I have a ton of these yellow Lionmax deck screws and I can finish framing by tomorrow if using these screws for joist framing and blocking installation, which is perfect for my schedule.
The Simpson 'structural' screws cannot be purchased until big box stores open on Friday due to holiday.
Lionmax is 'deck' screw; and Simpson is 'structural screw. Looking at these 2 types, I don't see the difference, except for the head. Should I just continue with Lionmax and finish framing by tomorrow instead of waiting for big box stores to open Friday to purchase?
Nope. Neither one of those should be use for joist hangers. You can use the second for blocking or structural laminating of beams and the like, but they’re too large for hangers. The first should not be used for anything other than attaching deck boards.
How about blocking and rim joists?
The first no. The second, maybe, as long as it’s a rim joist that’s not also a flush beam. Even for that though, they’re a little short. A 3” screw through a rim joist is only going to give you 1 1/2” of threads in the end grain of the joists, which is not much at all. For this use, I prefer 4 1/2” or 6” screws if I’m not going to use hangers.
Why couldn’t the first be used for blocking? That is a non-structural component and shouldn’t be part of any load transfer. As long as the screws are exterior rated, they should be fine for any non-structural connections.
You’d more than fine for blocking. Many guys would use a 3 or 3-1/2” nail from a framing gun for blocking. No issue for non structural
3 inch deck screws are fine for blocking. But really a nail gun is what your after for deck framing
Generic wood screws and deck screws are not rated for framing. If an inspector sees them, the deck might well fail, even if they’re just used for blocking.
Does it make an actual difference? I honestly don’t know. In theory, the wood of the block is taking the stress and so the fastener is just to keep it from moving and hold it in place. However, pressure blocking can also, hypothetically, be subject to stresses which could maybe cause the screw to shear. All of this is built into the metallurgic composition of structurally rated fasteners and contributes to the statement that all fasteners in structural elements of the deck, including the framing, must be structurally rated.
At the end of the day though, everyone has to make up their own minds. I’m just offering best practices and what you’re supposed to and not supposed to do. Take that for what it’s worth.
FYI, IRC specifically states #10x3” deck screws for blocking as acceptable.
This! ^
It's tough to imagine a scenario where screws in blocking are subject to so much sheer force that they fail.
I’ve used deckmate 3” screws for 12 years and they pass every time.
Use nails for everything structural. Use screws for your deck boards.
You might need to wait until Home Depot opens Friday.
Simpson framing screws can be used anywhere you’d also use nails. EXCEPT IN THE JOIST HANGERS! Simpson makes specific screws for those too (love the Simpson monopoly) and they are often right next to the hangers in Home Depot.
The wood exterior screws are coated for corrosion resistance and can be used for any non-structural connection i.e. screwing down deck boards, top rails, blocking.
There are also a slew of other framing screws if you wanna price compare with Simpson. GRK makes good ones as well, but that wouldn’t solve your scheduling issue.
Biggest issue is that deck screws are more brittle and tend to break under bending loads whereas structural screws and nails will bend - important for structural safety.
Nails also outperform screws with shear and bending loads even for structural fasteners, but many folks prefer the ease of use for structural fasteners as a good enough solution.
Also deck screws they rely on organic coatings for corrosion protection whereas structural fasteners and nails are generally plated for corrosion prevention.
Simpson brackets should also only be used with their specifically listed fasteners, which can differ bracket to bracket to match the correct gauge, length, and material compatibility. Many times people don’t look at the actual instructions and assume incorrectly that because Simpson made the fastener that it must be compatible with any Simpson bracket.
Nails do not out-perform the equivalent shank-sized deck screw. Project Farms has proven that in his tests. Screws out-perform nails in every metric except time and cost. They are cheap and fast. That's why they are written into the codes. No one is framing with deck-screws, but if they did it would be a hell of a lot stronger than nails.
Actually, Project Farms proved that screws out perform nails in terms of pull-out strength. Their tests on sheer showed that nails are superior which is the whole point of this thread.
That's not true. The only test where the nail out-performed the screw was the ductility test, which was an exaggerated test that does not simulate real-world fastener stresses.
https://youtu.be/qmajKElnwfE?si=nXCdKVrgfTOqEfZO
In this Vancouver Carpenter video he demonstrates in a very simple way that nails have superior shear strength.
https://youtu.be/5-PlR8tf84c?si=FdiKnjJ6UBEpWVxu
Both the International Residential Code and International Building Code specify all of their fasteners in terms of nails, with the exception being screws specifically evaluated for structural use. In other words the screws that everyone in this thread are talking about being appropriate.
There are many errors in that video. Starting with mistaking ductility for shear strength. Also: hitting a fastener with a hammer is orders of magnitude beyond any force that a fastener will ever experience in an assembly. Lastly, when he gets around to doing the real-world testing (nailing vs screwing lumber to walls) he proves that screws are superior, both in their pull-out wiggle test and also their real-world shear-test.
You should watch that video again.
In the Project Farm video he concludes that screws perform better in the short term, but being brittle, fail more quickly with repeated motion, making them less durable under standing movement. @12:55
The test is exaggerated so he doesn't have to wait 5 years for some framing members to shift against each other repeatedly. It clearly shows that more ductile fasteners stand up to repeated movement better, which is also in line with plain common sense.
By exaggerating the test he exceeds the limits of the material and enters into the plastic state of the fastener. That's why it breaks. Screws would never be stressed into that state under normal conditions.
Shear vs pull out are completely different.
Yes, that's what I said.
Respectfully it doesn't matter what's on a YouTube video. The engineered and inspected buildings that are built every day throughout the USA use nails. Sure your theory could be true, but the reality is nails are used over screws in just about every framing and shear situation.
That's exactly what I was saying, sir. I'm glad that you agree.
Okay, well happy holidays 👍
Not in an assembly. They are related. Show me any lumber connection that requires shear without pull-out strength.
Watch the video and even in the most shear-loaded possible configuration, the screws still performed better than the nails.
Anyone who likes can click on the link and see that what you say about the video isn't true.
https://youtu.be/qmajKElnwfE?si=LJftRrwxSpZl63eY&t=551
There ya go, I even started it at the most shear-loaded test possible. Screws win.
I have an old army buddy who accidentally tested this. Poor guy was on “sick duty” for two weeks, and his wife wouldn’t even apologize, even though it was her fault… 😆
Confidently wrong.
OP is asking about blocking, Not about joist hangers….
https://preview.redd.it/oeaok5nwzc9g1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=f5d7ef4e01dc450a00f0fb50bf3634c41aecbf24
If it just a rim joist, standard deck screws are fine. Same for blocking. 3" deck screws are just fine to attach these as well. I really like the Simpson Framing Screws but they are not necessary for this application. However, I would be somewhat leery of "Amazon special" fastners. Especially with all of the issues that modern pressure treated wood has with fastners. They are more likely made with inferior steel and the coating may not be sufficient.
Lots of misinformation in this thread so far. The primary failure mode for rim joist connection is fastner withdrawl. As wood expands and contracts outdoors, nails tend to lose their holding power. Especially when driven into end grain. Nails like to back themselves out over time. Screws are far less likely to do that. There is also little load on a rim joist. It is mostly just glorified blocking in its structural purpose. Structurally, all it does is help keep the joists upright and prevents the ends from warping.
I generally tack the rim joist in place with my framing nailer and 10d ring shank nails. However, the final connection is made with joist hangers as these remove reliance on fastners into end grain.
No
If this is not a structurally rated screw then I would not use it in framing. When using Simpson anchors use what is approved by them which will be stubbies and SDS type fasteners. Deck rated screws are prone to snap. It has nothing to do with pullout value but the concern is sheer strength.
Use ring shank galvanized framing nails and joist hangers and joist hanger nails or screws. They are the only things that are code for what youre doing.
Use the Simpson Strong Tie screws for your joist hangers. They're right next to the joist hangers. Go figure. Never use a deck screw for any load.
Those screws are garbage. They're not certified to carry the weight or shear strength that the 16D nails or simpson structural screws are.
Life or death....use the right materials. Your schedule can wait.
... The second picture is literally Simpson structural screws
Ffs. You know I'm talking about the deck screws.
The second option is much better for joists, much harder wearing. Structural screws are stronger and less likely to snap, and likely have more waterproof protection. Structural screws all day baby.
If looking at the screw designs, what's the difference between the 2 that makes the Simpson better?
My guess is the steel. Less brittle.
It’s material engineering. You won’t see it unless you read the instructions. Seriously, you can do your blocking today. Framing must wait.
Only use galvanized nails of the type listed on the bracket. Get a palm pneumatic nailer, it is faster than screws. Joist hangers need two size nails. Blocking use whatever.
No.
No they can’t withstand downward force as well because they are designed to go on top into decking .
The joists are primarily responsible for carrying the load. At a 50 PSF design load the rim joist fastners are only responsible for 12.5 pounds of force, if you assume 24" joist spacing, even less if you do 16" or 12" joist spacing. Basically any fastner can handle 12.5 lbs of load. The rim joist, structurally, is little more than glorified blocking. Withdrawl is far more important for rim joist fastners then shear loads.
Yes but those first ones the heads would shear off
Its pretty hard to shear a head off a screw when driving it into end grain. But I would not be trusting chinese knockoff screws from Amazon for anything lol.