What does it mean to not make idols? I'm an enquirer to Orthodoxy and have read much about Orthodox being argued with for icons (with it being said that icons are idols)
Sorry your response about joshua is not showing up, i only can see it in my notifications. However they prayed "Towards" the arc, not "To" the arc.
6 Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell to the earth on his face before the ark of the Lord until the evening, he and the elders of Israel. And they put dust on their heads. 7 And Joshua said, “Alas, O Lord God, why have you brought this people over the Jordan at all, to give us into the hands of the Amorites, to destroy us? Would that we had been content to dwell beyond the Jordan! -Joshua 7
He directed his prayer to Yahweh, but he faced the arc. Thats like facing a cross, Im not praying to the cross, im just facing it while I pray to Yahweh.
Across the Orthodox Christian populations of the Empire, peasants tended to confer to the icon an excessive agency that, during the late Tsarist period, both the state and the Russian Orthodox Church (to which the Georgian Orthodox Church had lost its autocephaly in the first half of the nineteenth century) strove to contain in their parallel effort to institutionalize and control peasant religious practices while keeping up divine order against the onslaught of atheistic scientificity and revolutionary doctrines (Shevzov 1999;Frank 1999;Chulos 2012)
Luka Nakhutsrishvili: Icons in Motion: Sacred Aura and Religious Identity
But it’s important to point out… this is how idols worked as well. No Canaanite idol worshiper thought their wooden idol was literally a god, just a representation through which to channel devotion.
The Ark of the Covenant isn’t exactly an icon. The Israelites were specifically commanded by God to construct it, and what to place into it, and at multiple points in the story interacting with it treated by God as interacting with God Himself.
It’s not a great comparison to icons because it’s a lot more complicated than they are.
I dont have to. Worship is only for God, and no where in scripture is Prayer accepted except for God. The only name in scripture you can call upon is Yahweh.
Again, provide evidence that prayer is worship, otherwise your claim that 'prayer is worship' is invalid. Historically, prayer has always meant talking. Provide evidence that talking to someone is worship, or else your argument is invalid. I get that for protestants, talking/praying is the highest form of 'worship' you'll ever do in your life, but you need evidence that it is actually worship, or else your argument is invaid
In hebrew Palal (which is prayer) means to intercede, appeal, retreat before GOD.
In hebrew qara' (which is prayer) means to call upon (Which scripture states you can only call upon YAHWEH)
In greek proseuchomai (which is prayer) means direct petition towards a deity
In greek deomai (which is prayer) means to beg or implore in religious dependency
It doesnt mean "talking".
Lets look at what worship means by verses:
5 Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy\)a\) will go over there and worship and come again to you.” Gen 22:5
Worship here meant a sacrifice towards the Lord.
these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.” - Isaiah 56:7
So in the house of prayer, they will sacrifice and worship.
Let my prayer be counted as incense before you,
and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice! -Psalm 141:2
Prayer being considered a sacrifice
The hebrew word for worship is Shachah which means to depress, to bow down, or to fall prostrate... Dont we do that when we pray? Didn't Jesus say when we pray we start with
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
Thats not a statement of submission?
Worship in greek is also Latreia which means sacrifice/service. Its used in Romans 12:1
12 I appeal to you therefore, brothers,\)a\) by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Would say this is equivalent to prayer as someone from a foreign country communicated to Paul
Acts 16:9 NKJV
[9] And a vision appeared to Paul in the night. A man of Macedonia stood and pleaded with him, saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.”
As prayer by definition is solemn request for help not a sign of worship
Thing is, this was a vision from God. No where does it say the man was praying to paul, are asking paul in reality. This is just the vision God gave to paul. And verse 10 states:
10 And when Paul\)c\) had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.
And in scripture we dont even see the Macedonian, it was just a vision to have Paul preach in Macedonia.
However, the verse is clear this person is talking to Paul as it doesn't say the man was talking to God asking for Paul.
What do you think the man was doing that isn't prayer? Just talking outloud ? That would be crazy for someone to talk to no one asking for someone across the country to come and see him.
It says he saw a vision of a man urging him to come.
I dont think the man was an actual person. I believe it was a vision from God letting Paul know to come to that city to spread the gospel. Hence why we never see Paul meet this specific man in the vision, or he about him again in the scripture. It was just a vision.
God used a vision to communiate to paul. The Macedonian is a symbol, not an intercessor. Paul interprets as a calling from God, not an appeal from a human.
This is pretty much it - there's a difference between veneration and worship that people often mix up. Orthodox Christians venerate icons as windows to the divine but don't worship the actual physical object itself
there was a huge fight over this in the orthodox church in the 8th century. You can look up Iconoclasm to see what their arguments were and what the counterarguments were
There are worship patterns in human's meant only for God. Due to sin they r corrupted. So anything can be an idol such as our possessions, pets, partners, parents, self, sport/ rock stars, priests, pastors, doctors, money, and so on.
Agreed that icon are idols, and they should be burnt.
Why since we don't know what they look like so it misrepresenting then. That enough for it to be an idol.
I never see icons every have any good come out of them.
Don’t make idols doesn’t just mean don’t make statues you worship, it also means don’t put other things before God. We make idols unintentionally all the time, which is something I don’t think a lot of people realize, and something I struggle with too. It can be your phone, your work, even other people ❤️
If you haven't an addiction, that's an idol. Forgoing prayer and bible study for social media or sleep, that's an idol. Working on the Sabbath (with some exceptions), that's an idol.
Anything that you worship, or akin to worship that is not God. The Catholics are horrible at this. A golden calf is the reason why Moses in a fit of rage broke the Ten Commandments. The people were so thirsty for something they melted down all of their gold and were singing and dancing before it when Moses came down the mountain. Instead of them believing in God, knowing that He was with them the entire time they lost their faith. Your faith is inside you, you need nothing further. It's the reason why I love that Jesus prayed in the garden rather than in a temple - it's the same principle, God is with you, no matter where you are. "When two or more gather in my name, I am there." Matthew 18. You don't need a figure of God or Jesus in order to worship, like other religions (Hindu, Paganism, Buddhism etc) you just need yourself.
It is not about statues or figures or pictures or whatever.
It us about having "no other gods."
What are some other gods people worship? Success, money, sex, fame, self, relationships, politics. Even the Bible or a church can become an idol if we place those things ahead of loving God.
Which is where the deadly sins come in. Proverbs 6:16-19. Pride, greed, lust...etc. It is the conflicts of inner desires that put those wants above God. When you worship those things above God, yes, they in that form become idols as well. It can be confusing because having pride in a hobby well done or even the want of financial stability is not the sin, but when we want those things over God and rhwy consume us the problem is.
It was an example, just as their are examples throughout the Bible. Most passages dont put everything in one tidy spot you have to study the Bible as a whole.
Would it be bad if I had an icon of Jesus, mother Mary and a saint when I pray? I have an icon corner with a cross and some incense with my icons, I don't want to be doing something wrong though
Depends on who you ask. A Catholic will say no, other denomination will say yes. Catholics believe praying to, or through them as helpers absolve that are they feel it helps go to God with more oomph. Catholics do things a lot differently which is why they are so entrenched in iconography with Mary and the Angels as figures of divinity. When in doubt...go pass the middle people and take it directly to God and Jesus - you'll never go wrong.
The common saying is that icons are windows into heaven.
Your icon of Jesus, is not Jesus himself. It just helps us focus.
The setup you described is essentially just like a normal Orthodox prayer corner. Icons, candles, incense, prayer rope etc. are all common, whatever helps you focus.
Not bearing false witnesses when I witnessed Catholics actively pray to the angels and Mary. I've been in a church that put 2 million dollars into a cathedral ceiling depicting the angels so you can pray before them. ST. Johns Church, Lima Ohio. Catholic stores sell medallions with saints that come with prayers to that saint...aka Saints Michael, Patrick, and Christopher etc. That is putting things akin to God, praying things that aren't God, and I find that idolatry. It's not bearing false witness when you witness it. It's calling it out for what it is. If there are any Catholics offended, perhaps they should pray on it. How often are they praying to a Saint or Mary rather than directly to God.
I matters as much as yours...so if you believe mine doesn't matter...neither does yours. Religion can be taken two ways - as rhetoric or faith. I will always chose Godly faith over manmade rhetoric. Some of the most Biblically Un-Godly people I've ever known have been ministers and Christians.
I see the passage as having two separate commandments.
(1) You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. (2) You shall not bow down to them or worship them
The first part says do not make any image of anything in heaven or whatever.
The second part says not to worship idols (whether you made it, or someone else made it).
Catholics and Orthodox ignore that first part about not making an image in the form of anything in heaven. They think it doesn't matter unless they worship it.
God says, "Do not kill/murder", then commands the Israelites to murder nearly everyone they run into. Sometimes it's "war," (is it really war if only one side is fighting?), but other times it's simply because they were gay, or practiced a different religion, or for no other reason than the Israelites wanted their land ("the land of milk and honey" had people living there).
No, they are different from what represents an idol biblically. Being that at that time people were worshipping carved images of stone or wood. What you consider spiritual in faith, is acceptable before the Lord. I'm not Orthodox but Roman Catholic, you are perfectly fine in your faith, let no tell you otherwise. Peace and love to you
Anything we put above God is a idol. Phones can be an idol, money can be a idol, people can be idols, that’s an entire occupation. God is our highest priority, Christianity is about developing a relationship with God.
Lots of people also make sports an idol. Or entertainment. And usually, deep down, *we* are our own idol. It's why Jesus said "deny YOURSELF and follow me".
It means to not make idols, things that are worshipped.
Icons arent worshipped, therefore aren't idols.
Thank you for your input! So I wouldn't be breaking that commandment having icons in my room?
No, of course not. Think about the ark of the covenant and the temple of Solomon which had iconography of the cherubs.
There's nothing wrong with iconography and it isn't an idol.
Sorry your response about joshua is not showing up, i only can see it in my notifications. However they prayed "Towards" the arc, not "To" the arc.
He directed his prayer to Yahweh, but he faced the arc. Thats like facing a cross, Im not praying to the cross, im just facing it while I pray to Yahweh.
Okay. Then use the same reasoning for iconography.
No one prays to the icon. The prayers are directed to God in front of the icons.
Thats why i said "unless you pray to it". I am using the same reasoning. If direct it to anything but Yahweh, it's an idol/false God.
But that makes it a pointless thing to say since no one has ever done that.
People have and they do it.
No they don't. Could you give an example?
Luka Nakhutsrishvili: Icons in Motion: Sacred Aura and Religious Identity
Exactly!
But it’s important to point out… this is how idols worked as well. No Canaanite idol worshiper thought their wooden idol was literally a god, just a representation through which to channel devotion.
The Ark of the Covenant isn’t exactly an icon. The Israelites were specifically commanded by God to construct it, and what to place into it, and at multiple points in the story interacting with it treated by God as interacting with God Himself.
It’s not a great comparison to icons because it’s a lot more complicated than they are.
Unless you pray to it...
Prayer isn't worship
It is. Prayer is an act of worship. Show me one verse where prayer is offered to anything but God.
Show me one verse where it says prayer is worship. Pro Tip: you cant
I dont have to. Worship is only for God, and no where in scripture is Prayer accepted except for God. The only name in scripture you can call upon is Yahweh.
Again, provide evidence that prayer is worship, otherwise your claim that 'prayer is worship' is invalid. Historically, prayer has always meant talking. Provide evidence that talking to someone is worship, or else your argument is invalid. I get that for protestants, talking/praying is the highest form of 'worship' you'll ever do in your life, but you need evidence that it is actually worship, or else your argument is invaid
No where is prayer just meant talking... Never.
In hebrew Palal (which is prayer) means to intercede, appeal, retreat before GOD.
In hebrew qara' (which is prayer) means to call upon (Which scripture states you can only call upon YAHWEH)
In greek proseuchomai (which is prayer) means direct petition towards a deity
In greek deomai (which is prayer) means to beg or implore in religious dependency
It doesnt mean "talking".
Lets look at what worship means by verses:
Worship here meant a sacrifice towards the Lord.
So in the house of prayer, they will sacrifice and worship.
Prayer being considered a sacrifice
The hebrew word for worship is Shachah which means to depress, to bow down, or to fall prostrate... Dont we do that when we pray? Didn't Jesus say when we pray we start with
Thats not a statement of submission?
Worship in greek is also Latreia which means sacrifice/service. Its used in Romans 12:1
And historically prayer always meant talking?
Would say this is equivalent to prayer as someone from a foreign country communicated to Paul
Acts 16:9 NKJV [9] And a vision appeared to Paul in the night. A man of Macedonia stood and pleaded with him, saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.”
As prayer by definition is solemn request for help not a sign of worship
Thing is, this was a vision from God. No where does it say the man was praying to paul, are asking paul in reality. This is just the vision God gave to paul. And verse 10 states:
And in scripture we dont even see the Macedonian, it was just a vision to have Paul preach in Macedonia.
However, the verse is clear this person is talking to Paul as it doesn't say the man was talking to God asking for Paul.
What do you think the man was doing that isn't prayer? Just talking outloud ? That would be crazy for someone to talk to no one asking for someone across the country to come and see him.
It doesnt say a man was praying to paul.
It says he saw a vision of a man urging him to come.
I dont think the man was an actual person. I believe it was a vision from God letting Paul know to come to that city to spread the gospel. Hence why we never see Paul meet this specific man in the vision, or he about him again in the scripture. It was just a vision.
God used a vision to communiate to paul. The Macedonian is a symbol, not an intercessor. Paul interprets as a calling from God, not an appeal from a human.
Yes
This is pretty much it - there's a difference between veneration and worship that people often mix up. Orthodox Christians venerate icons as windows to the divine but don't worship the actual physical object itself
there was a huge fight over this in the orthodox church in the 8th century. You can look up Iconoclasm to see what their arguments were and what the counterarguments were
Thank you! I'll definitely take a look at that
Basically don't worship something that isn't God.
Icons aren't idolatry as no one worships icons
Put anything before God. So if you prioritize money before God, Money is your idol. If you prioritize family before God, family is your idol. etc.
There are worship patterns in human's meant only for God. Due to sin they r corrupted. So anything can be an idol such as our possessions, pets, partners, parents, self, sport/ rock stars, priests, pastors, doctors, money, and so on.
Agreed that icon are idols, and they should be burnt. Why since we don't know what they look like so it misrepresenting then. That enough for it to be an idol. I never see icons every have any good come out of them.
Ask your priest.
Don’t make idols doesn’t just mean don’t make statues you worship, it also means don’t put other things before God. We make idols unintentionally all the time, which is something I don’t think a lot of people realize, and something I struggle with too. It can be your phone, your work, even other people ❤️
Don't make anything more important than God.
If you haven't an addiction, that's an idol. Forgoing prayer and bible study for social media or sleep, that's an idol. Working on the Sabbath (with some exceptions), that's an idol.
Certainly! May God bless you 🤍
Anything that you worship, or akin to worship that is not God. The Catholics are horrible at this. A golden calf is the reason why Moses in a fit of rage broke the Ten Commandments. The people were so thirsty for something they melted down all of their gold and were singing and dancing before it when Moses came down the mountain. Instead of them believing in God, knowing that He was with them the entire time they lost their faith. Your faith is inside you, you need nothing further. It's the reason why I love that Jesus prayed in the garden rather than in a temple - it's the same principle, God is with you, no matter where you are. "When two or more gather in my name, I am there." Matthew 18. You don't need a figure of God or Jesus in order to worship, like other religions (Hindu, Paganism, Buddhism etc) you just need yourself.
Yeah, that ain't it.
It is not about statues or figures or pictures or whatever.
It us about having "no other gods."
What are some other gods people worship? Success, money, sex, fame, self, relationships, politics. Even the Bible or a church can become an idol if we place those things ahead of loving God.
Which is where the deadly sins come in. Proverbs 6:16-19. Pride, greed, lust...etc. It is the conflicts of inner desires that put those wants above God. When you worship those things above God, yes, they in that form become idols as well. It can be confusing because having pride in a hobby well done or even the want of financial stability is not the sin, but when we want those things over God and rhwy consume us the problem is.
Some of those things aren't even mentioned in those verses.
It was an example, just as their are examples throughout the Bible. Most passages dont put everything in one tidy spot you have to study the Bible as a whole.
you're going to offend the sola scriptura protestants with this one but it is true
Would it be bad if I had an icon of Jesus, mother Mary and a saint when I pray? I have an icon corner with a cross and some incense with my icons, I don't want to be doing something wrong though
Icons and such are useful to focus our minds and attention. We are not worshipping them.
Depends on who you ask. A Catholic will say no, other denomination will say yes. Catholics believe praying to, or through them as helpers absolve that are they feel it helps go to God with more oomph. Catholics do things a lot differently which is why they are so entrenched in iconography with Mary and the Angels as figures of divinity. When in doubt...go pass the middle people and take it directly to God and Jesus - you'll never go wrong.
The common saying is that icons are windows into heaven.
Your icon of Jesus, is not Jesus himself. It just helps us focus.
The setup you described is essentially just like a normal Orthodox prayer corner. Icons, candles, incense, prayer rope etc. are all common, whatever helps you focus.
Quoting the ten commandments in the same breath that you bear false witness against your neighbor is crazy work, prot
Not bearing false witnesses when I witnessed Catholics actively pray to the angels and Mary. I've been in a church that put 2 million dollars into a cathedral ceiling depicting the angels so you can pray before them. ST. Johns Church, Lima Ohio. Catholic stores sell medallions with saints that come with prayers to that saint...aka Saints Michael, Patrick, and Christopher etc. That is putting things akin to God, praying things that aren't God, and I find that idolatry. It's not bearing false witness when you witness it. It's calling it out for what it is. If there are any Catholics offended, perhaps they should pray on it. How often are they praying to a Saint or Mary rather than directly to God.
good thing your opinion doesn't matter
I matters as much as yours...so if you believe mine doesn't matter...neither does yours. Religion can be taken two ways - as rhetoric or faith. I will always chose Godly faith over manmade rhetoric. Some of the most Biblically Un-Godly people I've ever known have been ministers and Christians.
I see the passage as having two separate commandments.
The first part says do not make any image of anything in heaven or whatever.
The second part says not to worship idols (whether you made it, or someone else made it).
Catholics and Orthodox ignore that first part about not making an image in the form of anything in heaven. They think it doesn't matter unless they worship it.
The problem with this is that God explicitly commands them to make images of things on more than one occasion.
And?
God says, "Do not kill/murder", then commands the Israelites to murder nearly everyone they run into. Sometimes it's "war," (is it really war if only one side is fighting?), but other times it's simply because they were gay, or practiced a different religion, or for no other reason than the Israelites wanted their land ("the land of milk and honey" had people living there).
Where is this in the Bible?
So icons are bad?
No, they are different from what represents an idol biblically. Being that at that time people were worshipping carved images of stone or wood. What you consider spiritual in faith, is acceptable before the Lord. I'm not Orthodox but Roman Catholic, you are perfectly fine in your faith, let no tell you otherwise. Peace and love to you
Thank you, may God bless you and your family 💞
Anything we put above God is a idol. Phones can be an idol, money can be a idol, people can be idols, that’s an entire occupation. God is our highest priority, Christianity is about developing a relationship with God.
This ^^^.
Lots of people also make sports an idol. Or entertainment. And usually, deep down, *we* are our own idol. It's why Jesus said "deny YOURSELF and follow me".