Muzan was never meant to be cool. He does seem similar to "All For One" in "My Hero Academia" where beneath the villainous bravado, he is ultimately using fear to cover up a lie--his physical issues.
My problem with Demon Slayer in general is that the author, by prioritizing spectacle, created a power imbalance between the two sides, forcing the villain to act in a rather convenient way, like the villains in 90s action movies (I always say replacing Muzan with someone of average intelligence and Nakime would be more than enough to wipe out the Demon Slayer Corps). This prevents me from truly enjoying the heroes' victories because they rely on a mountain of plot conveniences, and I can't see them as meritorious.
I can see your point with this, and I definitely think the writing in a lot of the narrative leaves much to be desired. However, I don’t think the writing problem lies within the antagonist in this situation. I actually think it’s the writing around him that’s lacklustre. Which is exactly why the common critique of Muzan specifically grates me a little - because I think Muzan and Kokushibo were the best part of the writing - as controversial as that is.
Incompetency is a perfectly fair balancing tool as long as it makes sense for the character - which in Muzan’s case, I would argue it does. The problem, I think, comes from the characters not acknowledging and using it actively. They do sometimes - for instance Kagaya and Tamayo do it a bit. However, it’s under-utilised and more often than not, his cowardice and incompetence effects the plot passively which leads to it feeling unearned.
If, for example, the main cast figured out his weakness then started actively trying to plan with his fear in mind, and use it against him, that would feel a lot less bullshit and I think it’s be more interesting too. Especially since they do have a window to find out about it through Tamayo - she even outright calls him a coward, but it’s just not really addressed by the characters it should be addressed by.
Essentially I think Muzan’s writing is actually pretty good but it’s not utilised in the way I think it should be. Muzan isn’t the issue, the way the other characters are written to react to him is.
Again, apologies if this has typos or anything. I’m just replying on my phone while out of the house.
I understand, my problem wouldn't be with the character idea itself, but rather that it's too obvious that it's there to facilitate the resolution of the plot, also because the hunter corps has an attitude that is too dependent on Muzan's mistakes, almost as if Kagaya had read the script.
But that's not really what happens at all, Muzan doesn't follow as the plot dictates, he acts completely consistent with the character that's established for him since the start.
He never gets the idiot ball, or makes a convenient choice, every choice he makes (right or wrong) is understandable from his perspective with his own aims in mind.
Personally, I'd say Demon Slayer avoids a lot of the issues with victories you're talking about because we see just how hard fought and just how much the heroes have to sacrifice to achieve them.
Instead of something like say JJK where people can go up against Sukuna and 99% of the time be perfectly fine (even Higurama somehow...), going up against any Demon, especially the Upper Moons and most especially Muzan is guaranteed deadly for every member of the cast.
Nobody gets away for free, nobody gets through it unscathed. The victories feel earned because the cost to achieve them is staggering.
I cannot agree , the victories of the Hunter Corps are based mostly on Muzan acting in an extremely convenient way, on Tanjiro constantly acquiring plot benefits such as last-minute power-ups, talking to the dead, and for some reason inherited memories (in addition to Nezuko being a walking plot device).Supposedly intelligent characters like Kagaya or Shinobu make plans that depend on factors beyond their control and could fail in a million different ways—in other words, a plan devised by someone who knows the script, not as an inhabitant of the story's world.... etc
Of these, I can only agree with Tanjiro's power ups.
Shinobu's plan depend on outside factors because it's the only option she has and she's not confident she can do it any other way.
Kagaya's plan is quite simple. After realizing that Muzan would be coming, the plan was simply to blow up Muzan to weaken him, and then delay him until sunrise. At the time he had no way to know about Nakime, so to him, every factor was already taken into account. Additionally, even if the plan had failed disastrously, Muzan still loses because Kagaya's son has escaped, likely like important documents, and there were Demon Slayers not caught by Nakime. This wouldn't be the first time the corps were near destruction and they'd simply rebuild. Plus, Muzan was aiming for Nezuko, who would already have been turned human, putting conquering sunlight out of Muzan's grasp.
Muzan's actions, were, from Muzan's point of view, completely logical and consistent and I can not agree that it was "dumb" because that's a judgment you make using outside information. Using information that Muzan had, he always used equal or greater than necessary firepower. But this loops back to Tanjiro's power ups which I do not fault Muzan for.
>Kagaya's plan is quite simple. After realizing that Muzan would be coming, the plan was simply to blow up Muzan to weaken him,
Muzan uses his pocket dimension (one of the most broken and versatile powers in fiction) with a 30-minute reasoning process, and the hunter corps is completely wiped out. (Not to mention the other hundred tactical advantages he conveniently chooses not to use.)
>Shinobu's plan depend on outside factors because it's the only option she has and she's not confident she can do it any other way.
Shinobu, although I loved the character, I can't consider her intelligent (or any other character in the series, for that matter) because she poisoned herself for years without a realistic way to locate Douma. In other words, she was completely dependent on factors beyond her control. Not to mention the long list of plot conveniences in her plan once she dies. The flaw in Shinobu's writing is that an intelligent character can only be written by an author who is also a genius. I realized instantly upon reading the chapter how terrible her plan was, but after a year of planning, she didn't realize it. Does that mean I'm a super-genius or that she has below-average intelligence in her actions?
Shinobu is intelligent in the same way as Bulma from Dragon Ball: she can perform magic, which the author calls science, but she doesn't demonstrate it through her actions.
Yes, he had a dimension (but it's also not his). But Kagaya didn't know about it so you really can't use it to judge Kagaya's plan.
In Muzan's case, he had already been marking Demon Slayers. The whole plan was to take all the demon slayers and lock them in the Infinity Castle to wipe out in one go, and during the final battle, about 60% had been marked.
Was it a mistake? Maybe. But if you lock him and his Upper Moons and his pseudo-Lower Moons into the Infinity Castle without having been poisoned, it's guaranteed that Muzan wins.
As for Shinobu, her plan was simple. Turn herself into a big walking poison and if she ever lost against Doma and gets eaten, she has a decent chance of trading one for one. What was the flaw in this plan? At worst, she doesn't run into Doma and gets eaten by another demon, but any demon that manages to eat her is still one that's worth poisoning. It wasn't her fault that Doma happened to be so strong that her poison only succeeded in weakening her. The infused poison was only a backup plan in case her other poisons don't work.
At this point, I suppose it's like talking to a brick wall for both of us. I consider almost all of Muzan's writing terrible, while you're going to defend the author's choices. As for Shinobu, many have given me the same defense, and I don't buy it. It's obvious Gotouge adores Shinobu, portraying her as precise and intelligent, and I don't buy it. With her characterization, she clings to a plan that could have failed (and should have) in a million ways, and in the process, kills her little sister. Shinobu's entire character revolves around being a sister and her revenge against Kanae's killer. The "At worst, she doesn't run into Doma and get eaten by another demon" argument strikes me as a cheap excuse from the fans. I don't buy what you're saying because Gotogue's many writing shortcomings lead me to believe that everything we're discussing stems from his flaws as a writer and the lack of planning in his story. He simply got stuck in a dead end and looked for easy solutions. Finally, HxH SPOILER: I consider the Chimera arc to be Dragon Ball Super if it were well-written: Netero's plan is Shinobu's plan, which works because of the character's actions, not the script; Knov's dimension is used as a pocket dimension should be used; and in general, the confrontation between two enemies with a vast disparity in power is developed very intelligently and creatively. You should read it if you haven't already.
Anyways, agree to disagree. I consider the author's writing much better than many give her credit for.
You criticize Shinobu's plan, but as I have said, it was the best she could do other than slipping a human drug into it as well. Logically, it works fine, and thematically, it's even better.
No victory was guaranteed and neither was the one against Douma. Perhaps it would have led Kanao to her death, but considering how desperation and the fragility of human life was always a factor in the manga, Kanao's possible death is not a flaw.
>You criticize Shinobu's plan, but as I have said, it was the best she could do other than slipping a human drug into it as well. Logically, it works fine, and thematically, it's even better.
Well, this is where, if you're a literary genius, you come up with a unique and creative solution. For mortal humans, Gotegue could have better framed the conflict to create more parity and avoid having to fix everything with plot conveniences and deus ex machina. Or, the simplest and laziest option is to leave everything as it is and use excuses: include a panel stating that Shinobu, instead of waiting for the world to adapt to her advantage, is actively searching for her prey, and then later in the story mention that she has several plans because, being intelligent, she considered various possible scenarios, without explaining what they are.
>No victory was guaranteed and neither was the one against Douma. Perhaps it would have led Kanao to her death, but considering how desperation and the fragility of human life was always a factor in the manga, Kanao's possible death is not a flaw.
The issue is that it's not a possible death, but an almost certain one with the information she has available, but again Shinobu acts as if Gotogue had given her a copy of the script.If they encountered Douma because the universe aligned in her favor, they would both die almost at the same instant, and the whole plan to weaken Douma would be ruined. In other words, even under ideal conditions, it's a terrible plan.
Am I supposed to believe that Kano would simply stand and let he eat Shibobu if someone didn't conveniently separate them and then reunite them at the exact moment like Gotogue did in the Infinite Castle? Again, the plan can only work if the writer forces it to work.
It's worse when the villain is repeatedly incompetent because you already know the tension is artificial, but the story insists on making you care, and that can break the immersion.
Rather than fine I'd say that's pretty much the entire point.
Muzan's attempts at being a badass aura farmer are constantly undone by his selfishness, his short-sightedness and his incompetence.
He didn't want to create any more Demons because he didn't want anyone except him to be special, yet, if he'd made more he almost certainly would have won. Even just another Upper Moon would have put victory out of reach. Even just not killing off all the Lower Moons likely would have made it impossible for the Demon Slayers to reach him.
Why would the Lower Moons even be relevant? At the time that Muzan killed the Lower Moons, the trio was already nearing the point of killing them solo with some effort. The Hashiras just need to look in their general direction and they explode (exaggeration), and probably some of the Kinoe can kill them with a bit of difficulty.
By the time we reach the end of the Manga, after 4 months of intense training, we have multiple nameless Slayers who can match Lower Moon strength demons (even if they might be weaker than real Lower Moons), such as people on the level of Murata.
In hindsight, Muzan killing the Lower Moons probably made the battle closer than it should have been. Imagine if he didn't. Tanjiro collects a few more samples of Upper/Lower Moon blood and Tamayo+Shinobu complete the human drug ahead of time, and instead of only having 2-3 doses by the final battle, they have 30 doses.
Then, as soon as Muzan appears, he gets injected with 10 doses. As soon as an Upper Moon appears, they get injected with 5.
I think Muzan from Demon Slayer fits the bill well here. Obvious spoilers for the plot of the series here:
A lot of people felt underwhelmed by Muzan's lack of a super deep or defined backstory, but I actually preferred it, he perfectly fulfilled his role as the evil overlord of the series, the one character who was truly irredeemable in every sense of the word, not a character that needed to be understood or saved. It let the other characters that we know by that point shine, and have their interactions in the final battle be the driving force. Plus, with how Demon Slayer's main theme is about the power of humanity, it wouldn't make sense to give that to the villain right at the end.
However, right near Muzan's death in the final battle, he has a bit of internal monologue where he recollects that death had always clung to him, and that not only did his heart stop multiple times in the womb, but that he was pronounced dead upon birth, and only woke up as a baby moments before he was to be cremated.
This, of course, goes in-line with the more obvious facets of his biology. His weakness being the Sun (which burns demons into ashes) likely, at least thematically, stems from his intended death by cremation. And, the fact that he augmented his body to contain five brains and seven heart, which is directly counteracting the whole "heart kept stopping" thing. And, his whole motivation of becoming ageless and cheating death stems from the fact that his first taste of life was cheating death.
But this fact also goes very in-depth into Muzan on a thematic level. It doesn't redeem him or garner any sympathy, but it explains what demons are: A demon is a dead man walking. Same as fate created Yoriichi to destroy Muzan and failed, fate tried to prevent Muzan's existence in the first place, and failed. Muzan is a man who had already died before he was born, and didn't have any right to exist in the world as he did.
This is why all demons, even Muzan (though he immediately uses the realization for evil), remember and understand their humanity in their dying moments: being a demon is a stopgap between life and death. Your human side is suspended at deaths door, but unable to pass through, because your body refuses to accept the natural order that EVERYTHING dies eventually.
I believe a story can be great without being groundbreaking, as long as the execution is good. The problem with DS is that there isn't much development, neither in the world nor in the characters. What you see in their first appearance is all there is to it, and when a character supposedly changes, it's like flipping a switch without any prior build-up.
It feels uninspired while clearly being inspired by past anime, everything interesting about it happens at the intro-first training arc.
After that, the potential character growth, flaws, mystery and horror of demons fades like paper in water. Supporting cast either never evolve or are deeply trite and annoying like Zenitsu. Nezuko loses her emotional weight and Tanjiro is the most boring goody-two-shoes, only flaw is he is too formal and can't insta win every conflict.
If they leaned into the popcorn flick aspect of the show and were more subtle on the almost inane moral sob scenes of the demons I would have no problems. Like Samurai Jack feels less cheesey than this
If I had to describe my experience, it almost felt like I'd watched a summary of a longer series. Although, again, I don't think borrowing elements from other series is a bad thing; Akira Kurosawa's "Throne of Blood" is one of the best films ever made and is basically Magbeth in feudal Japan.
Yeah, Inosuke and Genya are usually the characters that people like, even those who think DS is bad. But, like Zenitsu, he's been around for a long time, but the author only uses him as a comedic and action character until he pulls the whole connection to his fight in the Infinite Castle out of nowhere.
Not really, he was plenty brave, WHILE awake, in ED arc when he stopped Daki from abusing the little girl, knowing exactly what level of a demon she was.
So, it wasn't all a sudden switch flip. It was somewhat sudden, but it wasn't a 0 - 100
First of all, what you're saying about Inosuke and Zenitsu is the bare minimum I'd expect from a supporting character, and they fall far short of being part of the main group. It's like there's a huge gap between our standards. Not to mention the terrible handling of the whole master/senpai thing, which comes out of nowhere at the last moment, develops OFF-SCREEN, and is resolved with an asspull, only for Zenitsu to suffer a character regression at the end.
Now it's just goalpost moving. So what if there are better characters like him? That's not my point. My point is your initial description is wrong. Inosuke is a character who grows throughout the story. Zenitsu is not a 0-100 switch flip since he is shown to be brave before the flip whenever he needs to protect something he values. You are talking as if Zenitsu switched from his day 1 personality where he fainted in front of a kid he was supposed to protect all the way to his Kaigaku fight personality.
All I am saying is if you are gonna criticize something, at least be correct instead of generalizing "What you see in their first appearance is all there is to it, and when a character supposedly changes, it's like flipping a switch without any prior build-up."
This is the problem with Demon Slayer critics. Most of them don't inherently respect it and hence when they criticize it, you don't bother with the specifics and generalize the tropes it has in the worst way possible
I suppose you could say that each person considers what's sufficient in both Zenitsu and Inosuke's writing. For me, what you mention simply isn't enough because those are elements I've already seen executed far better in several other works.
The moments you highlight so much about Zenitsu seem like nothing to me; they are so few that at least what I would expect from a secondary character, not a main one.
Where exactly do you find people saying it's complex, the majority of people do think it's executed in a simple way and that doesn't mean it's bad. Complex doesn't always mean great or good. DBZ is super iconic and it's not complex.
Also the manga is talked about. You're just not in that space where it's talked about
It's the Internet and it's a wildly popular anime, a lot of people cling onto it because they are emotionally attached to characters or the story. And when someone criticizes it, people defend and oversell it in response.
Also, I've been a Dragon Ball fan since I was a baby, I know how delusional those people can be.
Also I never explicitly said that it was bad, just that it wasn't as deep as people who defend it say.
And I've read the manga as far as season 2 ends, it wasn't exceptional and the popularity of the show is indisputably carried by animation and art.
It's the internet anything that gets criticized will be defended by someone. That applies to anything
Also one point of the anime is to bring more awareness to the work so of course the popularity would sky rocket.
Not everyone is into manga or is aware of its existence. And if the manga truly was terrible it wouldn't be selling as much as it was but yet it's been breaking records here and there.
And none of that speaks to the actual quality of a product, once again, isekai slop took over the world and 2k sells crazy every year.
It's just not exceptional media, but that's not bad. Well, I believe plenty of other artworks should be promoted but that's not my decision and anything with mass appeal is almost always going to be shallow in terms of themes and character arcs.
I read Naruto as it came out all the way to the end, that shit was often not quality enough for it's numbers but that doesn't mean I think it's holistically bad.
I don’t think it’s as simple as having complexity or not having complexity. There are shades of grey between a children’s story and Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein. Still, even children’s stories can be broken down and analysed. I think most stories are more complex than they initially let on, and all art can be read into. No matter how a writer tells a story, they make conscious and subconscious decisions that reflect their worldview. Whether you enjoy it or not is completely personal preference but since art is so subjective it is very difficult to define the line between complex and not complex. I could make a case for Muzan being an allegory for unwanted childbirth but whether that’s true or not is not something you or I could ever know without speaking to the creator, and I honestly think it’s best that way. Art fuels art. Varying interpretations and opinions are very human, and very cool. I don’t think boiling it down to being completely flat is entirely fair.
I agree on many points, my focus is moreso on tangible writing that comes from the author rather than an individual's interpretation or extrapolation of said art.
I can appreciate the anime in the sense that it leads people to want more from storytelling in comparison to the average anime at the moment that is more focused on you becoming addicted to homogeneous character design, juvenile humor and disturbing sexualization of youth.
Those are points I can understand and agree with. Personally, I enjoyed the contrast of a completely selfless character willing to do anything - even die - to kill a completely selfish character who’s only goal is to not die. It’s simple in concept, but I enjoy it. I also really liked the baby symbolism. I genuinely found characters like Kokushibo, Tamayo and Muzan compelling, even if it isn’t my favourite work of all time. Which is why I recommend it to people who I think would like it.
One of my favourite medias ever is a music video series called Milgram. It’s incredibly underrated for the depth it goes into with its themes and the way it handles its characters’ development. I really can’t praise it enough. It will never be as popular as demon slayer, even if I personally believe it’s more deserving. But I cannot say it’s better as an objective fact because the subject is so subjective.
Though, I will agree that there are some fundamental storytelling issues. I wrote about them a little bit in another comment somewhere.
The sad truth is that it gets carried by God tier animation studio. No one talks about the manga and it's weird pacing and sometimes amateur paneling
I cannot believe people are still saying this cope to this day.
If that were true, then why -long after S1 had ended, with S2 nowhere in sight- was the manga breaking every single manga sales record possible? Why did it shatter records that were thought to be impossible to break, given population demographics?
If nobody cares about the story, or characters, or the emotions, if all anyone cares about is the animation... then why did the manga sell record breaking numbers again and again and again right till it finished?
Do manga sales typically follow hype or quality of writing more often? That doesn't mean something hype is unworthy of top sales, but it would be ridiculous to ignore the amount of slop isekai and shounen that top the charts seasonally.
It's a situation where it makes sense for his character that the fight is lame and underwhelming, but at the same time the fight is still lame and boring. I'm not saying you have to give him insane skills and new fighting styles, but making the last fight of the series the worst by far and dragging it out for so long does not make for a satisfying ending even if it works for the character.
That’s a fair opinion but also completely subjective. I found the fight fitting and compelling. Personally, I think if the character who had been so desperately clawing onto life for so long went down any easier that it would undermine the point. Him scrambling to survive and pulling out every stop is something I enjoyed. I can see how others might not enjoy it but that isn’t an issue with quality or logic, it’s an issue with preference. My point here was why I think it fundamentally fits.
I like your description.
Muzan was never meant to be cool. He does seem similar to "All For One" in "My Hero Academia" where beneath the villainous bravado, he is ultimately using fear to cover up a lie--his physical issues.
Most villains are like this in general. It’s just hard to see when they’re winning most of the time.
Aizen and Thanos come to mind.
My problem with Demon Slayer in general is that the author, by prioritizing spectacle, created a power imbalance between the two sides, forcing the villain to act in a rather convenient way, like the villains in 90s action movies (I always say replacing Muzan with someone of average intelligence and Nakime would be more than enough to wipe out the Demon Slayer Corps). This prevents me from truly enjoying the heroes' victories because they rely on a mountain of plot conveniences, and I can't see them as meritorious.
I can see your point with this, and I definitely think the writing in a lot of the narrative leaves much to be desired. However, I don’t think the writing problem lies within the antagonist in this situation. I actually think it’s the writing around him that’s lacklustre. Which is exactly why the common critique of Muzan specifically grates me a little - because I think Muzan and Kokushibo were the best part of the writing - as controversial as that is.
Incompetency is a perfectly fair balancing tool as long as it makes sense for the character - which in Muzan’s case, I would argue it does. The problem, I think, comes from the characters not acknowledging and using it actively. They do sometimes - for instance Kagaya and Tamayo do it a bit. However, it’s under-utilised and more often than not, his cowardice and incompetence effects the plot passively which leads to it feeling unearned.
If, for example, the main cast figured out his weakness then started actively trying to plan with his fear in mind, and use it against him, that would feel a lot less bullshit and I think it’s be more interesting too. Especially since they do have a window to find out about it through Tamayo - she even outright calls him a coward, but it’s just not really addressed by the characters it should be addressed by.
Essentially I think Muzan’s writing is actually pretty good but it’s not utilised in the way I think it should be. Muzan isn’t the issue, the way the other characters are written to react to him is.
Again, apologies if this has typos or anything. I’m just replying on my phone while out of the house.
I understand, my problem wouldn't be with the character idea itself, but rather that it's too obvious that it's there to facilitate the resolution of the plot, also because the hunter corps has an attitude that is too dependent on Muzan's mistakes, almost as if Kagaya had read the script.
But that's not really what happens at all, Muzan doesn't follow as the plot dictates, he acts completely consistent with the character that's established for him since the start.
He never gets the idiot ball, or makes a convenient choice, every choice he makes (right or wrong) is understandable from his perspective with his own aims in mind.
Personally, I'd say Demon Slayer avoids a lot of the issues with victories you're talking about because we see just how hard fought and just how much the heroes have to sacrifice to achieve them.
Instead of something like say JJK where people can go up against Sukuna and 99% of the time be perfectly fine (even Higurama somehow...), going up against any Demon, especially the Upper Moons and most especially Muzan is guaranteed deadly for every member of the cast.
Nobody gets away for free, nobody gets through it unscathed. The victories feel earned because the cost to achieve them is staggering.
I cannot agree , the victories of the Hunter Corps are based mostly on Muzan acting in an extremely convenient way, on Tanjiro constantly acquiring plot benefits such as last-minute power-ups, talking to the dead, and for some reason inherited memories (in addition to Nezuko being a walking plot device).Supposedly intelligent characters like Kagaya or Shinobu make plans that depend on factors beyond their control and could fail in a million different ways—in other words, a plan devised by someone who knows the script, not as an inhabitant of the story's world.... etc
Of these, I can only agree with Tanjiro's power ups.
Shinobu's plan depend on outside factors because it's the only option she has and she's not confident she can do it any other way.
Kagaya's plan is quite simple. After realizing that Muzan would be coming, the plan was simply to blow up Muzan to weaken him, and then delay him until sunrise. At the time he had no way to know about Nakime, so to him, every factor was already taken into account. Additionally, even if the plan had failed disastrously, Muzan still loses because Kagaya's son has escaped, likely like important documents, and there were Demon Slayers not caught by Nakime. This wouldn't be the first time the corps were near destruction and they'd simply rebuild. Plus, Muzan was aiming for Nezuko, who would already have been turned human, putting conquering sunlight out of Muzan's grasp.
Muzan's actions, were, from Muzan's point of view, completely logical and consistent and I can not agree that it was "dumb" because that's a judgment you make using outside information. Using information that Muzan had, he always used equal or greater than necessary firepower. But this loops back to Tanjiro's power ups which I do not fault Muzan for.
>Kagaya's plan is quite simple. After realizing that Muzan would be coming, the plan was simply to blow up Muzan to weaken him,
Muzan uses his pocket dimension (one of the most broken and versatile powers in fiction) with a 30-minute reasoning process, and the hunter corps is completely wiped out. (Not to mention the other hundred tactical advantages he conveniently chooses not to use.)
>Shinobu's plan depend on outside factors because it's the only option she has and she's not confident she can do it any other way.
Shinobu, although I loved the character, I can't consider her intelligent (or any other character in the series, for that matter) because she poisoned herself for years without a realistic way to locate Douma. In other words, she was completely dependent on factors beyond her control. Not to mention the long list of plot conveniences in her plan once she dies. The flaw in Shinobu's writing is that an intelligent character can only be written by an author who is also a genius. I realized instantly upon reading the chapter how terrible her plan was, but after a year of planning, she didn't realize it. Does that mean I'm a super-genius or that she has below-average intelligence in her actions?
Shinobu is intelligent in the same way as Bulma from Dragon Ball: she can perform magic, which the author calls science, but she doesn't demonstrate it through her actions.
Unclear what your rebuttal to Muzan's point was.
Yes, he had a dimension (but it's also not his). But Kagaya didn't know about it so you really can't use it to judge Kagaya's plan.
In Muzan's case, he had already been marking Demon Slayers. The whole plan was to take all the demon slayers and lock them in the Infinity Castle to wipe out in one go, and during the final battle, about 60% had been marked.
Was it a mistake? Maybe. But if you lock him and his Upper Moons and his pseudo-Lower Moons into the Infinity Castle without having been poisoned, it's guaranteed that Muzan wins.
As for Shinobu, her plan was simple. Turn herself into a big walking poison and if she ever lost against Doma and gets eaten, she has a decent chance of trading one for one. What was the flaw in this plan? At worst, she doesn't run into Doma and gets eaten by another demon, but any demon that manages to eat her is still one that's worth poisoning. It wasn't her fault that Doma happened to be so strong that her poison only succeeded in weakening her. The infused poison was only a backup plan in case her other poisons don't work.
At this point, I suppose it's like talking to a brick wall for both of us. I consider almost all of Muzan's writing terrible, while you're going to defend the author's choices. As for Shinobu, many have given me the same defense, and I don't buy it. It's obvious Gotouge adores Shinobu, portraying her as precise and intelligent, and I don't buy it. With her characterization, she clings to a plan that could have failed (and should have) in a million ways, and in the process, kills her little sister. Shinobu's entire character revolves around being a sister and her revenge against Kanae's killer. The "At worst, she doesn't run into Doma and get eaten by another demon" argument strikes me as a cheap excuse from the fans. I don't buy what you're saying because Gotogue's many writing shortcomings lead me to believe that everything we're discussing stems from his flaws as a writer and the lack of planning in his story. He simply got stuck in a dead end and looked for easy solutions. Finally, HxH SPOILER: I consider the Chimera arc to be Dragon Ball Super if it were well-written: Netero's plan is Shinobu's plan, which works because of the character's actions, not the script; Knov's dimension is used as a pocket dimension should be used; and in general, the confrontation between two enemies with a vast disparity in power is developed very intelligently and creatively. You should read it if you haven't already.
Dragon Ball Super?
Anyways, agree to disagree. I consider the author's writing much better than many give her credit for.
You criticize Shinobu's plan, but as I have said, it was the best she could do other than slipping a human drug into it as well. Logically, it works fine, and thematically, it's even better.
No victory was guaranteed and neither was the one against Douma. Perhaps it would have led Kanao to her death, but considering how desperation and the fragility of human life was always a factor in the manga, Kanao's possible death is not a flaw.
DS= demon slayer, soy hispano parlante y el autocorrector me lo corrigió de manera automatica com dragon ball.
DS = demon slayer, I am a Spanish speaker and the autocorrect automatically corrected it to dragon ball.
>You criticize Shinobu's plan, but as I have said, it was the best she could do other than slipping a human drug into it as well. Logically, it works fine, and thematically, it's even better.
Well, this is where, if you're a literary genius, you come up with a unique and creative solution. For mortal humans, Gotegue could have better framed the conflict to create more parity and avoid having to fix everything with plot conveniences and deus ex machina. Or, the simplest and laziest option is to leave everything as it is and use excuses: include a panel stating that Shinobu, instead of waiting for the world to adapt to her advantage, is actively searching for her prey, and then later in the story mention that she has several plans because, being intelligent, she considered various possible scenarios, without explaining what they are.
>No victory was guaranteed and neither was the one against Douma. Perhaps it would have led Kanao to her death, but considering how desperation and the fragility of human life was always a factor in the manga, Kanao's possible death is not a flaw.
The issue is that it's not a possible death, but an almost certain one with the information she has available, but again Shinobu acts as if Gotogue had given her a copy of the script.If they encountered Douma because the universe aligned in her favor, they would both die almost at the same instant, and the whole plan to weaken Douma would be ruined. In other words, even under ideal conditions, it's a terrible plan.
Am I supposed to believe that Kano would simply stand and let he eat Shibobu if someone didn't conveniently separate them and then reunite them at the exact moment like Gotogue did in the Infinite Castle? Again, the plan can only work if the writer forces it to work.
Tbh muzan was very very weak due to gojo and yujis soul punches. He still killed characters like choso
You mean Sukuna?
Aah my bad
Yeah I can relate to this.
there's nothing worse then incompetent badguys you are supposed to take seriously. it just brings everyone down.
It's worse when the villain is repeatedly incompetent because you already know the tension is artificial, but the story insists on making you care, and that can break the immersion.
I think you did a good job, mostly (have never seen Demon Slayer) but yeah this seems fair?
Haha thank you for reading my little mini essay even if you haven’t read the source material. :)
Rather than fine I'd say that's pretty much the entire point.
Muzan's attempts at being a badass aura farmer are constantly undone by his selfishness, his short-sightedness and his incompetence.
He didn't want to create any more Demons because he didn't want anyone except him to be special, yet, if he'd made more he almost certainly would have won. Even just another Upper Moon would have put victory out of reach. Even just not killing off all the Lower Moons likely would have made it impossible for the Demon Slayers to reach him.
I was trying to bait a bit with that title (mb) but yes that is what I was trying to get at. I agree with you.
Why would the Lower Moons even be relevant? At the time that Muzan killed the Lower Moons, the trio was already nearing the point of killing them solo with some effort. The Hashiras just need to look in their general direction and they explode (exaggeration), and probably some of the Kinoe can kill them with a bit of difficulty.
By the time we reach the end of the Manga, after 4 months of intense training, we have multiple nameless Slayers who can match Lower Moon strength demons (even if they might be weaker than real Lower Moons), such as people on the level of Murata.
In hindsight, Muzan killing the Lower Moons probably made the battle closer than it should have been. Imagine if he didn't. Tanjiro collects a few more samples of Upper/Lower Moon blood and Tamayo+Shinobu complete the human drug ahead of time, and instead of only having 2-3 doses by the final battle, they have 30 doses.
Then, as soon as Muzan appears, he gets injected with 10 doses. As soon as an Upper Moon appears, they get injected with 5.
I think u/AlternateAccount66 put it the best here:
This characters in general are just not groundbreaking or deep, which is fine but people insist on it being a complex piece of fiction.
The sad truth is that it gets carried by God tier animation studio. No one talks about the manga and it's weird pacing and sometimes amateur paneling
I believe a story can be great without being groundbreaking, as long as the execution is good. The problem with DS is that there isn't much development, neither in the world nor in the characters. What you see in their first appearance is all there is to it, and when a character supposedly changes, it's like flipping a switch without any prior build-up.
It feels uninspired while clearly being inspired by past anime, everything interesting about it happens at the intro-first training arc.
After that, the potential character growth, flaws, mystery and horror of demons fades like paper in water. Supporting cast either never evolve or are deeply trite and annoying like Zenitsu. Nezuko loses her emotional weight and Tanjiro is the most boring goody-two-shoes, only flaw is he is too formal and can't insta win every conflict.
If they leaned into the popcorn flick aspect of the show and were more subtle on the almost inane moral sob scenes of the demons I would have no problems. Like Samurai Jack feels less cheesey than this
If I had to describe my experience, it almost felt like I'd watched a summary of a longer series. Although, again, I don't think borrowing elements from other series is a bad thing; Akira Kurosawa's "Throne of Blood" is one of the best films ever made and is basically Magbeth in feudal Japan.
Borrowing is natural and unavoidable, but being average at the same time is my issue
Well, Inosuke slowly changes throughout the story and it's sprinkled everywhere he appears
Yeah, Inosuke and Genya are usually the characters that people like, even those who think DS is bad. But, like Zenitsu, he's been around for a long time, but the author only uses him as a comedic and action character until he pulls the whole connection to his fight in the Infinite Castle out of nowhere.
Not really, he was plenty brave, WHILE awake, in ED arc when he stopped Daki from abusing the little girl, knowing exactly what level of a demon she was.
So, it wasn't all a sudden switch flip. It was somewhat sudden, but it wasn't a 0 - 100
First of all, what you're saying about Inosuke and Zenitsu is the bare minimum I'd expect from a supporting character, and they fall far short of being part of the main group. It's like there's a huge gap between our standards. Not to mention the terrible handling of the whole master/senpai thing, which comes out of nowhere at the last moment, develops OFF-SCREEN, and is resolved with an asspull, only for Zenitsu to suffer a character regression at the end.
Inosuke was NOT a bare minimum, he was a pretty good character.
Zenitsu could have been a lot better but he was not a 0-100 switch flip as you like to insinuate. I am just pointing out your flawed description.
Men need to consume better fiction. Inosuke as a character is echoed many times and in a better way.
Nope Zenitsu was a complete switch, basically he's three characters in one and the author uses him as he sees fit.
Now it's just goalpost moving. So what if there are better characters like him? That's not my point. My point is your initial description is wrong. Inosuke is a character who grows throughout the story. Zenitsu is not a 0-100 switch flip since he is shown to be brave before the flip whenever he needs to protect something he values. You are talking as if Zenitsu switched from his day 1 personality where he fainted in front of a kid he was supposed to protect all the way to his Kaigaku fight personality.
All I am saying is if you are gonna criticize something, at least be correct instead of generalizing "What you see in their first appearance is all there is to it, and when a character supposedly changes, it's like flipping a switch without any prior build-up."
This is the problem with Demon Slayer critics. Most of them don't inherently respect it and hence when they criticize it, you don't bother with the specifics and generalize the tropes it has in the worst way possible
I suppose you could say that each person considers what's sufficient in both Zenitsu and Inosuke's writing. For me, what you mention simply isn't enough because those are elements I've already seen executed far better in several other works.
The moments you highlight so much about Zenitsu seem like nothing to me; they are so few that at least what I would expect from a secondary character, not a main one.
Where exactly do you find people saying it's complex, the majority of people do think it's executed in a simple way and that doesn't mean it's bad. Complex doesn't always mean great or good. DBZ is super iconic and it's not complex.
Also the manga is talked about. You're just not in that space where it's talked about
It's the Internet and it's a wildly popular anime, a lot of people cling onto it because they are emotionally attached to characters or the story. And when someone criticizes it, people defend and oversell it in response.
Also, I've been a Dragon Ball fan since I was a baby, I know how delusional those people can be.
Also I never explicitly said that it was bad, just that it wasn't as deep as people who defend it say.
And I've read the manga as far as season 2 ends, it wasn't exceptional and the popularity of the show is indisputably carried by animation and art.
It's the internet anything that gets criticized will be defended by someone. That applies to anything
Also one point of the anime is to bring more awareness to the work so of course the popularity would sky rocket.
Not everyone is into manga or is aware of its existence. And if the manga truly was terrible it wouldn't be selling as much as it was but yet it's been breaking records here and there.
And none of that speaks to the actual quality of a product, once again, isekai slop took over the world and 2k sells crazy every year.
It's just not exceptional media, but that's not bad. Well, I believe plenty of other artworks should be promoted but that's not my decision and anything with mass appeal is almost always going to be shallow in terms of themes and character arcs.
I read Naruto as it came out all the way to the end, that shit was often not quality enough for it's numbers but that doesn't mean I think it's holistically bad.
This feels like you’re arguing with me in bad faith here. It doesn’t really address anything I wrote about.
Yeah, I mean it's my opinion that I decided to express as an addendum to the greater arguments people have about character writing in this book.
I'm not necessarily arguing against you, just stating that I think the problems of the book is its shallowness
I don’t think it’s as simple as having complexity or not having complexity. There are shades of grey between a children’s story and Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein. Still, even children’s stories can be broken down and analysed. I think most stories are more complex than they initially let on, and all art can be read into. No matter how a writer tells a story, they make conscious and subconscious decisions that reflect their worldview. Whether you enjoy it or not is completely personal preference but since art is so subjective it is very difficult to define the line between complex and not complex. I could make a case for Muzan being an allegory for unwanted childbirth but whether that’s true or not is not something you or I could ever know without speaking to the creator, and I honestly think it’s best that way. Art fuels art. Varying interpretations and opinions are very human, and very cool. I don’t think boiling it down to being completely flat is entirely fair.
I agree on many points, my focus is moreso on tangible writing that comes from the author rather than an individual's interpretation or extrapolation of said art.
I can appreciate the anime in the sense that it leads people to want more from storytelling in comparison to the average anime at the moment that is more focused on you becoming addicted to homogeneous character design, juvenile humor and disturbing sexualization of youth.
Those are points I can understand and agree with. Personally, I enjoyed the contrast of a completely selfless character willing to do anything - even die - to kill a completely selfish character who’s only goal is to not die. It’s simple in concept, but I enjoy it. I also really liked the baby symbolism. I genuinely found characters like Kokushibo, Tamayo and Muzan compelling, even if it isn’t my favourite work of all time. Which is why I recommend it to people who I think would like it.
One of my favourite medias ever is a music video series called Milgram. It’s incredibly underrated for the depth it goes into with its themes and the way it handles its characters’ development. I really can’t praise it enough. It will never be as popular as demon slayer, even if I personally believe it’s more deserving. But I cannot say it’s better as an objective fact because the subject is so subjective.
Though, I will agree that there are some fundamental storytelling issues. I wrote about them a little bit in another comment somewhere.
I cannot believe people are still saying this cope to this day.
If that were true, then why -long after S1 had ended, with S2 nowhere in sight- was the manga breaking every single manga sales record possible? Why did it shatter records that were thought to be impossible to break, given population demographics?
If nobody cares about the story, or characters, or the emotions, if all anyone cares about is the animation... then why did the manga sell record breaking numbers again and again and again right till it finished?
Do manga sales typically follow hype or quality of writing more often? That doesn't mean something hype is unworthy of top sales, but it would be ridiculous to ignore the amount of slop isekai and shounen that top the charts seasonally.
It's a situation where it makes sense for his character that the fight is lame and underwhelming, but at the same time the fight is still lame and boring. I'm not saying you have to give him insane skills and new fighting styles, but making the last fight of the series the worst by far and dragging it out for so long does not make for a satisfying ending even if it works for the character.
That’s a fair opinion but also completely subjective. I found the fight fitting and compelling. Personally, I think if the character who had been so desperately clawing onto life for so long went down any easier that it would undermine the point. Him scrambling to survive and pulling out every stop is something I enjoyed. I can see how others might not enjoy it but that isn’t an issue with quality or logic, it’s an issue with preference. My point here was why I think it fundamentally fits.
Geez what was this removed for?