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You probably want /r/askVegans, this sub is for debates so you might get some "debate" style responses.

why honey isn't vegan

It's not the worst thing in the world, but it's completely unnecessary and has a number of issues.

First is just the fact of consent and exploitation. Veganism doesn't believe in treating animals like "things" but instead treating them as sentient being

Also there's the issue that there are dangers involved, first is cracking the hive, required for removing ht honey in almost all setups, opens the hive to parasites, disease, and more. Closing the hives often result in crushed bees unless everyone involved is super careful. (edit: Oh an removing half their honey leaves them at risk of problems if it's a really bad winter, and filling it with corn syrup does not have the same beneficial properties)

Then there's the fact that most hives are filled with European Honey bees, outside of Europe, these are invasive and can out compete many local bees which contributes to local bee death which is already a massive problem.

Lastly is the issue of human greed and laziness/selfishness. Anytime there's a profit motive, lots of humans do not seem reliable or capable of controlling their behaviour, so putting the lives of others into their hands, doesn't seem great.

I would rather come up with a new dish than try to make Ris A la Malt...or tiramisu vegan.

I prefer to recreate dishes i loved growing up, the other day I made a Vegan Tiramisu that was amazing. But if either new dishes, or reimagining old, delicious food is delicious food :)

Veganism probhits any animal exploitation to the extent possible and practical. The bees didn't make the honey for you - they made it for themselves - so it is definitionally not vegan.

Beyond that, the honey that is taken from the bees is typically replaced with less nutritious sugar water, which does harm the hive. When queens get older and the hive production goes down the queens are killed and replaced, which is super not cool.

I'd agree that some things are simply not good "veganized" so we simply don't eat those things anymore. Maximizing the pleasure from what I eat is not worth animal suffering.

they clip the wings of the Queen bee to stop her flying off. You can Google and see what they do to the bees and how it is cruel.

What I would suggest is not letting this stop you becoming a near-vegan. If you want to be a 'vegan who eats honey' then that is cool, you will probably consume less than a jar of honey a year and one day you'll google it and see what they do to the bees and make an informed choice. In the mean-time, you won't have eaten loads of pork.

Not that I know you, I dunno what your diet is like

Anyway, honey still involves managing and exploiting bees for human ends. Bees are bred, moved, stressed, and their food stores are taken and replaced. Honey can have the queens clipped or killed and the hives culled; the bees are a commodity. I've never even seen a jar of honey that marketed itself as giving a shit about the bees. We consider the exploitative nature of the beekeeper relationship. But 'are vegans really right about honey' shouldn't be a roadblock to thinking about animal welfare in your purchasing decisions.

It's not easy for bees to just move a hive.

Think about an abusive relationship. Why doesn't the victim just leave? Because It's very difficult to move away. Oftentimes the abuser is the main provider of resources.

Bees are kept in a very similar type of abusive relationship. Honey collection is very taxing to the hive, and will almost always kill a few bees, no matter how careful the farmer is. The queen may even have her wings clipped in order to prevent movement

Queens are also bred, like any other 'livestock.' Males are killed and have their sperm extracted, which is then used to artificially inseminate the queen. Due to their small size, they often get accidentally impaled to death in the process.

but overall veganism is about not seeing animals as things to be used, and instead as autonomous individuals. It's not just about not consuming animal-products.

I have no clue how to make vegan pastry, or any pastry for that matter. Vegan chefs have been on this though and do a very good job I'd say.

E.g. Land&Monkeys is a pastry shop chain, mostly in Paris. Gauthier in Soho London is a French trained chef who includes vegan pastry, and even most coffeeshop chain almond croissants are vegan too in London.

Vegan butter, vegan cream, vegan egg replacement, they all exist.

a teaspoon of honey is the life’s work of 12 bees.

many people will say that bees don’t care when humans take honey and will actually make extra just for us. however that’s messed up when you think about it, it’s like they are making extra to appease us to not take the honey they live off of.

the honey may not be a direct “animal product” (which i think it actually does have their saliva in it) but regardless it is exploitation of labor

Here's the argument.

P1: Veganism rejects the commodity status of animals/their exploitation for human ends.

P2: Honey comes from animals (bees) that are utilized as commodities/exploited for resources they produce.

C: Therefore, veganism rejects honey.

although I think certain things should not be attempted to make vegan

I thought this is a post about honey? What is this really about?

Just chiming in to say I’ve had vegan rice porridge and tooonnnss of vegan tiramisu and it was all amazingly delicious. I’ve always appreciated the bakeries and patisseries that go out of their way to make environmentally friendly foods. No reason not to, really.

Bees are sentient intelligent animals that deserve to live free of exploitation and commodification. Honey is THEIR food, it’s not ours to take.

My educational resources doc has some sources on this for ethics and environmental issues, see page 7 for 2 vids on ethics and page 31-33 for environmental issues starting with “State of the World’s Plants and Fungi”: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ot4yc8145yqGsWWXylXMoOW6zIud6acVqK8FtE-cfVc/edit

Honey bees are typically invasive species and compete with and spread illnesses to natural pollinators. Humans only care about "protecting the bees" because they want their honey. If we really cared about natural pollinators, honey bees would not be so prevalent.

My friend keeps bees. He's not a vegan and neither am I. I asked him about beekeeping since I'm hoping to get into it myself. 

My conclusion is that beekeeping done by people like him is about as vegan as the eggs from my backyard flock. Which is to say, not vegan but far less exploitative than industrial farming. 

The animals are pretty happy to be there and we protect them from threats that could wipe them out in the wild. Individual vegans may be more or less open to consuming these eggs and honey depending on their personal beliefs and needs.

However, my beekeeping friend did say that industrial beekeeping is not good to the bees. So most honey you can buy will have the same exploitation issues as other factory farmed products.

Practically speaking, I think it's not a huge debate in vegan circles because plant-based syrups are easy to get and most vegans are going to be satisfied with those.

Earthling Ed - Why don’t vegans eat honey?

I think if a chef can’t adopt to the needs of their variety of customers then they are not that great of a chef. :) Hope this helps.

For me, honey is not something I buy or eat because it belongs to the bees. They made it and they didn’t make it for me, and I don’t just take things that aren’t mine.

There is also a biodiversity issue because I live in Scandinavia where wild honeybees don’t exist. All the honeybees here are domestic animals who compete with wild pollinators for what little bee food nature can provide.

Finally, it’s completely unnecessary. There is a massive problem with fake honey being passed off as real. With mass market honey, proving it’s fake is quite difficult because it’s basically just sugar. So much so that a recent award planned in Copenhagen for the best honey was cancelled because the organizers were worried they would accidentally award it to a fake product. This should tell you that people generally can’t tell the difference between honey and pollen infused sirups. So why bother bees and risk wiping out wild pollinators?

A bee keeper’s perspective on authenticating honey: https://justbeehoney.co.uk/blogs/just-bee-honey-blog/what-is-fake-honey-and-how-to-spot-it?srsltid=AfmBOorAWxWiqj22CkY3m4MCpTv9NA1-lODShd0Ob7djTzmXXk4MFRbW

Also, the idea that bees somehow see bee keepers as their protectors is pretty funny. They don’t leave because bee keepers damage the wings of the queen so she can’t fly away and then the others stay too. When this isn’t done, bees sometimes do leave, just like other livestock occasionally will.

What are you trying to debate here? If this is a question, I'd recommend r/askvegans (but do a search, there's dozens and dozens of previous posts from people who don't understand why vegans don't eat honey).

The AI summary below of beegan is very helpful and informative.

It aligns well with the facts about bee keepers and symbiosis as well as environmental harm caused by other sweeteners especially cane sugar and agave.

“A Beegan is someone who follows a mostly plant-based diet (like a vegan) but makes an exception for honey and other bee products, viewing bees as partners rather than exploited resources, often motivated by environmental concerns or a desire to support bee health, though some debate this as it diverges from strict veganism's exclusion of all animal-derived items.

Key Characteristics of Beeganism: Plant-Based Foundation: Like vegans, Beegans avoid meat, dairy, eggs, and other animal products.

Honey Inclusion: They consume honey, beeswax, and potentially other bee-derived substances.”

Id like to add that bee keeping (as well as any animal agriculture) destroys ecological balance by directly favoring a few exploitable species and reducing biodiversity. Honey bees are NOT the bees that need saving and they are an introduced species to many places they are farmed in today. These bees outcompete native bee species for resources and are not as effective pollinators of many struggling native plant species as well. I don’t know if other vegans feel the same way but ecological responsibility is a key part of my vegan worldview and I believe it’s a crucial component of the goal to reduce harm and exploitation overall

I'm a beekeeper. The idea that bees just leave if their conditions aren't good isn't entirely true. They might abscond from a poorly maintained hive. But it's also just as likely they'll get sick and die. Further it is damn near impossible to accomplish any of the jobs a beekeeper preforms without squishing a few bees. So bees absolutely suffer as a direct result of the beekeeper's labor. However, kept bee colonies have much better long term survival odds than feral or wild colonies. So arguably the lives of kept bees are safer and healthier than feral bees.

Simple, watch Earthling Ed's video that goes into the actual logistics of the beekeeping industry, and decide for yourself how harmful that seems.

Why do humans feel the need to benefit from honey to care appropriately for bees? If they have to directly benefit humans in order to deserve undisturbed space on Earth (they don't) why isn't the pollinating of our food supply enough? Consider why people feel the need to get a direct product from bees to pay for their stewardship. Then extend that thought to stewardship of all land and animals.

The issue is bee exploitation, but it's something that has always confused me. I think bees are far more exploited and harmed in the production of foods like almonds and avocados than in the production of honey. Also, beekeepers have a vested interest in ensuring healthy bee populations.

Given all the challenges bees face, and their importance in our ecosystem, I would expect a vegan to want to support responsible beekeepers and boycott foods like almonds and avocados instead.

Bees primarily make honey as a long-lasting, high energy food source to survive the winter & periods of scarcity, when flowers aren't blooming, providing fuel for flight & hive warmth, & nourishment for raising young. It's pretty clear that their hard work gathering nectar is for them, not us.

Honey is still a bee's food, not ours. Aside from dying due to their short lives, bees can be crushed in the bee houses when the honey is harvested. It's another exploitation of animals. If consuming honey is accepted, then why not cow, goat or sheep's milk? Where would the cut off for hypocrisy be? Maple syrup & agave syrup can be substituted. It's not that hard, people.

First thing that comes to mind: “I asked the people that take honey from bees if taking honey from bees is okay” um. What types of answers did you expect beyond “yeah, it’s totally okay! :)”?

7.5 billion animals deaths during a single harvest.

The 99% of the planet that isn’t proclaiming self righteousness accept the fact that death happens.

Honey is not a vegan because it comes from an animal. Well, to get technical. half from an animal (bee) and half from flowers. Lol!

Although I'm not sure the ratio/frequency, routine "Audits" to test for diseases and such calls for killing a decent chunk of bees

It's common practice for beekeepers to mutilate queens to hold the colony hostage. Everyone deserves respect, freedom, and the fruits of their own labor.

I’ve had delicious vegan tiramisu. The best was a vegan matcha tiramisu in Amsterdam.

I’ll say it again… you are responsible for as many animal deaths as I am ..

Honey

You don't even know me......

You could just search this sub. This question is asked all the time.

Omg I love vegan tiramisu more than life itself.