If the New 52 hadn't happened, I feel Jason and Mia would have been foils/rivals. Like a villainous take on Roy and Dick.
Jason could have been such a good parallel to Mia. He also would have done so well teaming up with Rose Wilson and Eddie Bloomberg.
Shame he got revamped so heavily during the New 52. I hate post RHATO Jason and anti-villain Jason. I don't want uwu soft boy Jason or discount Huntress Jason. I want him to work to become good again
Not really. That story in Green Arrow had nothing to do with Jason's feelings towards Mia. It was mostly a message to Bruce. The only parallel there was that Jason had gone through a lot in his past before getting adopted to survive (Winick hinting to a means of survival audiences didn't see with Jason) and him saying that to Mia in an "I've been there" kind of message for her. But it didn't seem like he had anything more to say or do with Mia. It also seemed like, to my memory, Mia herself wasn't actually as enraged with this encounter as much as Mia fans were. It also doesn't feel like a match up needed. Jason just got finished getting trained by the League of Assassins, All-Caste, world tours with some of the top experts in black ops, and of course was trained by Batman. The story kind of read more like bullying rather than a fair fight, he was toying with her. It worked for an issue, wouldn't work as a rivalry. While I agree that Jason would've gone in a completely different direction had the reboot not happened, I doubt much would've continued for him and Mia.
Yeah he went way too far there. TBH he may have kept his villain angle for longer if he didnt jump the shark there with his weird cockroach transformation and then right after was the 1 misstep of Morrisons Batman and Robin with the pillhead costume and social media anti hero angle. I think after those 2 weird storylines Jason was in a position where they had to get him working and leaning more hero than antihero is what worked.
Her doing well against Jason makes having a huge win. Batman and Nightwing often struggle fighting him. I wish Mia and Steph would hang out and team up. I feel that could be easily bffs.
I hate Arrowfam being made Batfam sidekicks, but Mia with either Tim or Stephanie is the one case where I think it would be a competent match-up. They would be equals.
Mia is a vastly underrated fighter and detective. DC brought her back in 2023 then backpedaled. They're treating Lian like she's Mia's replacement.
I could see her hang out with Tim. But it would be nicer if Mia had girl friends.
I think could be cool for both characters.
I feel that there is a estigma if a character uses a weapon that means that he/she/they are only good with it. I think Roy escape that because he often is seen using different weapons.
I wouldn't say I am happy with how Team Arrow is back. It went from Oliver to Oliver & Dinah + Roy and then 3 + Connor + Mia + Lian + Sin + Let's make Cissie/Arrowette being on Team Arrow + Let's create Red Canary. I don't think Sin even interacted with Oliver or the rest of the team arrow. Green Arrow talks with Red Canary like she is Mia. To not mention how little Connor hangs with Roy and Oliver.
It really isn't tbh. Jason's not taking the fight seriously, hell the previous issue is him basically just trolling green arrow. He outright has her at a point where he can kill her and doesn't go all the way, he pretty quickly is able to rid her of her best weapon (her bow) when he doesn't want her to use it anymore (Which shows he could have easily just shot her if he wanted to). The moment he gets stops bantering he drops her.
Unfortunately, he’s now lumped in with the other Robins, and being the moody bulkhead is a convenient personality to fill with the leader(Dick) and smart one(Tim), similar to TMNT.
Personal opinion is that he should’ve either stayed dead or stayed a villain. I don’t hate him as a hero, just doesn’t seem as interesting as other options.
I really liked him as a hero, especially when he was going around space and having magic powers, felt like his own guy, but just making him “stupid” after that was annoying, a villain would be fine too but it would be a bit too tragic
Judd Winick was the worst thing to happen to Jason Todd since Denny O'Neil hired Jim Starlin as head writer of Batman. Every time I finish UTRH, I go back to the Jaybin era stories and I realize how much got wasted as a result of Winick wanting to emulate HUSH instead of stories that were actually good.
*Sorry if this makes you upset OP :(, you're probably a big fan of Winick's GA.
And what’s so bad about utrh? I definitely understand disliking the “Jason was always gonna be evil and not even Bruce could save him” narrative but that, unfortunately, has been around forever.
And trauma does change people, both physical and mental, I think it’s clear, even in utrh, Jason truly thinks he’s doing the right thing, even if he’s obviously not.
And what’s so bad about utrh? I definitely understand disliking the “Jason was always gonna be evil and not even Bruce could save him” narrative but that, unfortunately, has been around forever.
Because UTRH pretty much codified it as canon instead of rightfully fighting it. If you read Jason’s post-Crisis stories, then jumped to UTRH, there is a huge escalation in Jason’s character, to the point the Jason of UTRH might as well be Jason in name only.
This moment from UTRH pretty much encapsulates everything wrong with Winick’s take on the character because he makes is no meaningful attempt to bridge this character to Jaybin’s days. Under Winick, Jason is perfectly cool with letting drugs flood the streets and violence against women and children despite all that being major triggers for him as a child. Jason is the clear victim in all of this, but Winick didn’t care. Why? Because he never cared about the character to begin with, and thus felt fine to twist his character. Because he read HUSH and misunderstood it. That’s literally the reason why he put it upon himself to bring back Jason, and I’m not even making this up. HUSH is what inspired UTRH.
And trauma does change people, both physical and mental, I think it’s clear, even in utrh, Jason truly thinks he’s doing the right thing, even if he’s obviously not.
Except we have the prequel RH: Lost Days to show us what Jason was like after returning, and he was actually pretty normal. He was distraught with sadness, but showed the ability to feel remorse and look out for others. Never at once point did he show murderous tendencies like he did in UTRH. Unfortunately, all of the character development is for nothing as it’s a prequel story and if you go from UTRH to LD and vice versa, it’s a mess. He goes from LD to becoming a monster in UTRH, and there’s no satisfying explanation for it.
I wouldn’t call lost days Jason normal or stable. He still tortures people, kills while joking about it, even Talia is freaked out by Jason’s meticulous plan to kill Bruce when he first gets back to Gotham.
I think the ending, where Jason lets the joker live for his vengeance against Bruce (despite acknowledging the world would be better if he just killed him then) shows that even if he’s capable of doing good, in the end all he cares about is Bruce.
And I think Jason in utrh genuinely thinks he’s doing right. He does follow through with no dealing to kids rule, we don’t get any details about prostitution (tho I can imagine based on lost days he definitely kill anyone trafficking children) to make a full judgement off of it. Even with the drugs you can argue Jason knows that you cannot stop people from doing it, and that going cold turkey is deadly (not justifying anything at all, just going through his perspective, he’s meant to be a hypocrite).
And like I said, trauma does change people. He saw systems fail so took it into his own hands. He saw crime and criminals never facing consequences so he became brutal. He felt abandoned so needed to show the world he existed and he won’t be forgotten. Truth is, utrh is him at his worst, his most unstable, his most lonely. And frankly, I think a lot of Jason fans and haters alike fall into perfect victim mentality where he has to do nothing wrong ever in order to be a real victim.
And, unfortunately, Jason’s fate as the “bad robin” was solidified when he was replaced by the less traumatized kid from a higher social status background that the writers wanted the audience to know wouldn’t be a “screw up” like the last poor robin. His fate was solidified when dc got unexpected backlash they needed to quickly fix. His fate was solidified when a kid from a poor background who questioned the systems was introduced during Reagan era, “pull yourself up by your bootstraps/war on drugs” conservative America. Even before he died, we’re told Bruce saved him from himself by teaching him how to “redirect his anger” rather than simply giving him the stability any child needs.
Hi, I've never read this comic, and don't know if this was the point, but I like the parallel of Batman and GA showing up right as the building explodes, just like what happened with Bruce arriving just too late to save Jason.
I think something a lot of relatively newer fans miss out on is that Jason was a really heinous vilian after he came back. I was in that camp and was genuine shocked at how much the new 52 had done to sanitise his character.
I simetimes still find it difficult to square the pre and post flash point version's of red hood as the same character
To be fair, it's not like Jason wasn't all over the place prior to the New 52. If you read The Lost Days prequel story, Jason's character is already all over the place because in TLD he shows a greater display of human emotion, particularly remorse for other people. So when you read UTRH, none of those human elements are there; Jason is a very heinous person in the story that needed to show the best of him after a fifteen year absence. Instead, Winick goes into overdrive to portray him as someone who is willing to commit murder and profit off crime in the name of very flimsy ideals. The more you read UTRH, the more you realize how much of a botched story it is. Quite literally the Starrcade '97 of Batman comics.
All of this stems from Judd Winick not having a long term plan and ending UTRH on an equally confusing manner.
He never was a "heinous" villain. He was upset but never aimed at killing any heroes or anyone that he felt didnt deserve it (except for Bruce). He messed with Mia here and terrorized the Titans for a minute (who tbf sorta deserved it when their group just forgot about Jason but gave memorials to every other dead Titan at the time)
What he did to Onyx was pretty heinous. Leaving dead bodies all over Gotham City is pretty heinous. Having shootouts in the public and endangering the public is pretty heinous.
It's easy to forget how much Jason loved using explosives.
Winnick's Jason can't go a single scene without blowing something up and I love him for that
jason todd was written as a psycho and now everything is just fine
check out nightwing one year later boy was he just crazy in that
If the New 52 hadn't happened, I feel Jason and Mia would have been foils/rivals. Like a villainous take on Roy and Dick.
Jason could have been such a good parallel to Mia. He also would have done so well teaming up with Rose Wilson and Eddie Bloomberg.
Shame he got revamped so heavily during the New 52. I hate post RHATO Jason and anti-villain Jason. I don't want uwu soft boy Jason or discount Huntress Jason. I want him to work to become good again
Not really. That story in Green Arrow had nothing to do with Jason's feelings towards Mia. It was mostly a message to Bruce. The only parallel there was that Jason had gone through a lot in his past before getting adopted to survive (Winick hinting to a means of survival audiences didn't see with Jason) and him saying that to Mia in an "I've been there" kind of message for her. But it didn't seem like he had anything more to say or do with Mia. It also seemed like, to my memory, Mia herself wasn't actually as enraged with this encounter as much as Mia fans were. It also doesn't feel like a match up needed. Jason just got finished getting trained by the League of Assassins, All-Caste, world tours with some of the top experts in black ops, and of course was trained by Batman. The story kind of read more like bullying rather than a fair fight, he was toying with her. It worked for an issue, wouldn't work as a rivalry. While I agree that Jason would've gone in a completely different direction had the reboot not happened, I doubt much would've continued for him and Mia.
Yeah he went way too far there. TBH he may have kept his villain angle for longer if he didnt jump the shark there with his weird cockroach transformation and then right after was the 1 misstep of Morrisons Batman and Robin with the pillhead costume and social media anti hero angle. I think after those 2 weird storylines Jason was in a position where they had to get him working and leaning more hero than antihero is what worked.
Her doing well against Jason makes having a huge win. Batman and Nightwing often struggle fighting him. I wish Mia and Steph would hang out and team up. I feel that could be easily bffs.
I hate Arrowfam being made Batfam sidekicks, but Mia with either Tim or Stephanie is the one case where I think it would be a competent match-up. They would be equals.
Mia is a vastly underrated fighter and detective. DC brought her back in 2023 then backpedaled. They're treating Lian like she's Mia's replacement.
I could see her hang out with Tim. But it would be nicer if Mia had girl friends. I think could be cool for both characters. I feel that there is a estigma if a character uses a weapon that means that he/she/they are only good with it. I think Roy escape that because he often is seen using different weapons. I wouldn't say I am happy with how Team Arrow is back. It went from Oliver to Oliver & Dinah + Roy and then 3 + Connor + Mia + Lian + Sin + Let's make Cissie/Arrowette being on Team Arrow + Let's create Red Canary. I don't think Sin even interacted with Oliver or the rest of the team arrow. Green Arrow talks with Red Canary like she is Mia. To not mention how little Connor hangs with Roy and Oliver.
It really isn't tbh. Jason's not taking the fight seriously, hell the previous issue is him basically just trolling green arrow. He outright has her at a point where he can kill her and doesn't go all the way, he pretty quickly is able to rid her of her best weapon (her bow) when he doesn't want her to use it anymore (Which shows he could have easily just shot her if he wanted to). The moment he gets stops bantering he drops her.
Too bad.
God I miss this era of red hood. He was poised to be the best new villain of the 2000’s
Jason used to be such a competent villain, admired how some people think of him Nora as the dumb jock, like Tom king
Unfortunately, he’s now lumped in with the other Robins, and being the moody bulkhead is a convenient personality to fill with the leader(Dick) and smart one(Tim), similar to TMNT.
Personal opinion is that he should’ve either stayed dead or stayed a villain. I don’t hate him as a hero, just doesn’t seem as interesting as other options.
I really liked him as a hero, especially when he was going around space and having magic powers, felt like his own guy, but just making him “stupid” after that was annoying, a villain would be fine too but it would be a bit too tragic
Judd Winick was the worst thing to happen to Jason Todd since Denny O'Neil hired Jim Starlin as head writer of Batman. Every time I finish UTRH, I go back to the Jaybin era stories and I realize how much got wasted as a result of Winick wanting to emulate HUSH instead of stories that were actually good.
*Sorry if this makes you upset OP :(, you're probably a big fan of Winick's GA.
And what’s so bad about utrh? I definitely understand disliking the “Jason was always gonna be evil and not even Bruce could save him” narrative but that, unfortunately, has been around forever.
And trauma does change people, both physical and mental, I think it’s clear, even in utrh, Jason truly thinks he’s doing the right thing, even if he’s obviously not.
Because UTRH pretty much codified it as canon instead of rightfully fighting it. If you read Jason’s post-Crisis stories, then jumped to UTRH, there is a huge escalation in Jason’s character, to the point the Jason of UTRH might as well be Jason in name only.
https://preview.redd.it/7yxcke6yi09g1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e4493eed70d6c7f52f56b741db53f8c275d389d
This moment from UTRH pretty much encapsulates everything wrong with Winick’s take on the character because he makes is no meaningful attempt to bridge this character to Jaybin’s days. Under Winick, Jason is perfectly cool with letting drugs flood the streets and violence against women and children despite all that being major triggers for him as a child. Jason is the clear victim in all of this, but Winick didn’t care. Why? Because he never cared about the character to begin with, and thus felt fine to twist his character. Because he read HUSH and misunderstood it. That’s literally the reason why he put it upon himself to bring back Jason, and I’m not even making this up. HUSH is what inspired UTRH.
Except we have the prequel RH: Lost Days to show us what Jason was like after returning, and he was actually pretty normal. He was distraught with sadness, but showed the ability to feel remorse and look out for others. Never at once point did he show murderous tendencies like he did in UTRH. Unfortunately, all of the character development is for nothing as it’s a prequel story and if you go from UTRH to LD and vice versa, it’s a mess. He goes from LD to becoming a monster in UTRH, and there’s no satisfying explanation for it.
I wouldn’t call lost days Jason normal or stable. He still tortures people, kills while joking about it, even Talia is freaked out by Jason’s meticulous plan to kill Bruce when he first gets back to Gotham.
I think the ending, where Jason lets the joker live for his vengeance against Bruce (despite acknowledging the world would be better if he just killed him then) shows that even if he’s capable of doing good, in the end all he cares about is Bruce.
And I think Jason in utrh genuinely thinks he’s doing right. He does follow through with no dealing to kids rule, we don’t get any details about prostitution (tho I can imagine based on lost days he definitely kill anyone trafficking children) to make a full judgement off of it. Even with the drugs you can argue Jason knows that you cannot stop people from doing it, and that going cold turkey is deadly (not justifying anything at all, just going through his perspective, he’s meant to be a hypocrite).
And like I said, trauma does change people. He saw systems fail so took it into his own hands. He saw crime and criminals never facing consequences so he became brutal. He felt abandoned so needed to show the world he existed and he won’t be forgotten. Truth is, utrh is him at his worst, his most unstable, his most lonely. And frankly, I think a lot of Jason fans and haters alike fall into perfect victim mentality where he has to do nothing wrong ever in order to be a real victim.
And, unfortunately, Jason’s fate as the “bad robin” was solidified when he was replaced by the less traumatized kid from a higher social status background that the writers wanted the audience to know wouldn’t be a “screw up” like the last poor robin. His fate was solidified when dc got unexpected backlash they needed to quickly fix. His fate was solidified when a kid from a poor background who questioned the systems was introduced during Reagan era, “pull yourself up by your bootstraps/war on drugs” conservative America. Even before he died, we’re told Bruce saved him from himself by teaching him how to “redirect his anger” rather than simply giving him the stability any child needs.
Hi, I've never read this comic, and don't know if this was the point, but I like the parallel of Batman and GA showing up right as the building explodes, just like what happened with Bruce arriving just too late to save Jason.
Why though?
I think something a lot of relatively newer fans miss out on is that Jason was a really heinous vilian after he came back. I was in that camp and was genuine shocked at how much the new 52 had done to sanitise his character.
I simetimes still find it difficult to square the pre and post flash point version's of red hood as the same character
To be fair, it's not like Jason wasn't all over the place prior to the New 52. If you read The Lost Days prequel story, Jason's character is already all over the place because in TLD he shows a greater display of human emotion, particularly remorse for other people. So when you read UTRH, none of those human elements are there; Jason is a very heinous person in the story that needed to show the best of him after a fifteen year absence. Instead, Winick goes into overdrive to portray him as someone who is willing to commit murder and profit off crime in the name of very flimsy ideals. The more you read UTRH, the more you realize how much of a botched story it is. Quite literally the Starrcade '97 of Batman comics.
All of this stems from Judd Winick not having a long term plan and ending UTRH on an equally confusing manner.
He never was a "heinous" villain. He was upset but never aimed at killing any heroes or anyone that he felt didnt deserve it (except for Bruce). He messed with Mia here and terrorized the Titans for a minute (who tbf sorta deserved it when their group just forgot about Jason but gave memorials to every other dead Titan at the time)
What he did to Onyx was pretty heinous. Leaving dead bodies all over Gotham City is pretty heinous. Having shootouts in the public and endangering the public is pretty heinous.
Why not? Jason beat up and traumatized Mia. He got off scott-free. Let her get her just desserts.
Edit:
Oops, thought you meant why I want Mia to confront Jason again. Wrong post.
Jason did this to get Batman's attention and make Bruce mad. He also wanted Mia on his side.
Scott Mcdaniels art is so great
And Jason Fraud fans want me to feel bad that their psycho incel favorite gets treated like shit by DC lol.