Pitchers naturally drop their arm angle to deal with injuries. I guess we'll find out if it's an actual opportunity or just "it would be better if he'd be able to do it like he used to"
Hefner has a whole off-season to tinker with Strider.
Strider had a TJ during college and actually starting pitching faster after the surgery. I doubt it was immediate, but if his velocity can increase even after injury once, he can theoretically do it again.
Coming back from TJ throwing harder actually isn't that uncommon. Probably due to guys being put on the greatest throwing program of their lives and strengthening other areas to try and put less stress on the elbow.
Right. Hopefully it works, but more injuries on an elbow make it more difficult to bounce back the same too. They're also chasing more IVB than average velo.
Didn’t Strider say at one point that he intentionally changed the arm angle in hopes of avoiding future injuries? It’s possible that another pitcher said that but I had it in my head all year that he was both recovering from his injury and intentionally changed his arm angle. I was hopeful that he’d just be enough of a competitor that he’d figure out a new way to compete at a high level with enough time at the new arm angle. Now I’m wondering if it was just a temporary change while he worked back from the injury and now that he’s closer to full strength feels like he can get back to a better angle for him.
I don't recall him saying that, but I do think your theory is plausible. My own thought is that perhaps he was having command issues with the higher arm angle and was trading velo and IVB for command. With an off-season to tinker, he could hopefully work out the kinks.
Fangraphs had an article on it like three games into his return. EVERYONE knew about it. I'm with the other guy in the thread and vaguely thought it was an intentional change.
Coming back from a second Tommy John surgery is a very iffy proposition. Eovaldi seems to be the best example of someone who has, but even he still seems to have multiple injuries a year. Time will tell if it's the same for (1 Tommy John + 1 Brace).
I think it's as simple as do what you did that got you the contract and if you get hurt so be it because what he is now won't last in the rotation long and be might even wash out of the bullpen.
Spencer is so in tune with his game in total that everything is analyzed and intentional, so I think early season when the velo was down, he was likely attempting a soft reinvention dropping arm angle slightly and coming down to 95, believing he could have similar effectiveness there and avoid injury, increase average pitch count per outing, etc. The difference between a consistent 95 and sitting 98+ is very big, it’s the subjective MLB line between hitters being able to defend the plate vs. all offerings and effectively having to play the guessing game every pitch. Not super important, but I personally pitched alongside guys of his era at a fairly high level of baseball, the confidence factor is a double edged sword, makes them psycho-great but maybe blurs the lines on their perception of who they are and what the bread and butter is (and perhaps always will be). Large majority of cases was good pitcher’s pitchers who sold everything out to add 1-2mph that didn’t move the needle at their level of ball but it worked the other way too, cheese guys tinkering with form and arsenal, lost them velo and didn’t really open up much with that.
He did have stretches later where his FB was up again, I don’t think it’s natural loss on velo totally beyond his control, they kind of have to just determine where to go with him. IMO he’s already been paid and it’s kind of proven he’s not that outlier starter in the mid 90’s, I’d just go for broke and see what happens when he’s hucking gas from up top for 6 innings every week. Pitching is such an unnatural body-stressful thing anyway that I genuinely think (barring some very obvious “that guy’s arm is gonna snap in half” mottion) tweaking form and pitching profile to prevent injury or extend your arm’s lifespan is always diminishing returns, your connective tissue is just going to hold up or it’s not.
A higher or lower arm angle isn't necessarily better. Chris Sale's is 11 degrees and you have guys like Tyler Rogers whose angle is -61. It all depends on what works for each individual pitcher and their particular technique.
Not getting at anything, just curious what the baseline is. I wouldn’t think arm angle correlates to performance but maybe to pitch shape / tunnel or something
Pitchers naturally drop their arm angle to deal with injuries. I guess we'll find out if it's an actual opportunity or just "it would be better if he'd be able to do it like he used to"
Hefner has a whole off-season to tinker with Strider.
Strider had a TJ during college and actually starting pitching faster after the surgery. I doubt it was immediate, but if his velocity can increase even after injury once, he can theoretically do it again.
The million dollar question is the difference between the brace and Tommy John.
Coming back from TJ throwing harder actually isn't that uncommon. Probably due to guys being put on the greatest throwing program of their lives and strengthening other areas to try and put less stress on the elbow.
Right. Hopefully it works, but more injuries on an elbow make it more difficult to bounce back the same too. They're also chasing more IVB than average velo.
Didn’t Strider say at one point that he intentionally changed the arm angle in hopes of avoiding future injuries? It’s possible that another pitcher said that but I had it in my head all year that he was both recovering from his injury and intentionally changed his arm angle. I was hopeful that he’d just be enough of a competitor that he’d figure out a new way to compete at a high level with enough time at the new arm angle. Now I’m wondering if it was just a temporary change while he worked back from the injury and now that he’s closer to full strength feels like he can get back to a better angle for him.
I don't recall him saying that, but I do think your theory is plausible. My own thought is that perhaps he was having command issues with the higher arm angle and was trading velo and IVB for command. With an off-season to tinker, he could hopefully work out the kinks.
Okay, what is “IVB”?
Induced Vertical Break.
MLB Definition.
Induced Vertical Break. CJ loves talking about it.
Especially in the case of Spencer Strider, whose IVB is the secret sauce behind his incredible fastball. I don't blame him.
Yep
Degrom said that in texas once he came back from injury
Fix the arm!
https://preview.redd.it/opz6zo3by0cg1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8c06d2b1744682d9b864801875998fc277620fe9
Strider is so smart, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have considered something as obvious as arm angle.
Fangraphs had an article on it like three games into his return. EVERYONE knew about it. I'm with the other guy in the thread and vaguely thought it was an intentional change.
Coming back from a second Tommy John surgery is a very iffy proposition. Eovaldi seems to be the best example of someone who has, but even he still seems to have multiple injuries a year. Time will tell if it's the same for (1 Tommy John + 1 Brace).
The most recent surgery wasn't TJ. It was a "brace" thing, the same as Ohtani.
I think it's as simple as do what you did that got you the contract and if you get hurt so be it because what he is now won't last in the rotation long and be might even wash out of the bullpen.
Outside eyes can sometimes see something that you missed 100 times
Spencer is so in tune with his game in total that everything is analyzed and intentional, so I think early season when the velo was down, he was likely attempting a soft reinvention dropping arm angle slightly and coming down to 95, believing he could have similar effectiveness there and avoid injury, increase average pitch count per outing, etc. The difference between a consistent 95 and sitting 98+ is very big, it’s the subjective MLB line between hitters being able to defend the plate vs. all offerings and effectively having to play the guessing game every pitch. Not super important, but I personally pitched alongside guys of his era at a fairly high level of baseball, the confidence factor is a double edged sword, makes them psycho-great but maybe blurs the lines on their perception of who they are and what the bread and butter is (and perhaps always will be). Large majority of cases was good pitcher’s pitchers who sold everything out to add 1-2mph that didn’t move the needle at their level of ball but it worked the other way too, cheese guys tinkering with form and arsenal, lost them velo and didn’t really open up much with that.
He did have stretches later where his FB was up again, I don’t think it’s natural loss on velo totally beyond his control, they kind of have to just determine where to go with him. IMO he’s already been paid and it’s kind of proven he’s not that outlier starter in the mid 90’s, I’d just go for broke and see what happens when he’s hucking gas from up top for 6 innings every week. Pitching is such an unnatural body-stressful thing anyway that I genuinely think (barring some very obvious “that guy’s arm is gonna snap in half” mottion) tweaking form and pitching profile to prevent injury or extend your arm’s lifespan is always diminishing returns, your connective tissue is just going to hold up or it’s not.
Do we know the average MLB arm angle? Pic doesn’t seem to say
What are you getting at?
A higher or lower arm angle isn't necessarily better. Chris Sale's is 11 degrees and you have guys like Tyler Rogers whose angle is -61. It all depends on what works for each individual pitcher and their particular technique.
Not getting at anything, just curious what the baseline is. I wouldn’t think arm angle correlates to performance but maybe to pitch shape / tunnel or something
Here's some data on all the various arm angles.
I'd be curious too what exactly the effects of angle are on different pitches.
Been saying this for awhile now