Ok, so what's vegan's takes on self sufficiency and growing your own food?
Personally I've been vegan around 20 years and now I'm more gravitating towards self sufficiency because I don't believe the global supply chains behind supermarkets are going to last.
So, farming my food. I've got some land in an area that has a snail infestation straight from hell. What would be your vegan way of navigating hordes of slimy slugs that eat every bit of salad you plant?
What about bigger creatures in the area, such as wild boar and deer? Or mid sized like rats and mice?
I've been contemplating on compromising on veganism and getting ducks (which eat snails) and a cat (for the mice).
Can you give me reasoning why killing snails myself would be different, or ways to avoid killing them? Or what are the ethical problems of keeping ducks provided killing them for food isn't a part of the picture?
As for cats, every house around mine already has one so any effect on wildlife is minimal. Again, viable practical solutions avoiding killing mice or keeping a cat are welcome, as are points about ethical problems of keeping a cat.
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Getting ducks to kill your snails isnt any different than killing the snails yourself, although now you have ducks to look after, and if you bought them off of a breeder/farm you're giving money to people exploiting ducks for money. Id use physical barriers and deterents to keep slugs away, and just grow more food
Have you had success with physical barriers in growing enough food for self sufficiency? Can you post photos of your farm?
I don't have an intense slug problem but it's seemed to work pretty well for my purposes! Not at the scale of self-sufficiency though
How dare you not let the slugs eat your crops, don't you know they'll starve without food? How unvegan of you.
You forgot the /s homie
I know, I am ashamed xD
You do realize that these issues happen on the farms that grow your commercially available food, too- right? That the snails and rats are being killed in the name of product going to market?
This is obvious to me. I try to be vegan but more important is to live with truth. Therefore if there's killing involved, I'll rather face it head on.
Similarly, I can respect my hunter friend but not people who buy meat from supermarket freezer.
Animals aren't tools for you to own and solve your problems. If you want to produce your own food, that's fine, but don't exploit someone else in the process.
I'm welcoming any ideas and alternatives.
Buying food from the supermarket just has someone else do the farming and thus killing for you.
For me, something even more important than being vegan is being with the truth. And if producing my food involves killing (as it does for plant based food as well), I'll rather face the death I cause directly instead of having it hidden behind the neat shelves and bright lights of the supermarket.
Did you even read what I wrote? I have no problem with you protecting your crops from animals, if necessarywith deadly force. I have a problem with you using other animals as a tool to do so.
Okay....so then what's your solution?
How about not creating the problem in the first place by simply going to a grocery store?
What lol? Are you suggesting that farms don't have any pest control? Do you think 0 animals die during planting and harvesting???
You somehow think industrially farmed vegetables which are then processed and shipped somehow will kill less animals than this dude with his own garden in the back???
Be self righteous on Reddit and secretly eat some McDoubles when drunk
How is it exploiting a duck giving it a safe place to stay and lots of food? He's not forcing the ducks to do anything. You're being ridiculous. Next you'll be telling him to just drink water and not eat plants. What do you manage to eat with such beliefs?
Are you being intentionally obtuse? It's exploitation because they are using the animals as tools.
Reality is that all farming - commercial or otherwise - involves pest control. There is no way to grow food crops without it.
I see a difference between killing animals for food vs protecting your food from animals.
Can you elaborate on that distinction? Seems to me that either way you're commodifying the animal's life by valuing it less than that of possessions
Maintaining one's food source is self-defense, it's necessary for our survival.
All animals have to eat something, that doesn't inherently make all consumption 'commodification'.
An important thing to remember is that veganism allows for what is possible and practicable - It's not practicable to starve.
So then why not eat the animal if you're already killing it? Seems to me that it would reduce overall animal deaths given you wouldn't need as many crops
I just don't see why it's moral to kill something for my own convenience, specifically for the purpose of eating, but then it becomes immoral if part of what you're eating is the animal itself
They're not ours to eat, or to do what we will with. It's a creature, not food. We don't take a bite out of grandma when she croaks, right?
And who said anything about killing for convenience? We're talking about protecting food sources necessary for survival. (I'm also a proponent for developing additional/better non-lethal preventative measures, I'm not here just being cool with killing animals for Ss&Gs.)
It's in my will that I want to be barbecued and processed when I die, Ingrid Newkirk style
I did. What problems can't be solved non-lethally?
if you do not kill slugs you simply will not have any food to eat. they will eat everything as soon as it sprouts and not even give it a chance to grow big. if you were to naively simply grow in a bigger area, you'd just make the problem worse for yourself next year, as well as run out of space very quickly when trying to feed everyone.
Hence why here in my country we have to eat fish meat and dairy. Its our main food source. Without it we would literally starve to death in a crisis situation. Hence why a vegan food production would be a total disaster.
Out of curiosity, what country is that?
Norway.
Girl don't you live in Norway. What are you talking about
Food production.
First world westerner from top richest country in the world cannot afford to import lentils 😢
When a crisis hit where imports slow down or stop all together then lentils can't help us. Besides, why would I support Canadian farmers rather than our own? I genuinely cant think of a single good reason. And one of many reasons why supporting our farmers is crusial is that we might have a major crisis lurking just around the corner.
"Are we heading for World War Three?" https://theweek.com/92967/are-we-heading-towards-world-war-3
"Europe is preparing for possible war with Russia, without the US" https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-04-04/how-europe-nato-countries-are-preparing-for-war-with-russia/105116526
"Europe preparing for war as Ukraine conflict looms large, report finds Global Peace Index finds Europe’s military spending is rising amid fears the war in Ukraine will expand." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/11/europe-preparing-for-war-as-ukraine-conflict-looms-large-report-finds
I said it once and I will say it again: Pasture-fed livestock won't save Norway in a crisis and you're delusional for believing that it will. Most "pasture-fed" animals still rely on silage or imported animal feed. Or can you provide me credible sources proving that Norway can supply a sufficient amount of livestock with a sufficient amount of animal feed?
There is a reason why meat is rare and horribly expensive in war times. The consumption of animal products only increases with wealth.
So please, Helen. Spare us with this insane take. It's ridiculous. Norway and all the other countries importing a huge chunk of their plant-based foods are fucked in times of war. Livestock or not.
In a crisis situation we would have to rely more on sheep meat, wild fish and eggs, and less on dairy, beef and pork. There would not be enough grains for bread, so a lot of bread would have to be swapped with potatoes. We would however be able to cover both calories and nutrients, but our diet would have to look very different to what it looks like currently while the crisis lasts.
During WW2 a lot of Norwegian started with backyard rabbits. A huge advantage is that they can live on nothing but grass and wild plants (weeds, leaves etc) in the warmer months and hay in winter. Backyard chickens were also popular as they can eat your food waste. Many also, even in the middle of cities, raised pigs in their backyard. Food waste from one family might not be enough so several families usually went together to raise a pig and then they shared to meat when it was slaughtered. Many of course also caught their own fish. Most Norwegians live around the coast, and owning a boat was as common back then as it is today. In this way no Norwegians starved to death during WW2. Most actually came out of the war with better health, mostly due to the fact that no one had access to much sugar, alcohol or tobacco during the war. The Netherlands were not so lucky and sadly 20,000 people died of starvation towards the end of the war.
What's your take on getting ducks to help? I'm feeling pretty strongly against spraying my crops.
I heard snails can also be caught with traps with beer.
If you are getting the ducks from a farm or breeder, it’s probably a bit of an issue. Breeders are universally terrible.
If you are somehow able to find some rescue ducks and just let them live free on your land it’s less of an issue for me. If you released those ducks into the wild they’d be doing the same thing as they are doing on your land. It might be “technically” exploitation, but it is enough of a grey area that I’d personally not be concerned.
Trap/release and deterrents are obviously the superior solution, but they may not be a viable option.
Reality is that death is a part of life and it is impossible for you to live and nothing else to die because of it. Our goal is to reduce suffering as much as practical, which can’t possibly be 100%. Do your best to minimize suffering, death and exploitation and be respectful of the animals that do have to die for your crops.
Rescue ducks aka stolen ducks in another moral framework ;)
Which isn't saying I'm against the idea.
For snails manual removal combined with prevention has worked quite well for me. Literally just picking them up (at night) and moving them (…theres a local park a couple minutes walk with lots of invasive plant species, I put them there).
I assume I’d use a similar approach for slugs.
Are wild boar and deer likely to be an issue to you? We don't get them here. For the closest equivalents, people use fences (with mixed success)
Rats and mice - I let them be if they’re outside and far away. I do a fair bit to stop them coming inside. I did use a trap once, but I would 10/10 advocate for prevention (vegan or not, a trap won’t fix the root cause). They haven't gone for or near the food/fruit/vegetables in my garden yet. No idea why (it happens to have some of the smells rats don’t like, but… this wasn't particularly intentional. I assume there's a better food source somewhere else. We see them along the fence line every now and then).
Some other bugs you can get away with pruning and manual removal (and it’s recommended). I have used Neem oil on some very destructive bug infestations - so not vegan. A duck wouldn't have helped though, we already had birds coming in and eating them like crazy haha.
TL;DR: for your current snail problem, I’d be prioritising manual removal and prevention.
I've had a massive slug problem this year and manual removal did effectively nothing. I picked buckets worth of them but there were simply so many that even with daily picking they destroyed everything to the point where the plants they went after didn't make it.
Sorry to hear about your plants! What prevention/protective measures did you use for your plants in combination with manual removal?
If you are killing the snails, just eat them. That would reduce the amount of food you need to grow and the amount of snails you need to kill. That's the vegan way.
Do not eat slugs without knowing exactly what kind they are. People have become permanently paralysed from slugs.
The snails are not the edible kind. Or at least are the tastes like crap no matter what kind.
This is the best answer.
Put them in a jar with a bunch of garlic and parsley for a few days first though to purge whatever they've been eating
You have the right to defend your livelihood, which in this case is your food. I would exhaust all options prior to killing but after that I wouldn't hesitate to figure out the best way to prevent animals from eating my food.
If the only option you have is to kill snails or rats, then that's the only option you have. I don't see any difference between you doing the killing or you putting in place the ducks and cats doing it, unless we can come up with practical better ways to do so.
For snails, I would try physical barriers, natural repellents, marigolds and other companion planting.
For rats, I would try peppermint oil.
I grow a lot of my own food, and my biggest pests are deer. I use fences to keep deer out of the main garden. And a dog which scares off a lot of the unfenced areas between wanting to chase them and their urine being everywhere. I use neem, companion planting and other deterrents as well.
A vegan would strive to avoid the killing but accept realistically being unable to prevent all killing always.
As a nonvegan I would get the ducks, because they are protective of the land, they eat pests and their poop is a good fertilizer. I would also get a source of food by having ducks, I could eat their eggs or the duck, but I understand that doesn't work with your vegan lifestyle. But I wanted to bring this point up too, that ducks will lay eggs and the question is what will you do with the eggs? Not all of them are fertile and many wont hatch. Will you sell the eggs, leave them be or use them yourself?
Also having ducks means vet bills and caretaking, have you researched if your budget can cover these expences? What will you do if the flock gets too big and causes a nuisance?
There are great benefits to having ducks, but they will challenge your vegan lifestyle in many ways.
Only possible in warmer climates. (Unless you are filthy rich and can grow most of your food indoors.)
Of course it’s possible. You can and dry food, as well as grow greens and some root vegetables all winter under row covers. I’ve done it under snow.
Now, whether it’s possible vs practical to do on the scale to be totally self sufficient is a different question. Of course it would take a lot of land and a lot of work. It is possible though.
As far as your question OP, sorry I have never had to deal with snails so I don’t have specific practical advice for that, except my usual go to of row covers.
First you have to grow that food before you can and dry it. Its too cold here to grow most vegan staples. (But let me know if you know of a farmer who grows beans under snow)
Do you live in an arctic environment that never has summer or spring? Sure then that’s an issue. Most people don’t though, most people live in areas that have some growing season.
We do have summer, but its not warm or long enough to grow beans. Plus the fact that only 1% of our land is good quality farmland. However 45% of our land is rangeland that can be used for grazing.
Oh ok well being completely self sufficient without trade could be an issue in your specific area of the world then. If you can’t grow beans dunno if that means you also can’t have any trees with nuts or plants with seeds like sunflowers (probably).
Absolutely. and the less animal-based foods we eat, the more impossible it becomes. In fact - we would starve to death if we were to rely on plant-based foods only.
With only 1% good quality farmland available we would only be able to produce tiny quantities. So we are fully dependant on what food the ocean provides and what food the 45% of land usable for grazing provides. There is no way around that.
Sure there’s a way around it - trade. I’m not particularly concerned with global supply chains like OP. I think if that happened we’d have bigger problems than veganism. I do think everyone being more self sufficient (but not completely) by using their land to grow food instead of lawns would be much preferable, and in that kind of world trade could be even better. The areas that can grow excess would be able to send more to areas like yours.
There are situations where trade is not possible. And a situation like that might come to Europe sooner than we would like.
"Are we heading for World War Three?" https://theweek.com/92967/are-we-heading-towards-world-war-3
"Europe is preparing for possible war with Russia, without the US" https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-04-04/how-europe-nato-countries-are-preparing-for-war-with-russia/105116526
"Europe preparing for war as Ukraine conflict looms large, report finds Global Peace Index finds Europe’s military spending is rising amid fears the war in Ukraine will expand." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/11/europe-preparing-for-war-as-ukraine-conflict-looms-large-report-finds
Every citizen here has already been told by our government what each household needs to store (the amount needed for water, food, medicines, firewood, batteries, etc).
For 5 years during WW2 almost no food was able to enter Norway. We need to prepare in case the same happens again.
Yeah well war is exactly the bigger problem I was thinking about. I’ve been vegan for 27 years now and honestly I know it’s bad but the older I get the more I think humanity is just a cancer and nothing really matters. Not a helpful comment I know.
Somehow our ancestors in Scandinavia were self sufficient. Not vegan though.
I'd rather not get into situation of the classical carnist thought play of starving or compromising on veganism, but I do see this as a real possibility when (not if) global supply chains collapse.
Without fish, meat and dairy it would be impossible. Back in the day butter was seen as so valuable that it was used as a means of payment to buy other necessities. During WW2 many people survived why raising backyard rabbits. One advantage is that they can live on grass and wild plants in summer and hay in winter. No other feed is needed.
Do not, as someone else suggested, eat the snails. I am posting this as a separate comment because I don’t want them to bother me.
Not all snails are edible and can carry parasites that have horrific consequences—like paralyzing death consequences. Snails are basically parasite bombs.
We are also considering ducks/chickens but mostly ducks becase my toddler loves them and chickens give me the heebies. Keeps the weeds down and the critters away, but they’re also going to eat your salad leaves.
We live on a small couple acres that backs onto farmland and we definitely have cats for pest control. When the mice and rats are chewing through my pipes and wiring, they gotta go before they burn my house down. The cats keep them away from the house and the chickens that appeared are really good mousers also. Chickens will also eat their own eggs so you don’t have to worry about that mess, not sure about ducks.
We have fruit trees and generally gardens enough to grow our fresh fruit and veg for the year to preserve and quash our grocery bill down to soy milk, vital wheat gluten, sugar and tofu because we definitely don’t have the space to grow a sustainable amount of soybeans to cover what we use. If I had another five acres, I’d definitely give it a go.
Edit: spelling
Killing pests doesn‘t constitute animal exploitation, nor is ot a form of animal cruelty like a religious sacrifice or a circus.
As a respnsible and conscious human being you surely have ethical responsibilities, but I don‘t think you necessarily violate vegan doctrine here.
Some people may have their own opinions or interpretations of what veganism is or what a vegan also should do , but that‘s besides the hard facts and the vegan definition. Just to settle that question.
snails are pests given your circumstances. If you've tried ways to deter them and they don't work and they have a significant impact on your crops then you can't be expected to just ignore them. Snails also don't have a brain or actual pain receptors. I'm not entirely against the idea of relocating creatures and letting them do their thing because it's beneficial, but modt ways you'd access ducks would be unethical and I'm worried about what else you're willing to justify with that mindset, it feels slippery. Just use some salt
I personally found mixing my herbs and plants additionally focusing on perennials and more of them slugs and birds eat them but I get the leftovers. Its like the saying with seeds, 1 to plant and 2 for the birds when planting seeds.
When you mix alliums with the greens it works as well.
Infestations reduce animals to pests which can be eradicated, which is not vegan in itself. I don't see any reason to kill them when relocation is easier in some cases. However, I am aware that most vegans have no problem calling an exterminator when they have an issue of that type.
Exterminator or pesticide are not self sufficient and thus aren't an option. There's only so much you can do by picking up the slugs and moving them.
Yeah, sometimes even those options fail. Not sure what to do. Honestly, sometimes it doesn't bother me that much and I just live with it. It depends on the nature of the situation, though. Never heard of slugs, I'd think it would be a couple which would be easy to just move. Get a big bucket and move then around? I'd try that before killing them. Drive out to someplace somewhat far away that also has animals similar to the slugs or snails and just relocate them.
They lay like a million eggs and eat the leaves of many plants. Not feasible to move unless that's your day job.
Are these plants required for your lifestyle or food? Otherwise, I don't see the issue. If they don't bite or eat your food source, then so what? If they eat or ruin your food source, then yeah it's kind of messed up. Not sure how to go about it. How many are you dealing with in your house? I can't wrap my head around enough slugs or snails to be that big of a problem.
You may enjoy this new, vegan-adjacent philosophy called antapodism: The Antapodist's Vegan, Vegetarian, and Flexitarian Introduction and Starter Guide
I have no advice as a city dweller, but want to say thank you for being true to the title. I came here to bitch about how killing others for food isn't "growing your own" and was pleasantly surprised.
Just move, deter the snails or plant sacrificial crops. No need to kill them.
Carnist here,
If you want to be vegan then abandon this self sufficiency thing that has you controlling pests and go back to just buying produce from your local grocery store.
Nematodes.
Eat the snails. It appears you are quite the proficient snail farmer.