Now in my last post here about shippers, I said that a majority of powerscalers were reasonable and knew their hobby was dumb at the end of the day... I can admit that I am a fucking liar.
People in the powerscaling community genuinely think some characters scales o much higher than what they should. What I mean by that is there is no reason why some characters are scaled so much higher than what the setting is soft-capped at.
For example, JJK light-speed. There are people who genuinely think that anybody in JJK gets to light-speed. Listen, even IF someone in that setting scaled to light-speed, almost everything else in the narrative points to that just not being true. Naoya being such a threat at mach 3 and Maki scaling to Yuji and Yuta, GEGE HIMSELF saying that the verse caps at mach 3, Choso's PB being at mach 1 and is considered to be a major threat in verse.
You can even take this to Jojo's. Now I admit, I have not watched JJBA, but from the little I know, people in that verse are generally humans that have abilities from their stands, being all hax and no stats. Since they're human, regular humans there is no way that any of them could scale to light-speed anything because they simply can't react to those things without their abilities. However, let me know if I'm wrong with this one.
Basically, before you go to scale anything, ask this simple question: Does this character/ this scaling make sense within the context of the story, or am I just glazing?
You are spot on about the vibes of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. The vibes of Jojo's is that it is a series where catching or deflecting a bullet is impressive but manageable for top-tier stands. Anything that moves faster gets called out explicitly.
Jojo's has one explicitly light-speed stand, the Hanged Man. It's literally a photon and moves at lightspeed between reflective surfaces. The entire point of the hanged man fight is that it is too fast for Silver Chariot and Hierophant Green to attack; they need to isolate its trajectory and force it to move at a specific time to beat it. Some people use this fight as evidence of ftl speed in Jojo's. They are wrong. Just before this fight, Silver Chariot fought a stand that was literally just a gun that could control its bullets after they fired. This fight establishes Silver Chariot as fast enough to cut a bullet, but not fast enough to recover and try again if the bullet moves out of the way of his sword. And yet people will still say Silver Chariot is ftl because it hit an exact light speed stand ( under very specific circumstances, otherwise it moved so fast they never even tried to attack it).
Two other stands are ftl because they can stop time: the World and Star Platinum. They have too many anti-feats and narrative inconsistencies to consider them ftl outside of when they explicitly stop time, but people will still argue that they are naturally ftl.
One stand, made in heaven, can explicitly accelerate to ftl speeds. It needs time to accelerate, though, and beats multiple top-tier stands well before reaching ftl speeds.
There is one event in Part 7 that people point to as ftl. I won't get into for spoiler reasons but its not a speed feat its because of gravity nonsense.
Also watch JJBA it's good.
TLDR: There are far too many scenes where guns are a threat or used to establish speed, and few to none where light is used similarly. The vibes are not gelling with ftl scaling in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.
THANK YOU. I thought I was suffering from reading incomprehension or something because I didn't get where all of those LS statements came from, when Made In Heaven moving at bullet train (if my memeory serves right) speed was already a stump for frickin Jotato
One of these events is an outlier that should be discarded, the speed necessary to accurately cut a photon, even if you know its trajectory, is so absurd that cutting a bullet that suddenly changes its direction should be a joke, the same goes in reverse as well.
Iirc in the manga its not specific about him starting the swing after the light moves like what happens in the anime. Its implied he starts swinging before Hanged Man moves, knowing his blade will collide in mid air
It doesn't matter, this would definitely decrease the raw speed required but it would still be orders of magnitude about what you need to change your swing direction when a bullet changes its trajectory
Why? If you just put your blade in the trajectory of hanged man that would require 0 movement at all, so just scale it up by a little bit and you have the same premise
You don't need to just put your blade in the way, you need to actually cut the hanged man with a swing.
Its moving at light speed. Relativity states movement is relative. You're cutting it at light speed by just holding your blade in its path
Pedantry aside the point is he starts his swing before hanged man moves, and times it so that right as he jumps to another reflection, he collides with Polnareff's blade mid swing. You wouldn't need to be light speed for that because the whole point is you start your swing beforehand
By that logic, Hanged Man would have died a thousand times over when he would jump between reflective surfaces because he would collide into them at lightspeed before bouncing.
So does normal light but it doesnt break. But again ignore that and look at my second comment, point remains
Normal light can't "break" though. And having the reaction and movement speed necessary to swing your sword in order to hit moving light is still orders to magnitude above bullet slicing.
He forced Hanged man to move towards his blade and cut himself in half.
ERM,... ACTUALLY, It has 2!!
When Red Hot Chilli Pepper absorb electricity it becomes overall stronger, after absorbing electricity from Morioh's Electrical Grid it become as fast as light.... Through wires ofc.
I swear I’ve seen this exact title before
https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/s/99MtxIUUYo
Found this(theres so many posts on power scaling in this sub that i cba to go through them all)
It’s probably this post you saw. No offense to the OP.
I think I realized this several years back when I saw a calc of kid Sasuke, at the very start of Naruto, being like city block level because his Fireball Jutsu melted away some dirt or something
Tbh, this is how I do a majority of my scaling, and if something doesn't seem right, then I'll probably check other sources, but yeah, going based off of vibes is a pretty simple way to avoid excessive glazing.
Sidenote: With the exception of special stands (like a certain one in Part 6), most stand users are threatened by guns throughout JJBA, and that kinda debunks FTL JJBA characters imo.
Same goes for One Piece fans believing that their verse is light-speed even though everyone in it travels on boats.
ok I don't usually push ftl one piece but tbf.... kizaru does exist
It mentions that he can go at light speed, not faster than light speed. Also, that's probably only when he does the "travel in a straight line via laser beam" thing.
Yeah but all the ftl arguments are usually about characters managing to stop Kizaru who is light speed. Course they also tend to forget that a lot of those people have high level Observation Haki and can start moving based on prediction instead of just having to react and be ftl.
Gege is more then likely attended to cap out at Mach 3 being the highest speeds (only possible exception is the obv 2). These are literal speedsters in the verse and the most Human Naoya can go is like around Mach 1. Cursed Naoya’s whole speed deal of him being so fast is through that Mach 3 speed being so impressive, PB which is continuously noted to be very fast is stated to be above subsonic. I severely doubt the author intended for any of the characters to be lightspeed ima be real. I agree with ya OP on this one
I don’t read with feats in mind, but I’m almost positive Jotaro has some reaction feats irrespective of his stand that would imply superhuman reaction time. Not FTL, but like probably good enough to put his reaction time as super human.
But I completely agree with the greater part of your post. 99.9% of writers aren’t cracking open physics books to think about the implications of what their characters are doing. Captain America dodges bullets because he’s pretty fast. Spider-Man dodges lightning cause he’s a decent bit faster than that. Flash dodges basically everything because he’s a whole lot faster than that. That’s about as concrete as most writers are gonna get. FTL, MFTL, Omniversal+. These are not things writers think about
Pretty sure that's just him channeling SP through himself, like when he used it to draw the image of the fly perfectly
Every single character in JoJo's has insane reaction times and information processing speeds. You get bullshit like Joseph looking at the ash outline of a city map out of his peripheral vision for less than second, perfectly memorizing it, realizing where in the city he is, and navigating to a specific location while being mortally attacked by a Stand attached to his arm. Every single character (with the notable exception of Okuyasu) just by virtue of having to engage in Stand fights where every single move is a 4th Dimensional chess maneuver is operating on an hyper-exaggerated portrayal of human brain power.
Actually he specifically mentions human reaction time to bullet trains during MiH which would be weird if he could eclipse that.
For the Jojo thing, there are autonomous jojo stands that work without their stand user needing to think about them (Gold Experience Requiem's owner doesn't even know it exists). But I generally agree that any controlled stand should generally be considered to be constrained by human reaction times.
theres a joke in here about how you began to mention JJK and then immediately used the word “if”’in all caps when referring to the characters potential (lol) to reach light speed but I’m unfortunately not smart enough to tie it all together
Megumi potential man reference? btw I wonder if mahoraga can somehow achieve lightspeed with the right adaptations
from what i understand mahoraga isnt like doomsday in the sense where he can basically infinitely adapt. he has a limit. im a true jjk fan in the sense i never read the manga (i watch the show) but from what i understand, mahagora had to be babysitted by sukuna in the gojo fight because gojo could pretty much one tap it if it had to fend for itself. it likely can adapt its speed to go faster but at some point it would just be too much
Isn't part of it also tied to the wheel? Like it gets so many turns off adaptation in a summoning before it can't anymore?
It could be one shot because it hadn't adapted. Sukuna babysits it to give it time to adapt. Gojo has 4 different types of attacks, all of which need to be adapted to, and his defensive barrier, so Mahoraga just needed time. Once its adapted we currently have no reason to believe it has any limits
It can adapt to anything, the reason why Gojo could still kill it is because his technique provides him with multiple forms of atack. Blue, Red and Purple need to be adapted to seperatly.
I feel like one of the things to add onto this is how the types of powerscaling conversations have changed over time and what to my mind was always one of the most fun parts gets basically thrown to the way side. So for starters so many posts now don't focus on specific pairings or match ups but these open ended questions where they mash something crazy like 5 different IP universes into a list and then ask people to throw out characters who can challenge it. The problem with that is you have to start establishing what your rules of engagement between the universes are and the more you add the harder that gets.
Trying to figure out the most fair and interesting RoE for match ups is to my mind one of the most fun parts of power scaling and a place where you get most of your nuance in it. It also tends to be an area that is ruled by understanding of that universes power systems and not by trying to make specific feats into math so you can prove something is better.
As an example two universes that feel like they should have a decent level of match up with each other would be HxH and JJBA. Right off the bat you have to establish if Nen users can see Stands. In the interests of having an entertaining match up the answer needs to be yes but you can make it more interesting by making it a "yes but" and saying they can see them but they need to be using the Gyo nen technique to enhance their sight similar to how it has to be done to see the advanced use of certain other Nen techniques. That automatically means that while they can see it they also need to either be of a level that they constantly maintain a level of focus to enhance their sight or notice something happening to even realize they need to check if a stand is present. That then flips over to the second major rule to establish which is since Nen allows a user to see Stands how can a nen user interact with a stand and what does that mean? Is someone using Ten and Ren automatically granted a level of protection from the abilities of any stand? Do stand users have a level of protection against Nen based abilities because Nen is supposedly devastating to anybody not protected by their own Nen?
Hashing out those kinds of interactions between the universes makes it really interesting in my opinion. Especially since some of the answers can drastically change up how a battle goes beyond just raw numbers of sheer power. That's where OPs vibes come in I think, you have to feel out those interactions between universes and actually talk about it with others to see their opinions too.
I agree, and also think that more specifications like which version of a character (or point in their story) and the circumstances of the battle make things much more interesting and clear to talk about. Like “Spider-Man vs Captain America” is so vague, but “PS Spider-Man (regular suit) vs MCU Captain America (Infinity War) in Dodger’s Stadium, clear weather” gives so much more to work with and talk about, and a higher likelihood of a clear probable victor.
"Does this character/ this scaling make sense within the context of the story, or am I just glazing?"
I am not going to change my scaling because the author fucked up by having a regular human dodge a lightning bolt and broke the entire consistency of the story.
No thanks, Harry Potter is canonically FTL by age 14
Downplaying
Holy shit, I took a 5 ish year break from Reddit, but this brings back so many memories of that Voldemort wanker. Never would have thought about this again in my life if you hadn't sent this. Thanks for trip down memory lane
'Voldemort clears Star Wars universe'
I am not going to change my scaling and assume the lightning bolt is moving as fast as a real lightning bolt either.
Dumb. Lightning isn't the speed of light to begin with. Also dumb, because every author who has ever had lightning powers in their world have fucked it up.
The way lightning works, it should always be a hit, or one of the easiest things to dodge. If the character has a tell, it should be very easily dodged. If it has no tell, it should be actually impossible to dodge.
Using real life to explain fictional power, in explicitly and purposefully unrealistic media will never lead you to objectivity.
Entirely truth, fact checked by counterwank service
This, it makes the most sense, especially when comparing verses. One being a deity or some high ranking character in a verse would likely translate to a similar powerlevel / importance in the other.
To compare Saint Seiya and Bleach some would probably bring out Calcs and lengthy analysis, but I think it's obvious that Captains = Gold Saints for example, they're both a group of 12 warriors protecting the world / universe and have very similar powersets.
Yamamoto from Bleach being the strongest in the afterlife and capable of burning the entire world with his power if he keeps it more than 5 minutes for me makes him rank at least up with the likes of Frieza and Super Saiyan Goku if the verses were to be compared, I just know his relevance would let him fight the strongest from other planets. He can also turn the scenery of the planet into collapsing lava like Frieza did to Namek, that's good enough.
Just add some feats and narrative to the vibes, it's probably the way a real Vs. battle would be written by the mangaka.
The One Piece power scaling sub is some of the most boring, pedantic discussions I have ever seen on Reddit. Why do they even bother reading One Piece?
They not only explicitly will not do that- they insist a writer can't make a character weaker: can't depict them weaker and can't WoG them weaker.
It's a one way trip unless they really don't like a series.
Over quantification of something that was always vibes is the worst part of powerscaling
In Jojo, when time is stopped they’re moving at light speed. Because it’s literally the definition of light speed: Going so fast you don’t move through time.
But without abilities they’re shown to be going at regular sexy man speed
[deleted]
Can you pull up proof for that?
If we go in vibes alone, we end up in bizarre cases like JRPG final bosses.
The Final Bosses are bad, apocalyptic entities who, if you lose, its the end of reality.
From a classic like Artemisia from FF8, where losing to her leads to the entire time-axis going boom and where getting knocked out means you get erased from time (because in the previous of the fight, it was sort of implied your cast became existences of pure will to survive).
But then Squall's normal deal is fighting monsters and mechas.
The canonical answer is that engame Squall's team is obviously amped for the whole Time Compression as much as Ultimecia /Artemicia, but then go to the Super Bosses and they're just as strong as her but Squall can beat them with no issues.
So vibes is clearly NOT enough
Now don't get me wrong, ultimately feats triumph all. But feats can be interpreted in many ways.
Let's put a example...
Imagine, destroying a universe. But...what is a Universe? We mean just the physical matter that exist which is actually finite? The entire all 12 dimensions? the 3 dimensions we perceive?
I dont think this is that contradictory. A tumour can kill an elephant, but it doesn't scale that high. You can kill it with chemicals, ice or a knife. This is the fundamental issue with scaling. Something being capable of killing something doesnt mean its on a certain level. A being being able to destroy the universe doesnt mean it contains more power than all the energy in a universe. Its just that its existence is uniquely harmful to the universes existence through its magic
That's part of the main reason I call Viltrumites small (key word = small) planet busters. They just have all the vibes and implications other planet busters have, the difference is there is context to the Viltrum explosion
It's part of why I look at normie takes on YT. They don't overthink it to lowball or highball. Just "oh these guys can obliterate the upper hemisphere, cool."
Who is this youtuber "normie takes"? And could u send the channel link to me.
Not a specific person
Never mind, looked it up and ik what it is know.
But according to VSBW chainscaling this character with no superhuman feats has multi galaxy AP and durability, immeasurable speed and hyperversal range, it must be true. /s
JJK LS has only been used for 2-3 people. Gojo ( top2 verse), Sukuna( Top1 in verse), and MBA Kashimo( i've only seen it be used for his attack speed). i remember seeing people try to use Kashimo vs Hakari as support for it as well but considering i don't see it anywhere i think people just dropped it.
what chapter did he say this in?
2 characters capable of low diffing there verse while not even using their CT's + the dude stated by the narrator to be using EM waves
Nah.
Sage Naruto > KCM1 Naruto because Sage Naruto beat Pain and KCM1 Naruto couldn't beat Nagato.
Itachi can keep up with Minato in terms of speed because he was able to keep up with KCM1, and KCM1 Naruto is faster than the Raikage who could keep up with Minato, which means that Itachi > Minato
Also Obito chose to invade the leaf after Itachi dies, which means that Itachi can solo the rest of the Akatsuki
Also Hokage Naruto is afraid of Hinata, which means that Hinata is stronger than Madara and the Akatsuki
Also Kakashi beat war arc Obito, who Beat KCM2 Naruto as well as beating the entire shinobi alliance including Kakashi alongside Madara, which means that Kakashi by himself is stronger than the entire shinobi alliance
Also Kakuzu is stronger than Pain because...I can't think of a reason for this one...
This isnt scaling off vibes this is just ignoring context
IK, I was just making fun of how powerscalers take feats and statements absolutely literally instead of acknowledging context, narrative purposes and the fact that feats and statements aren’t meant to be taken literally
Obviously I know that Kakashi by himself is not stronger than the ninja alliance(which included him) because that would make no sense
MACH10 MHA is a much much better example. At least All might is a top tier in comparison to Naoya caping at maybe top 15.
Honestly for me, if you base sone characters on their anime presentation, the animation, sound design, etc. they can feel like they could hang with more powerful characters.
Like, looking at JJK, it isn’t that strong of a verse compared to many others, esp in Shonen, but the animation quality and the sound/visual design of the fights make it seem like they could tango with characters who are scaled way higher.
Nah. Fred the Fish is multiversial because he tanked a hit from Spongebob and Mr. Krabs.
The biggest problem with powerscaling communities is just how they don’t know much about the story’s contexts and jus care about the big ass statements which they take out of context.
"GEGE HIMSELF saying that the verse caps at mach 3" - When did gege say this?
Why is maki and naoya's speed being used as the limit
Im not even try to say jjk characters could be lightspeed or even anywhere near that kind of speed but maki has literally already been outsped