There is only so much political capital to spend and as small nations we need to spend it wisely.
Before you can help anyone, you need to be able to help yourself. Ukraine is in our back yard and it's on fire so no matter how much your heart bleeds for Palestinians, it's important to put out the fire burning right in front of us before worrying about arson on a different continent.
Considering Palestinians receive the most foreign aid of any people in the world, I think they have plenty of support without us needing to take attention away from Ukraine.
Israel may threaten Palestinians, but Russia threatens Ukrainians, Khazakhs, Moldovans, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Georgians, Finns, Swedes, Romanians and many others. The greater threat is clear as day.
While that is all true, even if any "real" (financial or humanitarian) aid is not something we can afford to give to Palestine, a country can still make a point by not publicly supporting Israel through this entire mess
Considering the most important partner for us to maintain is the US and Israel is the closest to the US with its current leadership, it's actually actively against our interests to express support for Palestinians.
At most we can be silent, but silence is rarely acceptable and I will choose us and Ukrainians over Palestinians every single day so long as Russia remains a threat.
We've gained more political power precisely because our warnings regarding Russia proved to be correct. Let's not lose focus and spend that capital on people who wouldn't think twice about us being invaded and occupied. Hell, considering their ties to Iran and Russia the Palestinians would probably support our occupation rather than not.
I understand the reasoning, and I agree that for self-preservation purposes it makes logical sense.
My issue is that I have humanitarian values, and supporting Israel is fundamentally at odds with those values. They're people too, and even if they don't care about us, they deserve to be treated as people as well.
That's fine on a personal level, but are you expecting the wider public of political leaders to follow this mindset when we have an axe murderer at our door just itching to get in?
Support them however you wish, just don't demand the nation to sacrifice itself alongside you.
Being against genocide isnt a psyop. It's basic moral fiber. As victims of ethnic cleansing ourselves, we must have solidarity with those who go through the same and worse horrors. The same morals required to support Ukraine necessitate supporting Palestine.
The only moral position is Slava Ukraini ir Free Palestine.
If the IDF completely overpowers Hamas, the Palestinians are gonna get wiped out. But if Hamas completely overpowers the IDF then the Israelis get wiped out. The only reason the Palestinians have suffered more civilian casualties is because Hamas is the weaker force, not because they have any qualms against murdering innocent civilians. Point is, this is not the type of conflict where you fan the flames by picking sides, this is the type of conflict where you condemn all combatants and wish the best for all the innocent civilians getting caught up in the senseless violence.
Hamas is also known to use Palestinian civilians as human shields, that is true. But I still think most of that difference can be attributed to the difference in strength.
Also idf has modus operandi of issuing warning at civilians before launching strikes to reduce casualties , that’s why we have too much footage of this.
If 99% of Jews survived the holocaust then we probably wouldn't call it a genocide. There are quite severe moral implications when throwing out this term, it evokes a stronger reaction than simply murder, meaning we shouldn't use it lightly.
IDF bombs civilians centers, and Hamas builds their military infrastructure in those same spots so they can then use their destruction as proof of Israel targeting civilians.
Imagine if Baltic partisans rather than hiding in forests to fights against Soviets where there are no civilians, were instead using hospitals and schools as their bunkers. Wouldn't innocent deaths be on them as well at that point?
...but it doesn't have to be classified as genocide to still be a morally irredeemable act of murdering civilians? The IDF and Hamas are murderers and rapists, I don't really know why you're trying to downplay one side.
IDF could wipe out the whole Palestine already but they don’t because of humanitarian beliefs. Hamas are just terrorists (rapers and real baby killers) and it is crazy to support them.
Trying to derail every conversation about Ukraine to a different topic is a psyop. How do you imagine having conversation about any genocides if every time people will just derail the conversation?
I hope it is genocide of Jews in Middle East you are talking about. Don’t think Ukrainians want to be compared with Palestinians being governed by terrorist Hamas organization.
Back in Australia we have a lot of people pointing out the government not just turning a blind eye but continuing to supply weaponry to continue bombardment of civilians, while condemning Russia for doing the same.
These were normal people, not some psyop. So I think for at least some percentage of commenters the comparison is from the difficulty of reconciling how politicians can support one bloodshed but oppose another. Generally these people are young, looking from an empathetic lens rather than a geopolitical lens, not yet understanding the world is a complex place.
Oh, Australia and Hamas are doing that too. That's a very low bar. Anyone who can afford to kill civilians usually kills civilians.
It is bad, don't get me wrong. In WW2 every country was killing civilians and destroying civilian infrastructure. They weren't all doing the same thing, though. It would be nice if civilians didn't get murdered for political gains.
Yes I guess that was my point, maybe I didn't explain very well. I meant that people in Australia point out that Australian politicians are on one hand condemning killing civilians, but also killing civilians themselves, so the online dialogue is in some cases a reaction to this hypocrisy - but hypocrisy is normal in geopolitics, because the world runs on carefully constructed narratives not truth and justice.
It's a politically strange place, economy is not doing well so we need a continual supply of immigrants to keep GDP growth high. Politicians left-wash the issue claiming it is multiculturalism but in reality they are doing it to ensure re-election because they cannot be seen to be holding the bag when the numbers begin to fall. Consequences are we end up with non-integrated people + local people who begin to hate immigrants because they see quality of life fall + younger generation unable to ever buy a home because house prices are increasing about €10k per month.
I don't have any answers of course, regular person cannot do much.
Happy for you all slava ukraine
There is only so much political capital to spend and as small nations we need to spend it wisely.
Before you can help anyone, you need to be able to help yourself. Ukraine is in our back yard and it's on fire so no matter how much your heart bleeds for Palestinians, it's important to put out the fire burning right in front of us before worrying about arson on a different continent.
Considering Palestinians receive the most foreign aid of any people in the world, I think they have plenty of support without us needing to take attention away from Ukraine.
Israel may threaten Palestinians, but Russia threatens Ukrainians, Khazakhs, Moldovans, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Georgians, Finns, Swedes, Romanians and many others. The greater threat is clear as day.
While that is all true, even if any "real" (financial or humanitarian) aid is not something we can afford to give to Palestine, a country can still make a point by not publicly supporting Israel through this entire mess
Considering the most important partner for us to maintain is the US and Israel is the closest to the US with its current leadership, it's actually actively against our interests to express support for Palestinians.
At most we can be silent, but silence is rarely acceptable and I will choose us and Ukrainians over Palestinians every single day so long as Russia remains a threat.
We've gained more political power precisely because our warnings regarding Russia proved to be correct. Let's not lose focus and spend that capital on people who wouldn't think twice about us being invaded and occupied. Hell, considering their ties to Iran and Russia the Palestinians would probably support our occupation rather than not.
I understand the reasoning, and I agree that for self-preservation purposes it makes logical sense.
My issue is that I have humanitarian values, and supporting Israel is fundamentally at odds with those values. They're people too, and even if they don't care about us, they deserve to be treated as people as well.
That's fine on a personal level, but are you expecting the wider public of political leaders to follow this mindset when we have an axe murderer at our door just itching to get in?
Support them however you wish, just don't demand the nation to sacrifice itself alongside you.
So, people don't remember that the Soviet Union and Russia are the main hate fuel deliverers to the Middle East.
Im surprised this post is still up and not taken down.
It’s related to russian hybrid warfare on baltic states
Yeah, but i think you know what I mean.
Being against genocide isnt a psyop. It's basic moral fiber. As victims of ethnic cleansing ourselves, we must have solidarity with those who go through the same and worse horrors. The same morals required to support Ukraine necessitate supporting Palestine.
The only moral position is Slava Ukraini ir Free Palestine.
Huh, I wonder why Palestine supporters are so eager to always change the subject away from Ukraine.
Just look this up:
Iran parliament approves strategic pact with Russia
Russia and Iran Enter A New Level of Military Cooperation
Hamas Says Russia 'Our Closest Friend'
Oh right, because Russia and Palestine are close allies.
The people of Palestine aren't the government they just want to live and everyone's life matters
Not really they really like hamas
Why use a picture from Mariupol and claim that it's Gaza?
If the IDF completely overpowers Hamas, the Palestinians are gonna get wiped out. But if Hamas completely overpowers the IDF then the Israelis get wiped out. The only reason the Palestinians have suffered more civilian casualties is because Hamas is the weaker force, not because they have any qualms against murdering innocent civilians. Point is, this is not the type of conflict where you fan the flames by picking sides, this is the type of conflict where you condemn all combatants and wish the best for all the innocent civilians getting caught up in the senseless violence.
Incomplete reasoning, high casualties are due to density of city plus human shields
Hamas is also known to use Palestinian civilians as human shields, that is true. But I still think most of that difference can be attributed to the difference in strength.
Also idf has modus operandi of issuing warning at civilians before launching strikes to reduce casualties , that’s why we have too much footage of this.
Have Palestinian “millitia” done the same? Never
Whether Hamas agents are hiding among civilians or not, the IDF are still striking civilian centers. Still absolutely reprehensible.
If that’s the case why did 99% of gaza population survive?
I dunno what your source on that is, but even if that is the case then, like, what, that 1% just doesn't matter? That's still a fuck ton of people.
If 99% of Jews survived the holocaust then we probably wouldn't call it a genocide. There are quite severe moral implications when throwing out this term, it evokes a stronger reaction than simply murder, meaning we shouldn't use it lightly.
IDF bombs civilians centers, and Hamas builds their military infrastructure in those same spots so they can then use their destruction as proof of Israel targeting civilians.
Imagine if Baltic partisans rather than hiding in forests to fights against Soviets where there are no civilians, were instead using hospitals and schools as their bunkers. Wouldn't innocent deaths be on them as well at that point?
Please show me the place where I use that term lightly
no like i meant Genocides typically take higher percentages to be classified one
...but it doesn't have to be classified as genocide to still be a morally irredeemable act of murdering civilians? The IDF and Hamas are murderers and rapists, I don't really know why you're trying to downplay one side.
Except they're a democratically elected government.
Except they have popular support.
Except when Palestinians get drunk, they sing songs about retaking Jerusalem.
And when israelis are sober they sing songs about raping girls
IDF could wipe out the whole Palestine already but they don’t because of humanitarian beliefs. Hamas are just terrorists (rapers and real baby killers) and it is crazy to support them.
There is nothing moral about supporting a genocidal terrorist organization in Palestine.
The IDF?
Trying to derail every conversation about Ukraine to a different topic is a psyop. How do you imagine having conversation about any genocides if every time people will just derail the conversation?
I hope it is genocide of Jews in Middle East you are talking about. Don’t think Ukrainians want to be compared with Palestinians being governed by terrorist Hamas organization.
Back in Australia we have a lot of people pointing out the government not just turning a blind eye but continuing to supply weaponry to continue bombardment of civilians, while condemning Russia for doing the same.
These were normal people, not some psyop. So I think for at least some percentage of commenters the comparison is from the difficulty of reconciling how politicians can support one bloodshed but oppose another. Generally these people are young, looking from an empathetic lens rather than a geopolitical lens, not yet understanding the world is a complex place.
"while condemning Russia for doing the same."
The same what? What is the same?
Sorry I must not have been clear - killing civilians, destroying civilian infrastructure.
Oh, Australia and Hamas are doing that too. That's a very low bar. Anyone who can afford to kill civilians usually kills civilians.
It is bad, don't get me wrong. In WW2 every country was killing civilians and destroying civilian infrastructure. They weren't all doing the same thing, though. It would be nice if civilians didn't get murdered for political gains.
Yes I guess that was my point, maybe I didn't explain very well. I meant that people in Australia point out that Australian politicians are on one hand condemning killing civilians, but also killing civilians themselves, so the online dialogue is in some cases a reaction to this hypocrisy - but hypocrisy is normal in geopolitics, because the world runs on carefully constructed narratives not truth and justice.
Anyway, merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas.
I would not focus on hypocrisy but on doing good and not doing bad. Every one is a hypocrite, but not everyone is equally evil or equally kind.
We saw what happened in Australia: can’t even take care of islamists inside the country
Cant take care of emus either and lost two wars again flightless birds.
It's a politically strange place, economy is not doing well so we need a continual supply of immigrants to keep GDP growth high. Politicians left-wash the issue claiming it is multiculturalism but in reality they are doing it to ensure re-election because they cannot be seen to be holding the bag when the numbers begin to fall. Consequences are we end up with non-integrated people + local people who begin to hate immigrants because they see quality of life fall + younger generation unable to ever buy a home because house prices are increasing about €10k per month.
I don't have any answers of course, regular person cannot do much.
You’ve just described the problem of the whole developed world nowadays…
Just build more housing lol
Notice how antisemitic is the russian government. This is not a coincidence.
From Ukraine to Palestine - occupation is a crime!
In Knesset debate, Netanyahu says he regularly talks to Putin to safeguard Israel’s ‘vital interests’
Occupation is only a crime if a subject of international law existed before the occupation took place.