Because I am free to say that I agree with the chart and that I don't care who you think wins, I wouldn't say anything to you if you hadn't responded directly to me
I think the actual idea is more along the lines of the Queen and the Zone Guardians by extension using 'the power of the Sun', but like you can play the game yourself and see that literally nothing suggests that it's relevant to their combat stats in any way, shape or form. It's maybe-sorta a creation feat, sure, but it's very clearly not something combat-applicable. That said, OFF just doesn't have good AP feats at all, or, at least, that's what I remember being the case before the remake came out, so maybe something's changed since then
If it's their mere existence that keeps those places in check than I would be on board with it, but the game's pretty vague about that stuff (which makes sense since it's a metaphor)
Mach 0.8 comes from scaling to the Batter who can climb up a latter up a tall chimney very fast, and the Light Speed reaction time comes from being able to react to stuff in the Nothingness which makes you move at light speed, notably where Batter fights the secret boss Carnival.
Mach 3-6 for Sans is just general monster speed scaling for many of their attacks and scaling to Frisk’s speed being able to dodge monster attacks, and increasing their speed with stuff like Sea Teas
heads up, the calc of Batter running up the Chimney in Zone 3 in inflated due to assuming he climbs the entire thing, even though it has both non-Euclidean geometry and also extends underground. The Batter also does not fight anyone in the Nothingness, as the Carnival fight takes place within the Infinite Valley, which is a different area (+ moving at lightspeed is referring to the teleportation animation, which is a literal light beam that noone scales to)
I mean, I see your points, but I disagree with the outcome.
AP and Durability being an advantage against Sans means borderline nothing, that's the entire point of Sans's fight with him bending his world's rules. I mean Frisk was 1LV away from ending a timeline and Sans was still fighting them just fine, so "being AP and Durability stomped" doesn't actually change the outcome.
I don't buy FTL OFF and "100% accurate moves" more than likely is 100% because people simply don't dodge. And even if you wanted to mention it's still projectiles in a scenario where Sans mostly fights a kid with a knife. Sans has canonically killed Flowey repeatedly (and Flowey killed Sans at least once) so they MUST'VE fought at one point or another. It'd also be weird for Sans to be caught off guard by projectiles in a world where everyone but Frisk fights using magic.
Sans's stamina is bad, but it's not THAT bad. Realistically Sans's stamina would last him longer than the average Deathbattle animation anyhow.
The durability negation isn't really "limited" because it lets Sans repeatedly hit something for low damage (both the soul and their physical body) which could potentially give Sans the win. Without consistent healing Sans wouldn't need a lot of time to kill The Judge.
Sans is definitely smarter if we count the lab behind his house, and the reports he gives during the genocide fight.
Personally I think for those reasons Sans would win, High-Extreme diff.
The nothigness statement is more than likely referring to the teleport animation, which in the remake is pretty blatantly a beam of light. Assuming it's referring to movement within the area would require proof that the judge knows how you are moving exactly at that speed within the nothingness
Sans's durability negation being limited means he'd have too much trouble killing Judge quickly enough
Sans's dura neg isn't limited,I'd assume this is referring to how armour pieces shield attacks on your soul, but this isn't how armour fully works (check the description for the faded ribbon) and otherwise Judge has nothing to resist his soul being targetted.
100% competencies are hard to dodge
Competences aren't 100% or literally undodgable. In the og game, they can be lowered by the blindness status effect, which implies they are based on the characters' percision. In the remake attacks that are 100% accurate still needs to travel very obvious distances to hit people and are likely only 100% accurate because OFF characters can't dodge in combat. Neither version of the game has any examples of the attack being truly undodgeable so assuming so seems like a NLF to its core.
Sans being debatably smarter
I'd say Sans is just outright smarter. Judge acts smart but he doesnt really have the best showings of intelligence to prove he compares to Sans who is researching timelines and can guess how many times you've died from your facial expressions.
Those are the main points I wanted to address since Sans stats seem fine and alot of Judges advantages require him to land his attacks which I just don't buy him doing effectively.
Also the fact that "AP and Durability stomping" are even listed as Sans's weaknesses despite the fact that Sans's entire moveset and strategy makes both AP and Durability entirely irrelevant
Sans can’t just hit Judge once and insta-kill him because soul damage, the damage clearly scales with the user’s physicality, and the more durable they are, the more they’ll be able to survive it. While it can bypass Invincibility Frames in Undertale, which could imply a degree of duraneg, it’s far from the instantly killing durability negation it’s been hyped up as.
It's definitely not insta-kill but it's still complete durability negation. The only reason it doesn insta-kill is because Sans himself doesn't actually have the fire power to back it up with.
And odds are Sans could still kill The Judge relatively quickly but that's mostly up to interpretation.
Unless you only buy that explanation being the reason frisk's body gets damaged everytime they take a soul attack (since toriel does state your body gets damaged If you take too many attacks in the ruins)
However, that would SEVERELY nerf Frisk's speed and that of sans as well
If feel like Flowey's statment is supposed to imply that the soul is a representation of a person,hence why the Human souls can act despite obviously not having their bodies.
However, that would SEVERELY nerf Frisk's speed and that of sans as well
I mean it's still a disadvantage at the end of the day,but it does seem like some disadvantage for Sans in this debate get overblown as sole factors when they're anything but. Mainly his strength and stamina disadvantages.
I mean yeah, it's a "smaller number" on the stat screen but with The Judge never hitting Sans (until he's tired) and Sans negating durability both AP and Durability contribute nothing at all.
Which is what some power scalers tend to forget: a fight against Sans isn't a matter of "who can nuke the most planets"
The biggest factors against Sans are Speed, Hax, and Versatility
Judge doesn't have enough Hax to beat the speed problem
Sans is faster
And Sans is more versatile
So all The Judge can do is hope he outlasts Sans's stamina
Multi-directional: Danmaku that is produced from at least more than one origin point. Users who employ multi-directional danmaku may be able to create overlapping or curved projectile attacks designed to trap their opponents or take advantage of blind-spots. Some danmaku users can also create more origin points called "options", that are controlled by the user.
Examples: Gilgamesh (Fate Series), Sans (Undertale), Alice Margatroid (Touhou Project), Iowa-class Battleship (Real World)
The Light speed thing makes sense, but honestly imo the result doesn't change much even if Sans has faster reaction speed
Sans's dura neg is limited in the sense that it can only damage in very small increments overtime rather than simply being able to instantly one-shot through targeting the soul, meaning Sans has to whittle Judge's massive durability advantage down which requires time he likely doesn't have with his bad stamina.
I never said the Compentences were undodgible, just that the nature of their accuracy will make then hard for Sans to dodge.
Sans wouldn't have to worry about Judge's durability if he was attacking his soul. Durability between body and soul are different.
In what regard are they hard to avoid then? Attacks are only 100% accurate due to OFF characters not moving to avoid them in combat. There's no evidence that Sans couldn't just side step them,especially since he's avoided Frisk's slashes which are also "100% accurate" within the rules of Undertale.
I mean even if you don't think Sans just oneshots due to Judge having zero SOUL durability showings, he'd still just tear him to shreds in seconds due to him at the very most only really being comparable to a LV1 Frisk (+ in the Remake Judge only has 300 HP, so it would only take Sans 10 seconds to kill him regardless without taking into account KR)
You've highlighted two anti-feats and nothing else. Frisk has plenty of feats better than this.
No other feats above this until true pacifist, which sans wouldn't scale to.
No reason to believe monster lightning is as fast as normal.
Frisk power scales based on how determined they are,the examples you've listed are when Frisk clearly isn't trying or at their best/more determined.
Tomato feat is explicitly them trying their best. Also the oven explosion is clearly part of a comedic scene and probably shouldn't be a feat, since its already an outlier, and Undyne is relatively unharmed, when shes normally very susceptible to heat.
Frisk dodging sound waves from both Shyren and Greater dog,Vulkin's attacks should count as electricity of we are counting Mettaton's as such. Frisk can dodge asteroids from Knight Knight's that should at least get mach five. Sans can keep up with a much stronger Frisk even while they are boosted with sea tea, which increase your speed.
Tomato feat is explicitly them trying their best. Also the oven explosion is clearly part of a comedic scene and probably shouldn't be a feat, since its already an outlier, and Undyne is relatively unharmed, when shes normally very susceptible to heat.
You claim the tomato feat is Frisk trying thier best while also dismissing the oven explosion as a feat because it's in a gag scene,when both feats are literally in the same section of the game. I'm detecting double standards. Undyne not taking the Hotlands heat too well isn't an anti-feat when the Hotlands are so hot they can instantly vapourise water in a cup and the cup itself. That's way higher than the heat of an oven
I mean, Flowey himself outright points out the soul, and then hits it with "friendliness pellets"
You can't get more direct than that.
As for "how they collect the soul afterwards" human souls are inherently far more durable (and stubborn) than monster souls, so while the physical body gives up first, the soul can usually last a bit longer on its own. Frisk's just so stubborn that they'll literally fight until their dying breath.
They shouldn’t. Mostly cuz how would the monsters even collect the human souls? Would attacking the soul destroy it, and thus not have it in a state where it could be collected? The human needs to die for their soul to be collected, and the soul persists after death, meaning that it’s just the body that needs to die, and thus monster magic only attacks the body and not the soul.
VSBW is notorious for being bad, and the soul appearing in every battle is likely just a symbolic thing as again, how would they capture a human soul by utilizing attacks that can damage, and thus destroy it?
Yeah. I think this matchup has always been clear cut but it's been around so long that people have overthought it and come up with contrived reasons Sans wins so now if it becomes an official Death Battle people are gonna be mad when they go with the obvious outcome.
sans' arguments aren't really overly convoluted imo. it basically just boils down to him being faster + soul hax dura neg
judge's light speed stuff has been under more scrutiny recently, so it really just boils down to whether or not you think the arguments for it are valid. i don't really buy them personally, so without them i think sans just outspeeds and pummels him with his soul hax
Undertale ‘soul hax’ are kinda like Henry’s retries where we’re taking a game mechanic that is clearly not meant to be interpreted the way we do and we base 100% of their MUs around them
Yeah, okay, but like, ‘souls’ in Undertale are obviously attached to the physical body. You can protect your soul by putting armor on, and for as much as people want to say the ribbon ‘makes monsters hit less hard,’ that doesn’t explain the tutu, apron, cowboy hat, glasses, locket or Temmie armor ‘protecting’ your soul either. Undertale souls also persist after death, considering the humans before Frisk are definitely dead yet their souls are still in-tact and kept in jars. All this is to say Undertale itself does not support the idea that ‘soul damage’ is a dura neg.
No it isn't, you can wear the best armor in the game or no armor, Nothing changes. Only cloudy glasses can make less poison affect you because it messes with the frames, but even then Sans always deals his constant DPS.
Something I've always found curious about this MU is how the animation would contrast the debate IF sans wins
Because his main wincon is capping Judge before he can do anything too crazy, it seems if Pablo gets to do anything else he just wins
It'd be funnier if the animation DID follow the wincon, and it was this massive buildup only for Sans to kill The Judge in the first 5 seconds.
Alright, the combatants are set. We've run the data through all possibilities.
IT'S TIME FOR A DEATH BATTLEEE!!!
(Sans fight intro fail)
The Winner is Sans The Skeleton.
https://preview.redd.it/95kz84ccf79g1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e86a73fb8e89224ea2e1c516c711ce6adbe7067
"huh. always wondered why people never use their strongest attack first"
Yeah I agree
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Danmaku
However
I
Dissagre
Glad for you, I don't really care but you're free to have your own opinions even if I don't care 👍
That kinda the reason kinda just win tho
Glad for you??? I don’t care as I said
Soo why care tô actually say ?
Because I am free to say that I agree with the chart and that I don't care who you think wins, I wouldn't say anything to you if you hadn't responded directly to me
Ok
how is he star level again
Scales to the Batter, who beat up the Queen, who sustained a space with more than one star iirc
I think the actual idea is more along the lines of the Queen and the Zone Guardians by extension using 'the power of the Sun', but like you can play the game yourself and see that literally nothing suggests that it's relevant to their combat stats in any way, shape or form. It's maybe-sorta a creation feat, sure, but it's very clearly not something combat-applicable. That said, OFF just doesn't have good AP feats at all, or, at least, that's what I remember being the case before the remake came out, so maybe something's changed since then
If it's their mere existence that keeps those places in check than I would be on board with it, but the game's pretty vague about that stuff (which makes sense since it's a metaphor)
Where do the speed stats come from?
Mach 0.8 comes from scaling to the Batter who can climb up a latter up a tall chimney very fast, and the Light Speed reaction time comes from being able to react to stuff in the Nothingness which makes you move at light speed, notably where Batter fights the secret boss Carnival.
Mach 3-6 for Sans is just general monster speed scaling for many of their attacks and scaling to Frisk’s speed being able to dodge monster attacks, and increasing their speed with stuff like Sea Teas
heads up, the calc of Batter running up the Chimney in Zone 3 in inflated due to assuming he climbs the entire thing, even though it has both non-Euclidean geometry and also extends underground. The Batter also does not fight anyone in the Nothingness, as the Carnival fight takes place within the Infinite Valley, which is a different area (+ moving at lightspeed is referring to the teleportation animation, which is a literal light beam that noone scales to)
Yeah, you literally enter the Infinite Valley from the Nothingness via a portal
Im ngl frisk's speed is very dubious. Almost every feat they have is scaling to something without a confirmed speed
I mean, I see your points, but I disagree with the outcome.
AP and Durability being an advantage against Sans means borderline nothing, that's the entire point of Sans's fight with him bending his world's rules. I mean Frisk was 1LV away from ending a timeline and Sans was still fighting them just fine, so "being AP and Durability stomped" doesn't actually change the outcome.
I don't buy FTL OFF and "100% accurate moves" more than likely is 100% because people simply don't dodge. And even if you wanted to mention it's still projectiles in a scenario where Sans mostly fights a kid with a knife. Sans has canonically killed Flowey repeatedly (and Flowey killed Sans at least once) so they MUST'VE fought at one point or another. It'd also be weird for Sans to be caught off guard by projectiles in a world where everyone but Frisk fights using magic.
Sans's stamina is bad, but it's not THAT bad. Realistically Sans's stamina would last him longer than the average Deathbattle animation anyhow.
The durability negation isn't really "limited" because it lets Sans repeatedly hit something for low damage (both the soul and their physical body) which could potentially give Sans the win. Without consistent healing Sans wouldn't need a lot of time to kill The Judge.
Sans is definitely smarter if we count the lab behind his house, and the reports he gives during the genocide fight.
Personally I think for those reasons Sans would win, High-Extreme diff.
This, just this.
Alright, I want to run through this.
The nothigness statement is more than likely referring to the teleport animation, which in the remake is pretty blatantly a beam of light. Assuming it's referring to movement within the area would require proof that the judge knows how you are moving exactly at that speed within the nothingness
Sans's dura neg isn't limited,I'd assume this is referring to how armour pieces shield attacks on your soul, but this isn't how armour fully works (check the description for the faded ribbon) and otherwise Judge has nothing to resist his soul being targetted.
Competences aren't 100% or literally undodgable. In the og game, they can be lowered by the blindness status effect, which implies they are based on the characters' percision. In the remake attacks that are 100% accurate still needs to travel very obvious distances to hit people and are likely only 100% accurate because OFF characters can't dodge in combat. Neither version of the game has any examples of the attack being truly undodgeable so assuming so seems like a NLF to its core.
I'd say Sans is just outright smarter. Judge acts smart but he doesnt really have the best showings of intelligence to prove he compares to Sans who is researching timelines and can guess how many times you've died from your facial expressions.
Those are the main points I wanted to address since Sans stats seem fine and alot of Judges advantages require him to land his attacks which I just don't buy him doing effectively.
Also the fact that "AP and Durability stomping" are even listed as Sans's weaknesses despite the fact that Sans's entire moveset and strategy makes both AP and Durability entirely irrelevant
Sans can’t just hit Judge once and insta-kill him because soul damage, the damage clearly scales with the user’s physicality, and the more durable they are, the more they’ll be able to survive it. While it can bypass Invincibility Frames in Undertale, which could imply a degree of duraneg, it’s far from the instantly killing durability negation it’s been hyped up as.
It's definitely not insta-kill but it's still complete durability negation. The only reason it doesn insta-kill is because Sans himself doesn't actually have the fire power to back it up with.
And odds are Sans could still kill The Judge relatively quickly but that's mostly up to interpretation.
Give proof. And don't have it be the armour stuff.
Judge doesn't resist soul hax. Whether or not it's a "one shot" doesn't matter,it will not be a long amount of time either way.
Its something flowey implies on his first appearance, tho, it would only apply to Undertale characters regardless.
Can you elaborate,or is just him saying that EXP and LVL make you stronger?
Flowey states that the soul is the "embodiement of your being"
The stronger your body is, the stronger your soul is, and vice versa.
That's a really weird argument,I won't lie
I mean, seems to be the best approach.
Unless you only buy that explanation being the reason frisk's body gets damaged everytime they take a soul attack (since toriel does state your body gets damaged If you take too many attacks in the ruins)
However, that would SEVERELY nerf Frisk's speed and that of sans as well
If feel like Flowey's statment is supposed to imply that the soul is a representation of a person,hence why the Human souls can act despite obviously not having their bodies.
How exactly?
I mean it's still a disadvantage at the end of the day,but it does seem like some disadvantage for Sans in this debate get overblown as sole factors when they're anything but. Mainly his strength and stamina disadvantages.
I mean yeah, it's a "smaller number" on the stat screen but with The Judge never hitting Sans (until he's tired) and Sans negating durability both AP and Durability contribute nothing at all.
Which is what some power scalers tend to forget: a fight against Sans isn't a matter of "who can nuke the most planets"
The biggest factors against Sans are Speed, Hax, and Versatility
Judge doesn't have enough Hax to beat the speed problem
Sans is faster
And Sans is more versatile
So all The Judge can do is hope he outlasts Sans's stamina
Yep I agree with that.
Danmaku
Danmaku what?
Multi-directional: Danmaku that is produced from at least more than one origin point. Users who employ multi-directional danmaku may be able to create overlapping or curved projectile attacks designed to trap their opponents or take advantage of blind-spots. Some danmaku users can also create more origin points called "options", that are controlled by the user.
Examples: Gilgamesh (Fate Series), Sans (Undertale), Alice Margatroid (Touhou Project), Iowa-class Battleship (Real World)
And how is this some instant win here
The Light speed thing makes sense, but honestly imo the result doesn't change much even if Sans has faster reaction speed
Sans's dura neg is limited in the sense that it can only damage in very small increments overtime rather than simply being able to instantly one-shot through targeting the soul, meaning Sans has to whittle Judge's massive durability advantage down which requires time he likely doesn't have with his bad stamina.
I never said the Compentences were undodgible, just that the nature of their accuracy will make then hard for Sans to dodge.
Sans wouldn't have to worry about Judge's durability if he was attacking his soul. Durability between body and soul are different.
In what regard are they hard to avoid then? Attacks are only 100% accurate due to OFF characters not moving to avoid them in combat. There's no evidence that Sans couldn't just side step them,especially since he's avoided Frisk's slashes which are also "100% accurate" within the rules of Undertale.
I mean even if you don't think Sans just oneshots due to Judge having zero SOUL durability showings, he'd still just tear him to shreds in seconds due to him at the very most only really being comparable to a LV1 Frisk (+ in the Remake Judge only has 300 HP, so it would only take Sans 10 seconds to kill him regardless without taking into account KR)
This is glazing judge way to much😭
Genuinely how is sans building and mach 3
I believe small building comes from Frisk surviving Undyne's oven exploding and mach 3 comes from electricity dodging
Tomato level sans confirmed
Outlier since frisk gets damaged from the electric buzzer and cant dodge
You've highlighted two anti-feats and nothing else. Frisk has plenty of feats better than this.
Frisk power scales based on how determined they are,the examples you've listed are when Frisk clearly isn't trying or at their best/most determined.
No other feats above this until true pacifist, which sans wouldn't scale to.
No reason to believe monster lightning is as fast as normal.
Tomato feat is explicitly them trying their best. Also the oven explosion is clearly part of a comedic scene and probably shouldn't be a feat, since its already an outlier, and Undyne is relatively unharmed, when shes normally very susceptible to heat.
Frisk dodging sound waves from both Shyren and Greater dog,Vulkin's attacks should count as electricity of we are counting Mettaton's as such. Frisk can dodge asteroids from Knight Knight's that should at least get mach five. Sans can keep up with a much stronger Frisk even while they are boosted with sea tea, which increase your speed.
You claim the tomato feat is Frisk trying thier best while also dismissing the oven explosion as a feat because it's in a gag scene,when both feats are literally in the same section of the game. I'm detecting double standards. Undyne not taking the Hotlands heat too well isn't an anti-feat when the Hotlands are so hot they can instantly vapourise water in a cup and the cup itself. That's way higher than the heat of an oven
Makes sense to me
Nice. I’m questioning whether or not monster attacks can even DAMAGE the soul, so I agree.
They do attack the soul.
I mean, Flowey himself outright points out the soul, and then hits it with "friendliness pellets"
You can't get more direct than that.
As for "how they collect the soul afterwards" human souls are inherently far more durable (and stubborn) than monster souls, so while the physical body gives up first, the soul can usually last a bit longer on its own. Frisk's just so stubborn that they'll literally fight until their dying breath.
They do
They shouldn’t. Mostly cuz how would the monsters even collect the human souls? Would attacking the soul destroy it, and thus not have it in a state where it could be collected? The human needs to die for their soul to be collected, and the soul persists after death, meaning that it’s just the body that needs to die, and thus monster magic only attacks the body and not the soul.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/something-about-undertale-deltarune-soul-hax-and-durability-negation.186387/
VSBW is notorious for being bad, and the soul appearing in every battle is likely just a symbolic thing as again, how would they capture a human soul by utilizing attacks that can damage, and thus destroy it?
It's not symbolic.
https://preview.redd.it/z078yzjqh79g1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14a64659facc52b4ad8a7c1e818d5bba58549c59
It's literally your soul, physically being present for fights.
It was never symbolic by the way.
IMO, it is.
It not
IT IS.
Nha
https://youtu.be/sSGQQnTQe4Y?si=azkb5muZoZPbkByd
Goofy ass 😭
Yeah. I think this matchup has always been clear cut but it's been around so long that people have overthought it and come up with contrived reasons Sans wins so now if it becomes an official Death Battle people are gonna be mad when they go with the obvious outcome.
sans' arguments aren't really overly convoluted imo. it basically just boils down to him being faster + soul hax dura neg
judge's light speed stuff has been under more scrutiny recently, so it really just boils down to whether or not you think the arguments for it are valid. i don't really buy them personally, so without them i think sans just outspeeds and pummels him with his soul hax
Undertale ‘soul hax’ are kinda like Henry’s retries where we’re taking a game mechanic that is clearly not meant to be interpreted the way we do and we base 100% of their MUs around them
Undertale like… entire deal is that game mechanics are canon
Yeah, okay, but like, ‘souls’ in Undertale are obviously attached to the physical body. You can protect your soul by putting armor on, and for as much as people want to say the ribbon ‘makes monsters hit less hard,’ that doesn’t explain the tutu, apron, cowboy hat, glasses, locket or Temmie armor ‘protecting’ your soul either. Undertale souls also persist after death, considering the humans before Frisk are definitely dead yet their souls are still in-tact and kept in jars. All this is to say Undertale itself does not support the idea that ‘soul damage’ is a dura neg.
Sans can negate the armor in the game. He is like the only monster where you cannot use this (wrong) argument against
Not an expert on KR but it is still slowed down by armor and it can’t kill.
No it isn't, you can wear the best armor in the game or no armor, Nothing changes. Only cloudy glasses can make less poison affect you because it messes with the frames, but even then Sans always deals his constant DPS.
Danmaku.
yeah pretty much
a lot of arguments on sans' side always seemed like either cope, misinformation or people just never playing off in their lives anyway
Nha
who's nha?
Sans nickname for your mother.
https://preview.redd.it/exclfo32l79g1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f4919d4f32e097cfa4ed6127d162c26e6f9f9b93
It true i was the blanket in your mother bed i saw everthing
Actually sans' speed is mach 5000+
OFF fans just making shit up atp 😭💔, holy wank
Uh huh
“Speed of Light reactions”
https://preview.redd.it/m6j75emgr79g1.jpeg?width=498&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5de706c55b770f82ece30f5cc5c3264d0f11021e
Sans also has FTL scaling as they are likely faster than napstablook who could close blinds before light reached them