Having worked my entire career through retirement in the Automotive sector, Collision Repair , as an apprentice, journeyman , employee , owner, manager , consultant and lived out of country working, I can attest that there are numerous problems within the Collision industry and its relationship to apprenticeship.
1. Outdated Technical Institutes, equipment, instructor and Facilities
2. Business owners/managers refusing indentureship
3. Poor Federal Government support for apprenticeship. Lack of timely EI and for many trades, no consideration for tooling requirements
4. Poor employment and working conditions, harassment , abuse, mentorship etc.
5. No career path identified. If you're unmotivated , you'll always be a technician.
6. Upgrade training is inconsistent
7. Pay is slow to evolve to equitable levels
Another point to add is preferential hiring - shops are more hesitant to take on pre-employment students (which is understandable). And if an applicant's dad's friend's cousin's dog doesn't go to them same vet as the owners dog, it's difficult to get a spot working on cars, even assisting techs.
It sucked applying to my last shop, being told they're not looking for an apprentice but would take on a detailer with apprenticing being a later consideration...then seeing two first-years get hired after because their families know the owner
I work in trades and am a red seal in my profession. I currently deal with 2 apprentices that can barely spell let alone write. This starts in the elementary and secondary education systems. They’re just pushed through and not taught. Being 20 and not being able to do basic math and spelling without the assistance of a phone is ridiculous. This is why they’re failing.
Until we fix this we don’t want these kids working on anything important. Before you judge keep in mind I want the kids to succeed. But it starts far earlier than post secondary. We need to bring back standards and accountability. Bring back focus to the basics (reading, writing, math) not all this other fluff the provinces and Fed feel we need to cram down their throats.
And they have to WANT to learn the basic skills. I’m more than willing to teach apprentices the math basics (fractions especially seems to be a weak spot) but many don’t want to learn. They think it’s all about turning wrenches and putting in lengths of pipe.
6000 hours is a LOT, that's 3 straight years of being a full time apprentice, and then you need to somehow break away 4x to go to school full time for 3 months. Its actually insanely difficult, at any point along the way you could get pigeon holed in a position at work, get fired, something could happen to your health, something could happen to you family members(something always happens to your family members), or you could just straight up go bankrupt on credit cards during school like me. There needs to be more supports put in place, more grants, and apprentices need to be able to do all their schooling at once so that living arrangements can be made ahead of time.
5 years apprentichip flies by and honestly you need that amount of time to start getting the basics and learn alot through out. You’re constantly learning and always something new.
School is 3x during your apprenticeship and if it’s not through the union..everytime costs you 500-600$ which isn’t anything crazy. That’s not gonna bankrupt you.
The first few years are tough but by 3rd year, the wages for any young kid is mind blowing.
Quit making it sound worse than it actually is.
Edit: forgot to mention you also get $1,000 twice total when completing school.
There’s also loans which are interest free until you get licensed if needed.
That is not good hearing that there is a backlog for getting the essential three sessions of education during the apprenticeship. This should be far more organized and well funded because we genuinely need a lot of capable people. Making them wait on an education component is ridiculous and it means somebody isn’t taking this seriously enough
Take the sessions back to back if possible. I did 3rd and 4th back to back because the way things were going, I knew I would struggle to come back for that last bit of school + the certification exam
For most apprenticeships, the rate of pay is tied to the year of apprenticeship (1st = 50%, 2nd = 60% etc of the journeyman rate). Also, you resign and go on EI to go to school. This makes going to school dangerous for apprentices with insecure employment. A company can easily decide not to hire you back, and you have just made yourself more expensive. Many apprentices avoid going to school so as not to price themselves out of a job.
As someone who has two red seal trades under their belt ( 310s automotive service and 306A plumber/ steamfitter) I am fully convinced that things will never change, its tough being an apprentice, you need an extremely thick skin as well as an open mind/ willingness to learn on the daily. My biggest issue is that skilled trades are still not pushed in school as a viable way to make a living. We are often getting the kids who didn’t do well in school and have no desire to be here, I love to help, but can only do so much. things need to change on a societal level before any meaningful change happens in our trades. Having some of the longest and best apprenticeships in the world, I feel like we should almost be compensated better ( like doctors) that will change society’s perception quickly.
“Bullying and harassment remain persistent in the trades, with people from equity priority groups often leaving because they just don't feel welcome.
She also noted an erosion of employer investment in training and mentorship in general across Canada.”
If we have any hope of building twice as many homes in the coming years, we need more of our experienced trades people to be welcoming and encouraging, not prideful dicks who say things like “Well, people were cruel to me when I was an apprentice.”
The trades are one of the only sectors that DEI identity politics is unable to penetrate. Diversity hires that can't perform will get bullied out of the sector, just like all the white guys who are sub par.
Pay goes up every year I have to account for it on my project budgets. Honestly with hourly pay plus OT I don't know a boiler maker who didnt make 200k a year working nuclear refurbishment jobs at Bruce Power or Darlington
Another thing is that certain trades are being gatekept by instructors because they look down on students that need a little help and view things like accommodation for ADHD, etc. as cheating. I will tell you right now I had my rights violated by a school who refused to give me a separate room for tests when they were available, and also formula sheets for an extremely math heavy course. I have dyscalculia, ADHD, social anxiety etc which affected me badly in school. I passed the course and did well enough on my final, but if I had done better at my course tests with the help I requested, I would have gotten higher than 69% which ultimately failed me in Level 2. :) I switched trades because of this treatment and I was not treated well on the job either because I am a petite woman. My current manager thinks apprentices need to suffer 100% and that toxic mindset is still very much present literally where ever I go
My experience was they allow blatant cheating and push everyone through tradeschool which just sets them up to fail when it comes to the CofQ and being a journeyman in general.
I guess it depends on the trade. There`s only two places to go in the lower mainland for refrigeration, and the one that isn't BCIT is the one that's incredibly stuck up despite being structured horribly.
RTI is great, what are you on about? They are trying to weed out useless people who don't deserve the red seal. The instructors aren't going to hold your hand because you have anxiety, ADHD or other problems. This is way better than schools like VIU which will just give you the answers for an exam or do open book tests. Sounds like you just want the bar to be lowered so you can pass it.
Hahaha... Are you an RTI employee? RTI literally violates the rights of students... THEIR CUSTOMERS. Any student who goes there and asks for accommodation regularly gets refused it and they can file with the Human Rights Tribunal, they`re just too big of pussies to do it or too stupid to know their rights. I am a paying customer and I cannot even use a laptop if it helps me learn. They have to like you to approve you using a laptop. There is a lot wrong with the school. Open up their terms and you'll see right away the students are threatened with getting kicked out for this or that, when they're the ones who paid for the course in the first place.
RTI just wants your money and to not teach you if the opportunity arises. That's why they removed the math requirement, to take advantage of the disadvantaged. The instructors are very knowledgable, but they all have the same toxic mindset as you. That and they are elitist assholes who cram way too much bullshit into the course in the tiniest timeframe so they can claim to be the best, most thorough school--- Only, every single student struggles to retain the knowledge due to the cramming. Every school is required to teach certain subjects by SkilledTradesBC, but RTI wants to teach you more than most can handle in the timeframe given. In the end, RTI actually produces WORSE technicians due to this.
Surely you have noticed attending RTI is harder than the actual exam issued by SkilledTradesBC. That particular school is absolutely designed to gatekeep the trade and fail people as much as possible. They`re all crying right now that the union is full. I don't mind a challenge, but that school literally breaks the law. It is bullshit and you're an ableist. I would have passed the course if they didn't literally discriminate against everyone who isn't like them. it is their behaviour and reaction to my reasonable request for accommodation that created the anxiety. If someone is actively mistreating you who is in control of your future, you're gonna lose a lot of sleep. How well can you learn when you don’t sleep?
Wanna know something? All apprentices in the electrician trade get formula sheets, and that's all I asked for aside from a separate test writing room, which RTI offers to students on paper (but in reality they put you in a room full of other students who want to write in a quiet room so basically it's you and 10 other guys you dont know --- AKA not accommodating whatsoever, just pretending to) THERE ARE NO RULES AGAINST FORMULA SHEETS and with the volume of shit we learn at RTI, it is not holding hands to provide one. I would say they SHOULD provide one, to EVERYONE as standard. Not even accommodation. It is far from hand holding.
Much of what we learn is electricity related you know, and we don't get any formula sheet for that. Thankfully that's my strength and I got over 90% on all electric related shit because oh no I can actually do well at school if I like the topic or had a little help. At the end of the course, maybe the last or 2nd last test, they issued their first ever formula sheet to all students EVER because I went to SkilledTradesBC about their treatment of me and they got in SHIT. SkilledTradesBC also issued me one for my test which I did ok on, just not OK enough because I was barely passing thanks to RTI's shit. SkilledTradesBC did all that for me because RTI is bullshit and they want me to tell them everything about RTI so they can dig in deeper to this injustice of a school. The way RTI treated me made staff at SkilledTradesBC cry because they have disabled family members who they'd be horrified if they were treated as I was. So fuck you.
The dean hated helping students so much, and he hates me so much, he put the four most useless formulas on the sheet and told us we're expelled if we dont hand in this sacred formula sheet at the end of the test and we'll never see one again. He was very unhappy he was forced to do that. Because he's an asshole, and so are you. Literally everyone, BC law, and the governing body of trades in this province agrees with me. Only RTI and scum like you don't. Again, fuck you.
Lastly, I absolutely deserve the red seal and can learn everything I need to know to get it despite my problems. It's RTI's teaching and shitty attitude that ultimately was the problem for me. Be happy your life was so cushy and you can sit behind your computer screen putting others down because they aren't as successful as you. If you lived the life I was given, you might be dead by now.
They are keeping a lot of welders on the floor as wire burners. Make sure you get your cwb and keep it up to date. Unless they are continuously training and testing do not stagnate in one shop for more than 3 years. Keep moving until you're hired as a manager. It's the only way to cut through the masses of idiots they're shipping in
No use doing all the travel and grinding terrible hours in terrible weather half the year for a wage that'll barely make a dent in your cost of living.
Having worked my entire career through retirement in the Automotive sector, Collision Repair , as an apprentice, journeyman , employee , owner, manager , consultant and lived out of country working, I can attest that there are numerous problems within the Collision industry and its relationship to apprenticeship. 1. Outdated Technical Institutes, equipment, instructor and Facilities 2. Business owners/managers refusing indentureship 3. Poor Federal Government support for apprenticeship. Lack of timely EI and for many trades, no consideration for tooling requirements 4. Poor employment and working conditions, harassment , abuse, mentorship etc. 5. No career path identified. If you're unmotivated , you'll always be a technician. 6. Upgrade training is inconsistent 7. Pay is slow to evolve to equitable levels
Another point to add is preferential hiring - shops are more hesitant to take on pre-employment students (which is understandable). And if an applicant's dad's friend's cousin's dog doesn't go to them same vet as the owners dog, it's difficult to get a spot working on cars, even assisting techs.
It sucked applying to my last shop, being told they're not looking for an apprentice but would take on a detailer with apprenticing being a later consideration...then seeing two first-years get hired after because their families know the owner
I work in trades and am a red seal in my profession. I currently deal with 2 apprentices that can barely spell let alone write. This starts in the elementary and secondary education systems. They’re just pushed through and not taught. Being 20 and not being able to do basic math and spelling without the assistance of a phone is ridiculous. This is why they’re failing.
Until we fix this we don’t want these kids working on anything important. Before you judge keep in mind I want the kids to succeed. But it starts far earlier than post secondary. We need to bring back standards and accountability. Bring back focus to the basics (reading, writing, math) not all this other fluff the provinces and Fed feel we need to cram down their throats.
And they have to WANT to learn the basic skills. I’m more than willing to teach apprentices the math basics (fractions especially seems to be a weak spot) but many don’t want to learn. They think it’s all about turning wrenches and putting in lengths of pipe.
6000 hours is a LOT, that's 3 straight years of being a full time apprentice, and then you need to somehow break away 4x to go to school full time for 3 months. Its actually insanely difficult, at any point along the way you could get pigeon holed in a position at work, get fired, something could happen to your health, something could happen to you family members(something always happens to your family members), or you could just straight up go bankrupt on credit cards during school like me. There needs to be more supports put in place, more grants, and apprentices need to be able to do all their schooling at once so that living arrangements can be made ahead of time.
5 years apprentichip flies by and honestly you need that amount of time to start getting the basics and learn alot through out. You’re constantly learning and always something new.
School is 3x during your apprenticeship and if it’s not through the union..everytime costs you 500-600$ which isn’t anything crazy. That’s not gonna bankrupt you.
The first few years are tough but by 3rd year, the wages for any young kid is mind blowing.
Quit making it sound worse than it actually is.
Edit: forgot to mention you also get $1,000 twice total when completing school.
There’s also loans which are interest free until you get licensed if needed.
This outdated information. How long ago were you an ape?
Started in 2014, registered apprentice in 2016 and licensed in 2021.
Not sure exactly what’s outdated here. I know a good amount of apprentices going through it right now at different stages. Nothing has changed.
3x school in your 5 years of apprenticeship is Basic, intermediate and advanced. That’s it.
They’re so backed up that you don’t get into basic until atleast end of 2nd year and or in your 3rd year depending on the school you request to go to.
That is not good hearing that there is a backlog for getting the essential three sessions of education during the apprenticeship. This should be far more organized and well funded because we genuinely need a lot of capable people. Making them wait on an education component is ridiculous and it means somebody isn’t taking this seriously enough
Take the sessions back to back if possible. I did 3rd and 4th back to back because the way things were going, I knew I would struggle to come back for that last bit of school + the certification exam
For most apprenticeships, the rate of pay is tied to the year of apprenticeship (1st = 50%, 2nd = 60% etc of the journeyman rate). Also, you resign and go on EI to go to school. This makes going to school dangerous for apprentices with insecure employment. A company can easily decide not to hire you back, and you have just made yourself more expensive. Many apprentices avoid going to school so as not to price themselves out of a job.
As someone who has two red seal trades under their belt ( 310s automotive service and 306A plumber/ steamfitter) I am fully convinced that things will never change, its tough being an apprentice, you need an extremely thick skin as well as an open mind/ willingness to learn on the daily. My biggest issue is that skilled trades are still not pushed in school as a viable way to make a living. We are often getting the kids who didn’t do well in school and have no desire to be here, I love to help, but can only do so much. things need to change on a societal level before any meaningful change happens in our trades. Having some of the longest and best apprenticeships in the world, I feel like we should almost be compensated better ( like doctors) that will change society’s perception quickly.
Here’s 2 key statements in this article:
“Bullying and harassment remain persistent in the trades, with people from equity priority groups often leaving because they just don't feel welcome.
She also noted an erosion of employer investment in training and mentorship in general across Canada.”
If we have any hope of building twice as many homes in the coming years, we need more of our experienced trades people to be welcoming and encouraging, not prideful dicks who say things like “Well, people were cruel to me when I was an apprentice.”
WTF is an equity priority group. People should be judged on merit alone. No discrimination in any direction.
Its that DEI crap again gov shoving down our throats
Imagine being a white male who grew up poor and is trying to break the cycle of poverty.
"no sorry, you are too privileged young man"
Ya people should be judged on merit alone, but if you think that's how a construction site works, you've never been to a construction site.
I know you cant fix discrimination via a different kind of discrimination.
Ya that's true, but they're talking about people leaving not hiring. Equity priority just means women and brown people in CBC speak.
Ìt means no white men. Literally. Oh and your tax money funds your own peoples replacement. Canada is over.
The trades are one of the only sectors that DEI identity politics is unable to penetrate. Diversity hires that can't perform will get bullied out of the sector, just like all the white guys who are sub par.
Yes, repeated incompetence and inability to learn at a normal pace on a regular construction site requires their removal.
Bullying would be reduced if the kids coming up could spell and do math
Pay goes up every year I have to account for it on my project budgets. Honestly with hourly pay plus OT I don't know a boiler maker who didnt make 200k a year working nuclear refurbishment jobs at Bruce Power or Darlington
Another thing is that certain trades are being gatekept by instructors because they look down on students that need a little help and view things like accommodation for ADHD, etc. as cheating. I will tell you right now I had my rights violated by a school who refused to give me a separate room for tests when they were available, and also formula sheets for an extremely math heavy course. I have dyscalculia, ADHD, social anxiety etc which affected me badly in school. I passed the course and did well enough on my final, but if I had done better at my course tests with the help I requested, I would have gotten higher than 69% which ultimately failed me in Level 2. :) I switched trades because of this treatment and I was not treated well on the job either because I am a petite woman. My current manager thinks apprentices need to suffer 100% and that toxic mindset is still very much present literally where ever I go
My experience was they allow blatant cheating and push everyone through tradeschool which just sets them up to fail when it comes to the CofQ and being a journeyman in general.
I guess it depends on the trade. There`s only two places to go in the lower mainland for refrigeration, and the one that isn't BCIT is the one that's incredibly stuck up despite being structured horribly.
RTI is great, what are you on about? They are trying to weed out useless people who don't deserve the red seal. The instructors aren't going to hold your hand because you have anxiety, ADHD or other problems. This is way better than schools like VIU which will just give you the answers for an exam or do open book tests. Sounds like you just want the bar to be lowered so you can pass it.
Hahaha... Are you an RTI employee? RTI literally violates the rights of students... THEIR CUSTOMERS. Any student who goes there and asks for accommodation regularly gets refused it and they can file with the Human Rights Tribunal, they`re just too big of pussies to do it or too stupid to know their rights. I am a paying customer and I cannot even use a laptop if it helps me learn. They have to like you to approve you using a laptop. There is a lot wrong with the school. Open up their terms and you'll see right away the students are threatened with getting kicked out for this or that, when they're the ones who paid for the course in the first place.
RTI just wants your money and to not teach you if the opportunity arises. That's why they removed the math requirement, to take advantage of the disadvantaged. The instructors are very knowledgable, but they all have the same toxic mindset as you. That and they are elitist assholes who cram way too much bullshit into the course in the tiniest timeframe so they can claim to be the best, most thorough school--- Only, every single student struggles to retain the knowledge due to the cramming. Every school is required to teach certain subjects by SkilledTradesBC, but RTI wants to teach you more than most can handle in the timeframe given. In the end, RTI actually produces WORSE technicians due to this.
Surely you have noticed attending RTI is harder than the actual exam issued by SkilledTradesBC. That particular school is absolutely designed to gatekeep the trade and fail people as much as possible. They`re all crying right now that the union is full. I don't mind a challenge, but that school literally breaks the law. It is bullshit and you're an ableist. I would have passed the course if they didn't literally discriminate against everyone who isn't like them. it is their behaviour and reaction to my reasonable request for accommodation that created the anxiety. If someone is actively mistreating you who is in control of your future, you're gonna lose a lot of sleep. How well can you learn when you don’t sleep?
Wanna know something? All apprentices in the electrician trade get formula sheets, and that's all I asked for aside from a separate test writing room, which RTI offers to students on paper (but in reality they put you in a room full of other students who want to write in a quiet room so basically it's you and 10 other guys you dont know --- AKA not accommodating whatsoever, just pretending to) THERE ARE NO RULES AGAINST FORMULA SHEETS and with the volume of shit we learn at RTI, it is not holding hands to provide one. I would say they SHOULD provide one, to EVERYONE as standard. Not even accommodation. It is far from hand holding.
Much of what we learn is electricity related you know, and we don't get any formula sheet for that. Thankfully that's my strength and I got over 90% on all electric related shit because oh no I can actually do well at school if I like the topic or had a little help. At the end of the course, maybe the last or 2nd last test, they issued their first ever formula sheet to all students EVER because I went to SkilledTradesBC about their treatment of me and they got in SHIT. SkilledTradesBC also issued me one for my test which I did ok on, just not OK enough because I was barely passing thanks to RTI's shit. SkilledTradesBC did all that for me because RTI is bullshit and they want me to tell them everything about RTI so they can dig in deeper to this injustice of a school. The way RTI treated me made staff at SkilledTradesBC cry because they have disabled family members who they'd be horrified if they were treated as I was. So fuck you.
The dean hated helping students so much, and he hates me so much, he put the four most useless formulas on the sheet and told us we're expelled if we dont hand in this sacred formula sheet at the end of the test and we'll never see one again. He was very unhappy he was forced to do that. Because he's an asshole, and so are you. Literally everyone, BC law, and the governing body of trades in this province agrees with me. Only RTI and scum like you don't. Again, fuck you.
Lastly, I absolutely deserve the red seal and can learn everything I need to know to get it despite my problems. It's RTI's teaching and shitty attitude that ultimately was the problem for me. Be happy your life was so cushy and you can sit behind your computer screen putting others down because they aren't as successful as you. If you lived the life I was given, you might be dead by now.
They are keeping a lot of welders on the floor as wire burners. Make sure you get your cwb and keep it up to date. Unless they are continuously training and testing do not stagnate in one shop for more than 3 years. Keep moving until you're hired as a manager. It's the only way to cut through the masses of idiots they're shipping in
No use doing all the travel and grinding terrible hours in terrible weather half the year for a wage that'll barely make a dent in your cost of living.