Hello, yep so my question is how are vegans treated while imprisoned, I assume there is some kind of hierarchy in jail so I'm curious where does a person who maybe liberated an animal or did anything that would be considered "eco terrorism" stand on the pyramid. I'm not interested about food I'm more curious about the social aspect. I mean a lot of us vegans get mocked in general now I'm curious is it the same in jail or does everyone have to mind their own business.

  • I was only in for a few days but the staff didn’t care, I got the same trays as everyone else and just traded my entree, dessert and milk for other peoples fruit cups and crackers. Other inmates there loved me for that lol.

  • This is really going to depend on the jail, county, state, etc. And jail is different than prison.

    Are people given the option of requesting a vegan meal? Or does it have to be a religious thing?

    In the UK, vegans are a protected class and get vegan meals in school and prison under their 2010 Equality Act.

    Really? This is amazing!

    Yeah - when I got arrested doing climate protest in 2021 at the COP climate conference in Glasgow they gave me the most amazing vegan curry and even offered me seconds when I said it was good!

    That’s the most vegan sentence I’ve read today

    I think I can do better, how about this: 

    I'm just on my way now to work in a supermarket that sells lots of meat which always makes me sad and ask my boss if I have to pack the shelves with meat and dairy today or if I can do something else; just before leaving I made sure to eat a big lunch for a long day with sweet potato, tempeh, beans, cabbage and potato dumplings before work.

    Sorry for the wall of text incoming but I can relate to you a bit- here's my story:

    I used to work at a restaurant where I had to serve people meat & dairy everyday & I felt really guilty about it but also felt stuck in that job & didn't know how to get out & start over somewhere else. (It was my first job). Then I worked for a department store fulfilling their online orders. When they opened up grocery delivery too I told my manager I quit my last job "working with food" for a reason but he didn't care. He was an actually awful person for more reasons than one but I'll tell you guys this one cuz I know it'll make you hate him too - he killed his pet iguana w/ a bb gun & then said it was an accident & then changed his story when I was still upset (we used to be friends before his promotion & the murder he committed) to saying that he did it out of pity for the pet because it was skinny & he couldn't return it to the store & he asked "everyone" if they would take it & no one said yes - excpet he didn't ask me or my roommates or anyone else we knew who would have been more than willing to care of it. Ok sorry passionate tangent there! Anyways THAT'S the manager that kept me on grocery pickups everyday. Atp I was pissed & realized how bad the management at my location was so I stopped trying to be a good employee. Was one of the lowest points in my life ngl. So when I got orders that came in w/ big hunks of meat I would straight up not look for it & just cancel the item cuz I was SICK of working w/ that stuff. The weaponized imcompetence did work in my favor for a bit but overall I had to get out of that place for my own mental health. Then I nannied some kids & had to feed them what their parents wanted me to so I felt bad about all the chicken nuggets I heated up for them 🥲 all this to say I'm working in a clothing store now & yes there's leather products but more pleather these days & overall I known the textile industry has it's own array of issues but I feel a lot better now compared to before. I'm minimizing my harm as far as I can right now. Hopefully someday things will be even better for both of us, but I promise you there's something out there better for you today.

    Nice, but your original comment was definitely more vegan. Thank you for fighting for the cause. I am curious though, and I mean this kindly, are the only jobs available to you in your area jobs that require you to handle meat and dairy and be a part of a culture that promotes it? Perhaps your sincere answer is “yes.. there is absolutely nothing else,” but perhaps it is not.

    what was it like being arrested?

    Oh it sucks but it’s not thaaat bad. Handcuffs are annoying and uncomfortable, and in the uk the police have to hold your wrists when you aren’t in them which is even more uncomfortable as they hold hard and they have uncomfortable gloves on. The police station in Glasgow was ok, they had a matress and scratchy blanket where you could have a sleep and a toilet you could use anytime but you had to call a guard and ask them to flush it for you, the guard also controls whether you have your light on or not but if you are pleasant they will Turn it off. They have to come wake you up once an hour though which sucks. Then they brought you food and in my case they even let me go for a walk and brush my teeth, but they released me in the middle of the night after the last trains so I was kinda screwed. Ended up sleeping in a park in the rain and 4°C with not much cover from the wind and rain and only a fsirls thin jacket and coat whilst lots of drunk loud students were walking past me through the night which sucked.

    This was all different than Germany where I have also been arrested several times for protest and my experience in Germany was that they often dont take you back to the station if they can avoid it, but they also care less about using handcuffs when they do, they usually use handcuffs far less overall time and they don’t hold your arms. Then they keep you in waiting areas or much more basic cells so you aren’t alone as much and the cells never had a mattress usually just a wooden frame to lay in, or in Frankfurt they literally only had tiles snd it was hard as but luckily I was only there for an hour or two. And the cells in Germany in my experience also don’t have toilets, you have to ask every time to go to the toilet. But in Germany there was far less time mucking around at the station, it was usually all done and cleared for release within a couple hours Not like 12-15 in the uk.

    I doubt that the U.S. is very accommodating

    Federal and state prisons might have vegetarian and vegan meal options. California requires it. Food will still be low quality.

    Jail is short term and its a total crap shoot. An inmate might be able to cobble something together between regular food tray, commissary and trading. If people have money on their books they can buy their own junk food.

    The bottom line is that when someone becomes a prisoner they lose control over their eating habits.

    there’s also some things like chicken flavored ramen - vegan if you don’t eat the flavor packet. someone may want the flavor packet too so it’s not wasted. just depends on if you ethically feel weird about it

    Under the first amendment, prisons are required to accommodate for religious dietary restrictions. Rastafarianism is effectively vegan. So claim to be Rastafarian for a vegan hack.

    How it works in practice, I do not know. But that is the law as I understand.

    If you’re criming you best be Rastafarianisming in advance.

    Don't quit your day job

    Rastafarianism is one of the hardest religions to prove at least for prisons in New York state. this is because if you're a Rasta you can be immune to the requirements of hair length and shaving. ironically enough it has nothing to do with the food. there will be some vegan foods in prison not a guarantee not for every meal other than refusing to eat some of the things. I wouldn't always trust what the inmates serving the food will tell you either, I have quite literally seen them giving people that were Muslim or Jewish beans saying that they were vegan and looking in the pan seeing a trunk of pork fat because it was cans of pork and beans and the inmates not seeing any obvious meet just assume that beans are vegan. most likely if you have money on your books you will have trouble whether in county or state custody until you have commissary after that you can pretty much get away with just about any diet. will the guards harass you yes but no more than they're going to harass anybody else and it'll depend on guard to guard. if you let them know that it seriously bothers you they will see it as a sign of weakness and zero in on it. as far as the inmates once again it's a crap shoot. there will be some inmates that just hearing your vegan will depending on your build immediately assume that you're an easy mark or possibly even a sissy. and there will be some inmates that may respect you for your choice you will hear it's a stupid reason to go to prison I mean it may be different for Federal time I don't know. that definitely wouldn't be one of the most respected reasons to go to jail or prison but it's far from one of the stupidest or the most targeted. overall as long as you're not trying to bend over backwards to please other people or making a scene of things if you stand up for yourself you should be fine.

    Good luck, don't expect it at all from what I understand

    I got them, but it took a couple of weeks of submitting a request every day before they got it processed.

    In Asheville, NC, it was an option. I guess the vegan meals must have been better, because in the state funded rehab I worked at, for every real vegan, there was a person there on jail diversion that rescinded their vegan meal request once they realized it made no difference in quality and mostly just limited their options.

    Thanks that’s interesting. Maybe vegans should try to start a movement to make laws that say “vegan meals” are a required option in all state jails and prisons, and for those meals to be nutritionally sustainable too (like legumes are a fairly cheap alternative for the protein).

    Carnist here but scrolling through,

    In South African mens prisons vegans are usually rape victims. Will explain below.

    In South Africa you would likely be treated as a "woman" in their prison system. South African mens prisons are run by a group called the numbers gang. Unlike many other countries, the gang actually runs the prison.

    When you enter mens prison it's determined if you will be considered a "man" (gang member) or a "woman" (i.e. rape victim/sex slave). If they don't think you're tough enough to be a "man", you become a "woman". Part of being a woman under the numbers gang is you cannot have animal products. You must give your meat and dairy to the "men". As a women, you must eat vegan to keep feminine/non muscular figure. So the "men" get maximal pleasure from you. You're forced to be vegan to keep up the perception of femininity, despite being a biological male.

    Entering prison and already refusing to consume animal products, you would likely be labeled a "woman" by the numbers and will end up as a sex slave passed around by the numbers.

    Yeah South African prison is a scary place.

    Whoa. I had no idea. This gave me chills.

    Lol the funny part is I'm getting down voted just for participating and giving information that is asked for.

    Vegans are a very sensitive bunch.

    It could be the “Carnist here” part.

    Yes. I guess vegans can be triggered by someone not being vegan. It's to be expected

    Only some. The vocal minority overshadowing the majority didn't skip veganism, to be very blunt.

    I'm the sole vegan in most of my friend groups. It's not like I don't think eating meat is sad or something, but food is culture and the rest of animalia engages in eating meat even aside from humans.

    Dietary choices like veganism always have to be a personal choice, South African prison situation aside of course. wow that's heavy shit, btw, thanks for sharing.

    Honestly the hardest part was them accepting that I'm cool with just fries or hanging out while they get food. If I can't eat anything at a place, it's no big deal to me. Took longer for them than I expected to get used to it.

    I am sorry for thinking that animals deserve basic protection from abuse and exploitation under the law...

    I believe the same as you, friend. We're on the same side and please hear me and trust me when I say you don't need to make your point this way.

    Humans are also animals being exploited for profit by the same uncaring, corporate-run factory "ranching" outfits that abuse and exploit "livestock".

    Veganism cannot end at caring about every other animal aside from humanity. The meat industry lobbies, advertises with, and controls grocery store shelving through absurd amounts of money a year solely in the effort to keep people eating meat.

    The people we yell at, call names like "bloodmouth", or shame for eating what they were taught through marketing-twisted culture to eat are also animals being exploited by the same industry you and I feel is so awful.

    People are convinced, re-convinced, shamed, made fun of, and asked all manner of dumb questions even when simply trying to reduce meat consumption. Studies proving better sources of nutrients are buried, have their funding cut, or suddenly find nowhere reputable will publish their findings.

    That isn't their fault. The meat industry needs animals to consume what it creates, so it can make money on it. Or it is waste. So they collude and push, push, push and make sure to spend extra in schools where they can teach our children early "how necessary meat is to a healthy diet".

    The animal consumption industry is very "as below, so above", they manufacture reasons to scare people into not even trying a new diet to see how it fits them. They do this solely because more people eating meat = more meat sold. This is also a cycle that needs to be broken and we can't do it by being mean, petulant, sarcastic, or just kinda shitty about someone's current diet.

    TL;DR - The humans being constantly convinced through fear-based marketing to not change established habits need liberating same as the cows do. You aren't wrong, but if we want better we need to treat people better when trying to advocate.

    Look up tone policing.

    Well y’all call non-vegans carnist. So why get upset when someone refers to themself with that term? Is it because they took the power away from your attempt to insult them? 

    I don’t know. I’m not vegan.

    Your flair says vegan?

    I forgot about that. I was vegan for about five months before landing on pescatarian. Thanks for the reminder.

    Carnist here,

    I think so. But the problem is it's not a good insult. It actually sounds kind of cool. Reminds me of carnage from Spiderman or the term carnivore. Though we know carnivore =/= carnist.

    FWIW I’m a vegan and idk who downvoted you in the askvegans subreddit, but it appears your original comment is back in the positive, as it should be, since you were literally just contributing. Not all of us are sensitive in that way!

    You must not eat animal products to keep a vegan/non-muscular figure? LMAO come on.

    Talk to the numbers about it if you have complaints

    I doubt they have access to nutrient dense vegan foods in PRISON in AFRICA. Therefore they’re skinny/non-muscular eating that way. Especially if they’re not given replacements for the dairy and meat they have to give away. Like come on dude, not everything is an insult against vegan food choices. Maybe stop eating so much grass and go touch it instead? 

    I wouldn't assume that for every country in Africa, and I personally don't know what the food culture is like in South Africa. In some places, like Ethiopia, they also eat a lot of beans. If they're orthodox, eat plant-based for large portions of the year for religious reasons.

    What about women's prison?

    Be a sex trafficker, you'll get sent to minimum security with yoga classes

    No idea. I'm sure its much nicer. You can check out documentaries on the Numbers Gang of South Africa on YouTube.

    The have one where they interview the leader John Mongrel. Dude is unapologetic about how he is the first to rape every new prisoner deemed a "woman" by the gang.

    I guess if you're vegan though being a woman isn't as bad as it is for everyone else. The raping part is awful but you're already used to the vegan diet.

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    This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

    Being withheld meat and dairy as control by others doesnt make you vegan, veganism is an ethical choice to avoid animal exploitation. That would be like being forced to be plant based but I wouldnt call those individuals vegan

    I believe the above post was purely trying to be informative rather than outlining what constitutes 'vegan.'

    Yeah but it's important to point that out because it is misleading. The term vegan implies ethics and choice

    Even semantics has a time and place, sheesh

    Did you read the whole comment? They covered that and said if you come in vegan you'll automatically be assigned, not that being assigned makes you vegan.

    Maybe they edited it that's not what I remember reading

    I think the point was if you are vegan the social structure of the prison would likely place you in a group such that you can as a vegan only have non-animal food available, but also treated as a slave.

    The entire country sounds scary! I've seen enough true crime videos. Plus, I used to watch Dingo Dinkelman on YouTube. "Hey kids, here's a boomslang, the most deadly snake in South Africa." His kids were in arm's reach! Yes, he did later die after playing with a green mamba. That man was literally allergic to antivenom and still kept venomous snakes! His insanity scares me. 

    I want to be labeled to all honesty and women

    This. 

    The thing people misunderstand really badly about jails and prisons is that for the most part it’s the guards, not the other incarcerated people, you need to watch out for. People in prison are just people—some good, some bad. But there is a lot of care and mutual aid in prisons. Being kind and respectful goes a long way. So I don’t think being vegan necessarily changes anything. 

    Sorry, I understand that’s less dramatic than wild tales of rape gangs, but it’s the truth. 

    I came to second this. It’s extremely subjective in a county, state, and federal level and even each one of those have slightly different operating rules and standards, as it is somewhat dependent upon certain inmates good or bad behavior. I would at it’s probably not very good due to funding and also if you’re in jail or prison, you probably did something to warrant it. If you do something illegal, some of your rights are taken away. They’ve always feed you, so unless you are deathly allergic, they add probably not going to honor a lot of food requests and yes some people have almost starved in prisons bc of this, even as a non vegan.

  • It took me five days to get the meat off my plate. Then I had to see the doctor to say I was lactose intolerant and couldn't digest eggs, both from being vegan for so long. He winked at me and signed off on it. I still got served jello but would trade it for fruit. This was in California, at a county jail. At first they served me raw unseasoned tofu, heated up. I was so grateful for it, but offered the kitchen staff some pointers and it got better. People often commented that my food looked better than theirs and a few signed up for veggie diets themselves. Socially, I was cool asf for this. It was on the women's side and lots of us were hippies. At no point was I mocked for it.

    Where I’m from, prisoners used to claim to be Jewish because the kosher meals were better and fresher.

    My family used to do this for airplane meals when they were still served lol

    Airplane meals are still served everyday

    You’re right that is true, I meant on shorter domestic flights like back in the day. Should have worded differently.

    Thank you for sharing this. I wanna say this sounds cool but I also don't wanna sound insensitive, I can't imagine it was easy

    Nice story. I imagine certain days it is not that different for people with religious restrictions.

    I’d like to think I’d be a good commissary “cook”. allergies and vegan.

    I wonder what nice stacks are surprise vegan commissary staples and also what the process is like trying to get newer brands allowed into commissary.

    Commissary was hard because I couldn't see the ingredients on anything. I had to order and pay for stuff then wait a week to find out whether I got to eat it or would have to give it away to the pregnant lady. I found vegan oatmeal pies right before my release date. I only got to eat one before I got out. I still think about how delicious that thing was.

  • Most likely situation is they give you the same tray and you only eat the veggies, unfortunately. Theres often groups of people willing to call the jail on the persons behalf and request that they be given vegan meals in animal rights activist circles though.

    Whoops I just read the other answers and assumed you were talking about food. I’ve never heard anyone talk about being treated particularly differently by the other inmates for animal rights charges.

  • Clearly no one actually read the OP.

    Carnist here, but I can give you info on South african mens prisons. The rape victims are deemed "women" and are forced to be vegan.

    South African prisons are run by the numbers gang. A very brutal gang that is effectively the only gang and the gang that runs the prison system.

    The members of the gang are "men". The victims of the gang are "women". They are called "women" because their roles are as sex slaves/rape victims for the men.

    When you enter the prison, the numbers determine if you are tough enough to be a man or woman. If they decide you are a woman, you're in for a lot of unconsenting anal (receptive) sex and ofcourse will be forced to give oral sex. Part of being a "woman" is you're also required to give all the animal products on your tray to the "warriors" or the "men". This is so you can keep your skinny figure for the benefit of the "men" who will have sex with you. So you become a forced vegan to maintain a perception of femininity.

    If you enter this system as vegan it's likely you would be classed as a "woman" due to your diet as soon as you enter the prison.

    You don't know what the word vegan means if you think it applies to a prisoner forced to eat plant based products. 

    still a vegan diet

    Reread last paragraph. Also you can use vegan as a dietary term

    "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

    Contradiction

    the practice of dispensing

    are forced to be vegan

    Anyways that sounds horrible, in the us I went to jail and there was a person who you could give a honeybun to and they would give you a hand job, apparently. But most people just left them alone.

    Nah people on this sub constantly talk about how peasants or poor people are mostly vegan because they couldn't afford meat. As if it was an ethical choice.

    By your definition babies and toddlers can't be vegan either, because they would eat animal products if allowed.

    Babies and toddlers can be vegan as far as they can grasp the concept. Veganism is an ethical position, even if people get it confused with "plant-based".

    But babies don't hold ethical positions, they don't understand ethics yet. So they can't be vegan

    Sure. Babies are learning ethics. Later they learn to articulate them. I think the right time to call someone vegan is when that's how they describe themselves.

    the fact that people self-identify as carnists is crazyyyy, it's like saying "hey, racist here!" or "hey, holocaust participant here!" lmaoooo

    Carnist is just veganese for "normal". I like using your terms when I engage your population.

    Being a carnist has nothing to do with racism or the holocaust. Carnism is beautiful. Modern society is built upon the shoulders of carnism. Domestication of animals for food and work was what supported large populations. Large populations made innovation possible. Etc...

    replace "carnism" and "domestication of animals" with "slavery" and "slave labor" and you've got a supposed justification for human slavery

    But this isn't human slavery. As much as you would want it to be. These are just non human animals.

    i understand that, i'm just saying that the logical components of your argument could just as easily be used to justify human slavery, and that's because it's not a good argument. just because something was beneficial to some individuals for a long time doesn't make it okay to do now.

    And if an apple was human, you would be a cannibal for eating an apple. However this isn't the case. Context actually matters. We are not talking about human lives. These are just apples. Just like in your example, those are just non human animals.

  • Having worked at one of the largest jails in the US I’ll say it’s not a pretty sight. There are gangs who can reliably get away with a lot, officers are understaffed and at best are neutral towards the detainees. Worst case they turn their eyes to a lot of things that happen. No one is there to protect you. Imagine being surrounded by all the middle school bullies ever but they’re adults with more physical power, above average wisdom and smarts, and they are connected with gangs or friends or various staff members. It would be best to keep to yourself and not broadcast you being vegan or coming up with excuses why you can’t eat meat and dairy etc. At this jail even the low risk areas are pretty bad but best you can do to get to the low risk areas is to either have insulin dependent diabetes or other critical medical condition, and or some moderate to severe psych issues that are on going and/or have a high profile case or be the bully and cause so much chaos/grief that you can’t be housed in gen pop. Also unfortunately my jail didn’t have any established practices for a vegan diet. Never ran into any vegans the whole time I was there either.

    Thank you for taking your time to write this, it's really helpful.

    I don’t know how the answer could be anything other than this in the U.S.

  • Are you thinking about Zoe Rosenberg?

    Sure, she could be an example or any member of the ALF that got unlucky enough to get caught

    I meant more so because she’s the highest profile case of vegans going to prison right now

  • Depends where you live. Where im from, the closed prisons provide you with 4-5 meals a day, and any special diets due allergies, religion, ethical beliefs etc will be provided. In open prisons the food system varies, but if food is provided, any special diets will be provided. In some open prisons the inmates go to the grocery store themselves to get their own stuff so they eat what they like.

    So only after commenting i read the whole question lol sorry i have no idea

    Where do you live? Do they wear an ankle bracelet or something to go to the grocery store?

    No ankle bracelets, in some open prisons the inmates even have jobs or studies where they leave for the day and then come back. I live in finland.

  • I think you would find the episode “Looking Out” from the podcast Ear Hustle interesting. Ear Hustle is produced inside of San Quentin state prison.

    It’s been years since I listened to this episode, so I don’t remember if it’s specifically mention veganism, but it focuses on an incarcerated man named Roach and his love for animals.

    Thank you, I will check it out

    Oh my god, I've never seen an Ear Hustle reference in the wild before! It's awesome (and so are you)!

    Ear Hustle is often THE podcast I recommend to people! You’re awesome too, my friend

  • I know that here in Portugal there are plant-based options in jail.

  • i did approx. 6 years fed time and fortunately i didn’t have much trouble for the most part. the only issues i had were when i was being transported and basically county jail hopping bc even if they honor a vegan diet, it usually takes a few days at least to get it going and by then i’d be on to the next. what always ended up happening anywhere i was lots of other girls saw id get way better, healthier food so next thing u know the whole unit is on a vegan diet haha. i was actually vegan and GF bc im also celiac, so there were def some starvation times when i got too skinny, but i imagine being not fed. things would have been much worse.

    Were you able to get any vitamin B12 supplements or anything like that?

    i didn’t get any, but i also didn’t ask, so it may be possible. usually how it worked for me is that if my family was willing 2 send in the med. then they’s allow the nurse 2 dispense it 2 me at med cart.

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