The level 5 mastery pack was on sale, same price for 12 months omega. I bought one for each account. 6 months Omega, enough Plex for another 6 on each account at least initially. I sold almost all the skill extractors with the deal immediately for about 8 billion, I was not going to use them. Then I had tons of geckos I bought for cheap 11 years ago, figuring it was a good hedge against in game inflation. Then the discounted Omega time/Plex promotion went active, so I got 12 additional months for each account instead of 6.
18 months of game time for each account for the price of 12 (each) plus a free 8 billion.
That 8 billion would have cost about $500 usd a little over a year since I last (regularly) played.
It’s like meal prepping, it’s easier and cheaper if you do it ahead vs buying fresh. For some people, they know they’ll be playing for x amount of time, or value to omega training even if they dont.
I was thinking the jump clones function more as Hardware with the Consciousness being the software. ( or maybe comparing them to clothing might be a better analogy your shirt doesn't have a fear of being washed.)
No, the clone actually dies but the consciousness is transferred the moment of death.
In the lore the hardest part of becoming a capsuleer is accepting that first death knowing that another 'you' would just wake up somewhere and continue on.
"You" would have functionally died though. You would never live again. Another person, with the same memory, and the same body, lives on. But "you", you are dead.
Yes, that's the part he's referring to. A capsuleer has elevated their perspective beyond their immediate physical form, and extends their definition of self to all those clones that come later. Transference is nothing more than a (usually painful) shift of perspective, time and space, etc.
Here's a thought experiment, similar to the classic trek transporter (mis)concept: If someone were to transfer your mind and memories into a new clone body whenever you fell asleep, without your knowledge, you would not be able to notice, at least immediately. To your perspective you would just be sleeping and waking as normal, living each day as a layer on top of the last.
However, if you became aware of this, you would probably consider it a form of death, as you naturally fear that the current "you" would no longer exist, even despite the perfect copy. And this is not due to any change in the system, but just by becoming aware of it.
Capsuleers view the death of a clone as no different than the shock that comes from waking from a nightmare. They don't see the death of an individual clone as "death", as all clones are just physical vessels of the same "self".
Another piece of lore iirc is that the illusion breaks if the brainscan isn't at the time of death. It's why normal people can't just be cloned even if they might be important or are rich enough. If memories are transplanted with a sudden break in continuity then ??? happens but it isn't good. Also I guess the process to get a brainscan apparently flashes the brain too hard to not be at any time other than near death anyway.
The trick is that when the clone wakes up for the first time after 'dying' there is no gap, they dont feel like a different 'you'. They lived that life and never died even though they are in another body for all they can tell. The new clone experienced everything and just woke up without any gap at all so the fear is gone.
Now they do like in the eve novels and casually jump into molten metal after they are done delivering a message to someone.
Or like in game, expose themselves to the vacuum of space to save 5 min of travel time lol.
I mean the fear of death comes from the idea of ceasing to exist or be around completely. If you knew for a fact that your being or consciousness will continue even after your vessel perishes and you get brought back in the same kind of body with all your knowledge and everything, it really wouldn't be much of an issue. Maybe some hesitation on fear of pain or injury but that doesnt really stop people from doing dangerous stuff already.
Well to be fair thats because its alien tech to us and have no real understanding or concept of it to relate to. To the game clones its probably no different than changing a shirt. The in game character is an immortal being that can jump between clones at will essentially and learn skills matrix style. "Dieing" isn't a real thing to them and is probably like stubbing your toe really bad to them, an annoying and mild inconvenience with some pain and uncomfortableness.
Jumping out of a plane is scary as shit until you do it a few times then you kind of just get used to it. But yes I see your point and get where your coming from.
Yeah but when you jump out of a plane you aren't copying your consciousness, ending it, and starting a new totally separate consciousness that happens to share your traits.
I've read two of the eve novels. Both of them make it clear it's terrifying to think about and is a philosophical quandry. A capsuleer before and after getting podded. The next person is clearly a copy and is missing some short term memory immediately before the cloning process. They don't remember their death, but the other capsuleers hear them screaming over comms. And they are somber, dull. Any energy and zest they had attending a wild party days before, the clone is a bald, hours old imprint trying to assemble their thoughts with no real zest, but they are capable of functioning, but they behave almost soulless.
Now a jump clone that doesnt get podded, yeah, they are preserved and frozen. But, imagine being the original, frozen in a station for a year, and then you wake up with programmed memories shoved into your brain that you never actually experienced.
Just on your last sentence, since I haven't read the novels or comment on them or what they portray, its not a different you, you experienced it, you have one consciousness, not mutiples, you are you whether in one body or another, you experienced everything, they aren't someone elses memories. Probably the best and closest analogy would be having an extremely vivid dream and you die in the dream to immediately wake up sitting up quickly out of breath and heart racing. In the dream you felt the pain and fear but wake up in your real body or new present body completely fine with the trauma and knowledge you just died, for us we cope with that by knowing it was a dream and not real.
What? The copy is not conscious, its an empty vessel until your consciousness is transferred to it, it has no experiences or memories besides your own from your consciousness once its transferred to it.
Is this from the book or game? If the book is based on the original clone system, you essentially created a save point by backing up a clone with your current consciousness "current skill points" your knowledge and memoirs up to that point. If you die, it wakes up and continues from that point without the most recent memories, as such its still essentially just waking up, there is no other memories or someone elses existence, its still just you, but now knowing you woke up in a backup clone you made two weeks ago and your wondering what happened in those two weeks. If its current game mechanics, there is no longer a backup clone state or anything you "save" all your knowledge and memories, "skill points" are immediately available in the new clone, like waking up from a dream all the sudden in a new place knowing everything that just happend elsewhere
This actually sums up what you're not quite grasping. You said it yourself without even realizing the full implications. Yes, you die...and then it wakes up.
But you remain dead and oblivious to the fact that there is a perfect copy of you out there neatly sliding into your identity.
[Faction Mindlink clone enters the chat]
I have a complete high grade nirvana set after CCP basically handed me 8 billion for resubcribing.
That faction mindlink is looking like a bargain.
Damn I must have missed that resub deal wtf.
The level 5 mastery pack was on sale, same price for 12 months omega. I bought one for each account. 6 months Omega, enough Plex for another 6 on each account at least initially. I sold almost all the skill extractors with the deal immediately for about 8 billion, I was not going to use them. Then I had tons of geckos I bought for cheap 11 years ago, figuring it was a good hedge against in game inflation. Then the discounted Omega time/Plex promotion went active, so I got 12 additional months for each account instead of 6.
18 months of game time for each account for the price of 12 (each) plus a free 8 billion.
That 8 billion would have cost about $500 usd a little over a year since I last (regularly) played.
so you bought it, they didn't hand it to you
You’re talking to people who’d drop thousands of dollars to sub for years if it meant getting a discount
It’s like meal prepping, it’s easier and cheaper if you do it ahead vs buying fresh. For some people, they know they’ll be playing for x amount of time, or value to omega training even if they dont.
The simplified choices for the same price were:
12 months of Omega game time.... That's all.
simplified, 18 months of Omega game time plus 8 billion in isk.
Of those two, which would you choose?
this is how they get you
I was thinking the jump clones function more as Hardware with the Consciousness being the software. ( or maybe comparing them to clothing might be a better analogy your shirt doesn't have a fear of being washed.)
No, the clone actually dies but the consciousness is transferred the moment of death.
In the lore the hardest part of becoming a capsuleer is accepting that first death knowing that another 'you' would just wake up somewhere and continue on.
SOMA captures this very well imo.
"You" would have functionally died though. You would never live again. Another person, with the same memory, and the same body, lives on. But "you", you are dead.
Yes, that's the part he's referring to. A capsuleer has elevated their perspective beyond their immediate physical form, and extends their definition of self to all those clones that come later. Transference is nothing more than a (usually painful) shift of perspective, time and space, etc.
Here's a thought experiment, similar to the classic trek transporter (mis)concept: If someone were to transfer your mind and memories into a new clone body whenever you fell asleep, without your knowledge, you would not be able to notice, at least immediately. To your perspective you would just be sleeping and waking as normal, living each day as a layer on top of the last.
However, if you became aware of this, you would probably consider it a form of death, as you naturally fear that the current "you" would no longer exist, even despite the perfect copy. And this is not due to any change in the system, but just by becoming aware of it.
Capsuleers view the death of a clone as no different than the shock that comes from waking from a nightmare. They don't see the death of an individual clone as "death", as all clones are just physical vessels of the same "self".
Another piece of lore iirc is that the illusion breaks if the brainscan isn't at the time of death. It's why normal people can't just be cloned even if they might be important or are rich enough. If memories are transplanted with a sudden break in continuity then ??? happens but it isn't good. Also I guess the process to get a brainscan apparently flashes the brain too hard to not be at any time other than near death anyway.
Exactly.
The trick is that when the clone wakes up for the first time after 'dying' there is no gap, they dont feel like a different 'you'. They lived that life and never died even though they are in another body for all they can tell. The new clone experienced everything and just woke up without any gap at all so the fear is gone.
Now they do like in the eve novels and casually jump into molten metal after they are done delivering a message to someone.
Or like in game, expose themselves to the vacuum of space to save 5 min of travel time lol.
Thinking meat?
I mean the fear of death comes from the idea of ceasing to exist or be around completely. If you knew for a fact that your being or consciousness will continue even after your vessel perishes and you get brought back in the same kind of body with all your knowledge and everything, it really wouldn't be much of an issue. Maybe some hesitation on fear of pain or injury but that doesnt really stop people from doing dangerous stuff already.
Nah, the idea of most scifi teleporters scares the shit out of me.
I instantly die, and a copy of me appears elsewhere? No thanks, I'll stay right here.
Well to be fair thats because its alien tech to us and have no real understanding or concept of it to relate to. To the game clones its probably no different than changing a shirt. The in game character is an immortal being that can jump between clones at will essentially and learn skills matrix style. "Dieing" isn't a real thing to them and is probably like stubbing your toe really bad to them, an annoying and mild inconvenience with some pain and uncomfortableness.
Jumping out of a plane is scary as shit until you do it a few times then you kind of just get used to it. But yes I see your point and get where your coming from.
Yeah but when you jump out of a plane you aren't copying your consciousness, ending it, and starting a new totally separate consciousness that happens to share your traits.
I've read two of the eve novels. Both of them make it clear it's terrifying to think about and is a philosophical quandry. A capsuleer before and after getting podded. The next person is clearly a copy and is missing some short term memory immediately before the cloning process. They don't remember their death, but the other capsuleers hear them screaming over comms. And they are somber, dull. Any energy and zest they had attending a wild party days before, the clone is a bald, hours old imprint trying to assemble their thoughts with no real zest, but they are capable of functioning, but they behave almost soulless.
Now a jump clone that doesnt get podded, yeah, they are preserved and frozen. But, imagine being the original, frozen in a station for a year, and then you wake up with programmed memories shoved into your brain that you never actually experienced.
Just on your last sentence, since I haven't read the novels or comment on them or what they portray, its not a different you, you experienced it, you have one consciousness, not mutiples, you are you whether in one body or another, you experienced everything, they aren't someone elses memories. Probably the best and closest analogy would be having an extremely vivid dream and you die in the dream to immediately wake up sitting up quickly out of breath and heart racing. In the dream you felt the pain and fear but wake up in your real body or new present body completely fine with the trauma and knowledge you just died, for us we cope with that by knowing it was a dream and not real.
Perhaps that could be true for a fictional world, but, if I were copied and retained, the copy would be conscious. I would be conscious.
What? The copy is not conscious, its an empty vessel until your consciousness is transferred to it, it has no experiences or memories besides your own from your consciousness once its transferred to it.
What I am saying is consciousness doesn't transfer.
Is this from the book or game? If the book is based on the original clone system, you essentially created a save point by backing up a clone with your current consciousness "current skill points" your knowledge and memoirs up to that point. If you die, it wakes up and continues from that point without the most recent memories, as such its still essentially just waking up, there is no other memories or someone elses existence, its still just you, but now knowing you woke up in a backup clone you made two weeks ago and your wondering what happened in those two weeks. If its current game mechanics, there is no longer a backup clone state or anything you "save" all your knowledge and memories, "skill points" are immediately available in the new clone, like waking up from a dream all the sudden in a new place knowing everything that just happend elsewhere
This actually sums up what you're not quite grasping. You said it yourself without even realizing the full implications. Yes, you die...and then it wakes up.
But you remain dead and oblivious to the fact that there is a perfect copy of you out there neatly sliding into your identity.
Meanwhile my clone whose only purpose is to spin an ishtar for 16 hours a day just self-destructed itself
Can't you rename clones?
I think so, never bothered to.