to my point: it had no salient systemic critique. Either the group's ideology was vibes-based or it didn't take issue with the Federation beyond one thing it did: a thing that it was always going to do based on how it was founded, and a simple change of the guard wouldn't fix that.
Again, that's the "cutting off the head of the snake" ideology on full display. Say they had killed all the ministers, what would happen next? A state of emergency would be declared by the military - who were fully on board with the whole brutality against civilians thing and they take over as a junta again to coordinate a government response and crack down on those violent terrorists who slaughtered their civilian government. So then we assume they take out the EFF, well now you have a nation without a functioning government or military. Something is going to come next, whether you (or Mafty) likes it or not, and if they do that, they need a plan for what that "next" is.
They're not just corrupt, the ministers rule unchecked in all spheres of government, there are no checks and balances, elected officials are essentially meaningless when you have one group of people holding all the power. It's not an issue of lobbying or anything like that, there is effectively no representation.
Hathaway himself was informed and galvanized by Quack Salver, Hathaway dying was not the reason they collapsed. Mafty was an attempt by someone already on the inside primarily to address one specific issue.
What are you talking about? If I act on one issue, does that mean I don't care about anything else, and will never act on anything else? We see Mafty acting on the bills, we don't know what they would have done if they'd succeeded and managed to keep going. Why do you make it so binary? Your points regarding this honestly make zero sense. I'll say it again, they had a very pressing issue to address, why is that a problem?
The functioning government that let a colony get dropped on their citizens and were happy about it, first of all. But you still seem to be missing the point that this wasn't their initial intent, they wanted to corner the ministers to make them drop the bills, were they supposed to just pack up and go home when their demands weren't met?
Just in case I'm the one failing to communicate properly here, I'll quote vol. 3:
You frankly seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing, I'm honestly baffled by some of your points.
Edit: I won't bother replying anymore, you seem genuinely incapable of proper textual interpretation. You've gone from a complete mischaracterization of Mafty to arguing over what ifs because your original points didn't hold water, it's exhausting to interact with someone who wants to win an argument instead of properly engaging in discussion. You can talk in circles to yourself if you want.
You think lobbying doesn't lead to that? Hell, in many countries like America or Russia, it already has. Those two countries are also still democracies. And again, that sidesteps the issue that Yoshiyuki Tomino: creator of the franchise and author of Hathaway's Flash calls the Federation a democracy.
This is probably the most bad-faith read you could have on what I said, holy shit. Their theory as shown in both the book and the movie basically comes down to "environmentalism is good, so we need to get every human off the planet, no exceptions" and their praxis based on the same source material is "kill all the bad politicians". If the group holds other beliefs, we don't see them. We can't say they stand for something if we don't see them profess it in some way, and what we do know about them makes their struggle appear Sisyphean.
If they're willing to assassinate other officials, they're probably okay with killing the politicians they said they'd kill if they didn't have their demands met. Meaning they'd need a backup plan if they didn't acquiesce. On that note, they didn't acquiesce.
So Mafty are now put in a situation where the people they said they planned keep alive as long as they dropped one extremely-evil law said they'd never drop it, even under threat (and eventual follow-through) of death. So now that their Plan A has been thoroughly denied, they have three choices. Either A) They die (i.e. the option they went with), B) Give up and run away with their tail in-between their legs, or C) Take over the government and implement the reforms themselves. And given that the entire point of Mafty as an organisation is to keep people off-Earth, they're not going to be able to go with Option B if they want to keep any legitimacy in the eyes of both the public and its membership.
And that brings us back to my statement about how Mafty needs a plan for what comes next after the Federation on both a political and social level if they want to heal the Earth, and that means more than just one policy.
He was between -1 and 7 years old for a pretty important chunk of it. Even the parts he was directly involved in took place when he was at the especially dumb age of 13.
He absolutely needs the documentary, though in non-meme form he probably just looked things up over the years to fill in the gaps, same as anyone. For example, I was alive for the Persian Gulf War. My only direct memories of it are being annoyed that I had to stop playing Nintendo to watch the news.
Idk bro. Getting kidnapped with only 7 years is a very wholesome experience
He’s so cool.
Feddie Daddy issues and a feddie killed his Newtype crush. There were honestly wars started for less in the UC. Hathaway is a crash out but he's one of the least worst crash outs in the franchise.
He strikes me as the kinda kid who would eventually say "Gihren Zabi was right".
Yes, the Federation is so corrupt that it's hard to tell what kinda government it's actually supposed to be under all that corruption. But his "solution" is dumb as shit, blowing up random mid to low level Federation officers would achieve little on its own but the additional civilian casualties just makes a bad idea even worse.
So, you know, just like most people in a position of power in this series about man's inhumanity to man.
Xi looks fucking adorable in that meme all things aside.
terrorist member of the Noa family
Wait until they release Mirai's revenge: Mirai Flasher
OH F%@$
Followed by "Cheimin's Totally Awesome Summer of Breaking the Cycle of Violence."
Thats my goat
He's right icl. His methods are questionable though unless there's something that hasn't been revealed to us yet though
I hate him so much
Newbie question: is there a documentary or YouTube video that explains the entire UC timeline in detail? 🍿