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To get a whole-protein cheese, you either buy abused-cow cheese, or you buy all sorts of ingredients (sometimes from different stores as in my case), then spend hours in prep, making, and letting it rest.

I don't know why you're concerned about the protein in cheese anyway - animal or non-animal cheese isn't like an amazing source of protein. It has it, but its not in any sort of amount that's significant. I don't think anyone really eats cheese for the protein - its typically other nutrients (or obviously in most cases for taste).

Eggs are another great (and sad) example.

idk Tofu scramble has enough protein that I don't see it being an issue.

he only cheese is soy-free, just a block of fat. 

I guess I don't understand - like... animal cheese is also basically just a block of fat.

The only burgers are made of dozen ingredients, with non of these ingredients giving whole protein.

What do you mean whole protein? Because the idea of complete and incomplete proteins has been outdated for awhile now. Can you give an example of this product? Because there's tons of types of veggie burgers, made out of lots of different ingredients and amounts of ingredients.

Sorry, I dont want to calculate how many incomplete protein I get daily from grains and how many from legumes, I dont even like grains and legumes.

Luckily you don't need to - by eating enough calories and hitting your protein amounts you're basically guaranteed to get all your amino acids. You would have to eat some strange like..mono-diet or fruit-based diet to make this difficult.

That's a main issue that vegans choose to ignore and like any other problems in life, if we ignore it we won't solve it.

I guess I don't see these as issues, because you seem to consider sources of nutrients from foods to be atypical, and you are worried about complete proteins when that isn't an actual concern.

Whole protein…

Firstly, just drink a soy smoothy if your doctor says you’re going to die somehow without this “lack of whole protein” thing you keep obsessing over. 

Second, you’d sooner die of literal starvation than a lack of protein. 

Third, like most vegans and normal people, no one serious is breaking down their intakes of amino acids daily, my grandfather lived on a small farm to the age of 92 eating mostly veggies as a single family run potato farmer primarily, virtually never had a fish in his life, and just in the same way he didn’t die from lack of protein, he didn’t die from lack of omega 3’s since he didn’t eat nuts either. Think about it, if you literally eat nothing, first goes the carbs, then the fats, then your muscles. So no one is dying of lack of protein, sorry the entire food industry has been on a protein push for the last few years, but just ignore it.

Fourth, old people should be dying of lack of protein left and right, since in their old age they’re always told to stop eating things like eggs or fatty foods. Likewise with anyone with late stage heart disease. When was the last time you heard someone die from lack of protein that wasn’t in the wilderness?

Finally, when was the last time you walked into a doctor’s office and they tell you: “hey how’s it going, you been good? How’s your protein levels been lately?”  Yeah, me neither for good reason.

If you have the capacity and capability to be typing online like Reddit, you almost certainly fall within a first world category of people. You are the last person that should be decrying the difficulties of living as a vegan compared to Omni. Especially since one of your points is “products made to the same price as Omni foods”, if they’re the same price, the struggle should be equal in that case. 

Either way, it’s not that hard for anyone with a shred of honestly and any serious differences are simply preference based particulars driving some core complaint due to either poor supermarket choices, or unrealistic expectations of substitutes. 

Now if you wanted to say being vegan is harder as a kid living with parents who are devout carnists for some reason. That would be a talking point with merit. But being vegan is tough due to lack of egg protein and whole cheese protein? That’s just eye-roll worthy on face value. 

It is harder to be vegan than not, just like it's generally harder to be ethical in other ways than it is to not. But you're also talking about going vegan without making a single change to what you eat and finding a 1-1 replacement for common non-vegan foods.

At some point we all need to accept that changes for the collective good require some level of personal sacrifice, and many, many people don't want to do that. There simply aren't accessible vegan options for every single non-vegan thing, and that's just how it is right now. That doesn't negate the fact that it is quite easy for many, many people to go vegan without comprising on health.

Protein is a complete non-issue if you eat a variety of whole foods. It's really not that difficult.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Proportions-of-amino-acids-in-selected-foods-across-food-groups-Amino-acids-are-grouped_fig1_331560091

Why not just avoid the puny imitations of animal products? They're just generally not as good as the real deal, i doubt they'll be anytime soon. I think it's better to eat real vegan foods like beans, nuts, seeds, grains, etc, etc.

And if you're having trouble calculating the nutrition, you can just use nutrition calculators. Super easy. https://www.nutritionvalue.org/nutritioncalculator.php is the one i use constantly, it takes data from the US department of agriculture. Works fine for me.

Fortunately, you don't have to calculate "incomplete protein" or anything like that. Just eat a variety of foods with a reasonable calorie goal. I've been vegan for almost twenty years and on not a single day of it have I bothered with calculating separate protein from legumes or grains.

I suspect people aren't objecting to you saying veganism can be more challenging than being non-vegan (it can be), but from you making absurd claims like that we have to calculate incomplete proteins or find recipes for "whole protein cheese." We don't. So focus on the actual challenges and don't make shit up. 

Sure, being an omnivore is a default so being omni is easier.

But I’d disagree that being vegan is always harder because that’s very location dependent.

I live in the countryside in the UK and even here the shops store almost every vegan product I may want (tofu, veggies, vegan burgers etc). Anything else I can order online and get it delivered no bother at all. Of course, that experience may differ in other countries.

When it comes to eggs, I don’t really understand where you’re coming from. Eggs aren’t even necessary for baking and can be very easily substituted with eg soy yoghurt, flax seeds, applesauce etc depending on a recipe. Scrambled tofu is a good scrambled egg substitute and very easy to make. Tofoo make one straight out of the packet.

Again, not sure where you are but there are vegan cheese companies out there which - much like dairy creameries - would do the job for you. Kinda cheese is one UK based example.

I don’t think you need to worry about plant protein being incomplete and missing out on anything. Plants still have all the amino acids, with some variations when it comes to proportions. Eating mainly whole foods would get you all you need; and there are eg lentil based pastas which taste just like wheat pasta but have way more protein which you may want to try. Maybe speak to a plant based dietician if you’re worried?

I do agree that in places where plant-based eating hasn't substantially influenced the culture, veganism is harder. It's a combination of easy and nutritious meals not being as available, as well as a general lack of understanding in how to plan a properly balanced plant-based diet.

Vegans shouldn't be dismissive of this. They should work to make doing the right thing easier for everyone. This can take many forms. One could share nutritious meals with others. You could post recipes online. You could point out nutritional holes in others' recipes. Or you can just participate in any plant-based community (or vote with your wallet I guess).

I don't think it works well to trivialize how hard it may be to change one's habits and rely purely on moral arguments to convince people.

This link is on a different topic, but the right attitude. People will be more inclined to do the "right" thing if the frictions for changing are reduced: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6257018

The only thing hard about being vegan is all the fucking non-vegans.

I think it's pretty self evident that it's harder to eat a more restricted diet than a less restricted diet. Like a vegan diet is encapsulated within a non vegan diet - nobody is forcing anyone to eat eggs. I do think you're making it way harder than it needs to be though.

Most people are way too concerned about getting enough protein in America.  Chances are if you're eating enough you're getting enough protein.  Not every meal has to have a chunk of protein as the center,but even then you can just let the cheese be a tasty addition. 

When I was younger I used to bike for hours and be able to run for hours too.  I ate beans and tofu and protein, but I wasn't obsessed with it.  It's not like I had to eat a vegan bean chili every night or something.  Just eat a balanced diet and you'll be fine.  

Eating vegan is as hard or as easy as you want it to be.  Sure there are sacrifices with convenience or going out with friends.  But you can do things to make it work for you.  Cook at home more, it's very easy to eat cheap and fulfilling and have a good variety.  Most omnivores eat the exact same thing almost every day.  There's a million different plants, and fungi to choose from.  

Eggs is difficult, but even then you can make your own with mung beans.  You can literally make anything into a vegan version and make it tastes good.  There's nothing in meat you can't replicate with plants or something.  

The whole incomplete protein thing is a myth and it's outdated nutritional advice.  

I don't know why people are still worried about protein. It's not an issue if you eat a healthy and varied plant-based diet. You just can't expect a plant-based diet to offer the exact same products and flavors as an omni diet. If you go into it with that mindset, you will fail.

is that its much harder to be vegan than omnivore.

Not at all. Changing is hard, being is easy

Sorry, I dont want to calculate how many incomplete protein I get daily from grains and how many from legumes, I dont even like grains and legumes.

Why would you?

That's a main issue that vegans choose to ignore and like any other problems in life, if we ignore it we won't solve it.

People are working on improving the things you are talking about. But they are not necessary for being vegan. It might make it easier for some people to transition, sure. But they are not really necessary.

1- Being vegan is hard for some people but if they stick with it then being vegan just gets easier and easier. Similar to other habit changes, the initial change is the hardest part. Then there are some struggles here and then with maintenance but it just gets easier and easier. It might help to reframe your thoughts about this as less about "this is hard" and more about "this will get easier."

2- The idea that people need to eat "complete protein" at every meal is really a myth. You do not need to worry about it. But if you're super concerned, then aim for tofu and other soy products. There's a reason tofu has been around for thousands of years and why it's a staple in multiple cultures. Embrace tofu. There are thousands of ways to eat soybeans. (It sounds like you're not avoiding soy so embrace it.)

3- I'm getting the feeling maybe you're currently vegetarian since you're discussing cheese and eggs rather than chicken and fish. That, and you are saying you believe in veganism. So while you getting ready to change your diet to vegan, start by changing your wardrobe and some other habits to vegan. Go leather-free and fur-free. Buy only vegan toiletries and household items. Use up what you have but buy vegan stuff from now on. Convert the areas of your life that are easier to convert.

4- Go part-time vegan to test out recipes and restaurants. You set the goal, just make sure it includes more vegan meals than you're currently eating. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, just transition at your own pace. This will help make everything easier by reducing the stress and allowing you to really find more vegan options that you truly like and that fit your nutritional needs rather than feeling desperate and hungry while you figure things out.

Why do you want a "complete source of protein"? There is no such a thing as an "incomplete protein" (except for gello perhaps) and the body stores the aminos in the bloodstream (it then combines them; if you eat a variety of sources you are fine). Also, yes, being vegan is harder than omnivore (by definition they have more options)

You can buy plant based whey protein powder. It's molecular identical. I use it in my smoothies.

The researcher who popularized the idea of "complete protein" admitted it was all erroneous after further work:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining#Criticism

In 1971 I stressed protein complementarity because I assumed that the only way to get enough protein ... was to create a protein as usable by the body as animal protein. In combating the myth that meat is the only way to get high-quality protein, I reinforced another myth. I gave the impression that in order to get enough protein without meat, considerable care was needed in choosing foods. Actually, it is much easier than I thought.

"With three important exceptions, there is little danger of protein deficiency in a plant food diet. The exceptions are diets very heavily dependent on [1] fruit or on [2] some tubers, such as sweet potatoes or cassava, or on [3] junk food (refined flours, sugars, and fat). Fortunately, relatively few people in the world try to survive on diets in which these foods are virtually the sole source of calories. In all other diets, if people are getting enough calories, they are virtually certain of getting enough protein.

You think you're being attacked? Check out the violence that goes on in slaughterhouses and you'd realize what being attacked means. Pretty sure people attack vegans every day as if it's a joke. "My mom snuck in meat in my meal" seems to be a common post I see. Like can I sneak in a human finger in your food and laugh about it? People question me all the time then forget they asked later - "where do you get your protein?!" the same place your food gets its protein. "You must be deficient in something" yeah - biological diseases.

It gets easier the more people do it. More options open up, become cheaper while the price of meat goes up. Just like everything else, making the tough choices now sucks, but you get used to it and are rewarded later one way or another.

I was convinced by all the mock meats but eventually leaned into more whole foods. I was going to BK to get impossible burgers earlier on, now I'm cooking more. You say you don't cook but cook eggs - pretty easy to crumble up some tofu and throw in some seasoning - turmeric and black salt. You'd also enjoy that it tastes very similar and packs protein too.

If you surround yourself with supportive community (which, of course, requires supporting other vegans yourself) then it is much, much easier.

And I truly believe that the reason for many compassionate non-vegans who have a little bit of brain, is that its much harder to be vegan than omnivore.

It's harder to eat like an non-Vegan as a Vegan... for almost everyone it's very easy to just eat plant based though.

The easiest example, one of many. To get a whole-protein cheese

Which is completely unnecessary. Just get protein elsewhere if you're worried.

Sorry, I dont want to calculate how many incomplete protein I get daily from grains and how many from legumes, I dont even like grains and legumes.

How much time do you think people spend calculating whole protein stats?

That's a main issue that vegans choose to ignore and like any other problems in life, if we ignore it we won't solve it.

Yeah, that's the real issue! A lack of "whole-protein" cheese... If only we had whole-protein cheese the world would suddenly all go Vegan... I'm really hoping this is AI...

Tbh I don’t think the aspects of veganism you’re talking about are really that hard. It might seem daunting initially but you get the hang of it eventually.

What can actually be quite challenging is eating out at restaurants with friends / relatives or at social gatherings in other people’s houses. In these situations you get less control over what to eat and may have little to no options depending on where you live and how accommodating your friends / relatives are. I have been fortunate enough to be spared of such experiences most of the time, but it can be quite awkward and frustrating when it happens.

Apart from this, dealing with the fact that 99% of people you know are actively and wilfully contributing to horrific animal violence and cruelty is also something that doesn’t fully go away but can only be ignored to some extent.

But shopping for ingredients isn’t that inconvenient or challenging in my opinion — it’s just what may seem the most frustrating to newbie vegans.

Rice & beans = complete protein. Easiest, cheapest thing there is. I’m not vegan but even I know that lol

The 'protein combining' math you are stressing about is mostly a myth. You don't need to pair grains and legumes at every single meal to get a 'whole protein.' Your body maintains an amino acid pool and balances it out over the day.

That said, the reason it feels hard for you is specifically because you said you 'don't like grains and legumes.' Those are the nutritional staples. If you try to live entirely on processed cheese substitutes (which are usually just coconut oil) rather than eating tofu, seitan, or lentils, it is going to feel difficult and unsatisfying.

Im sorry you’ve been attacked. I feel like this view is pretty logical and true. After all the majority of the population is omnivorous, any time an ideology is in minority it should be safe to reason that it will be more difficult and have unique challenges to some degree. Even if veganism is totally possible the world is set up for people with an omnivorous diet. So maybe an easier way to approach it is not that veganism is hard but being an omnivore is very very easy.

Who is asking you to calculate "incomplete proteins"? Eating should be fun, it's one of the few pleasures in life. It kind of sounds like you have an eating disorder, and i'm not throwing this around. I was underweight and suffered for a few years. I am really sorry you feel like you are being attacked, maybe you can take a break for a while, although with the holidays, i think many are at our whit's end.

Do you have examples of being attacked you can reference?

It's subjective, but I doubt anyone is suggesting it's easier to change compared to staying the same.

However if you bring up things such as concerns about whole or complete proteins then sure maybe someone might give you grief as it's being thoroughly debunked from the mainstream like 10 years ago

It's not a concern if you have access to multiple forms of protein and mix foods. It's really not that hard as you seem to think it is in this post.

Let's start with how much protein do you even think you need to be healthy?

Well, it is just an empirical fact that it is harder to be a vegan since many food items have ingredients that people are unaware are animal by-products. Not sure how that is controversial.

That doesn't change how easy it is to inform yourself. It is a couple of google searches and you have most of the information you will need. It is easy to learn.

Is this from your own personal experience or just some problem you've imagined so you don't have to try to be vegan?

Vegan cheese can be made from sources other than soy, often it is made with nuts, so I'm not sure what vegan cheeses you have actually looked it. They can be made in your own home as well if you don't like the options at the grocery store.

What examples of veggie burgers have you looked at?

"Sorry, I dont want to calculate how many incomplete protein I get daily from grains and how many from legumes, I dont even like grains and legumes."

So animals have to die because you think you have to calculate protein but you are too lazy to do it? Wow.

Uhh, you're going to have to learn to cook if you want to be vegan. There's no avoiding that. Cooking has a learning curve, but after that, you can meal prep. As for protein, you can get a vegan protein powder and call it a day. It's not like burgers, cheeses, and sausages are whole foods.

More people will make more and more delicious vegan food readily avaliable. I've seen it within a few years. When we put ourselves into something, we solve everything, including flavor. It just has to be our problem (it hurts me that we hurt them) to get to solve it.

It is easier, the discussions that should happen are about how much easier and whether that justifies various eating foods.

The claim “it’s easier to cook when you have access to all ingredients vs 90% of ingredients” seems trivially true.

It is harder. And that is the reason there aren't very many old vegans. By far, the great majority of vegans opt back into an omnivore diet over time.

The good news for animal welfare is they tend to choose meat and diary products from non-abused sources, which actively boosts that sector of the market. So you could argue that in a capitalist market, they do more for animal welfare than vegans do?

I disagree that its much harder. So yes ill attack opinions that I disagree with.

If you eat a varied diet, you won't need to do protein completeness calculations. And even dairy cheese is a pretty bad source of protein as most of the calories come from fast for many cheeses so finding a vegan alternative is very low priority from a protein completeness point of view.

Even the lowest protein foods like potatoes provide enough protein for human needs. Nutrition “standards” were created by people who believe it’s normal to eat animal products

A diet without restrictions is trivially easier than eating a diet with restrictions.

It’s harder to be the animals. Veganism is typically hard for individuals that don’t have the victims in mind.

Carnist here,

I sympathize with you. Logically, anything that's restrictive will be tougher. Not just with diet but anything.

This is the community you belong to though. If you ever decide to return to carnism, we will welcome you with open arms.