I’ve seen a lot of questions about vegans and insects lately (especially around honey), but I haven’t seen this question asked?
Are vegans really out there cohabitating with roaches or bedbugs?
Also, what about a rodent infestation? I don’t think you could ever get ahead of a bad mouse infestation with rehoming traps.
Thoughts?
I kill them as a last resort,
if it's a one off one I will usually catch & release; however, when it starts to be an infestation I kill the ones I see & hire an exterminator to help prevent future infestations
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IMO, theres a line between killing something which puts your personal health at risk (as bug infestations can be harmful to ones health) & breeding animals for the sheer purpose of wanting to kill them. Thankfully I never had a rodent problem; however, if I did -- I'd likely ask a friend to come over with their cat for a while to scent up the house to deter rodents
this is exactly what I do. A single spider or earwig? slip them into a cup and put them outside. Infestation? My priority becomes addressing the infestation and preventing it from coming back.
Assuming you would want to know this: house spiders generally die if you put them outside :( I try to leave them where they are now. But I don’t live in Australia or somewhere with dangerous spiders so that may be easier said than done for others.
The fact that Australians just live with their house-huntsman spider, is evidence that I'm not meant to live in Australia
Same lmao I could not deal with that
I love my house huntsmans. They don’t bother me at all !
Sometimes you get a cheeky fella crawl across you, but as long as you let them do their own thing they never really bite or bother you.
Heck, sometimes i get bored and just yoink a spider out of my room and put her in the kitchen. Everybody likes a change of scenery, plus there’s more flies downstairs !
Haha. I like spiders but not the venomous kind.
I leave them to their own devices unless they’re in a dangerous part of the house
I live in an old apartment and just move spiders to the indoor stairwell. Though sometimes they betray me and just creep right back in through a crack by the door. So then I have to recapture them and put them on another floor to become someone else’s problem. But if it’s a spider that is very obviously harmless, I leave them to do their thing & keep me pest-free.
Indeed that line exists but then is as subjective as any other.
sure, there's a line of "don't murder"; however, we find that subjective when in self defense
the exceptions generally prove the rule & when ones health is not at risk, murder is often frowned upon -- even if it's subjective
Indeed I am agreeing with you. Just wanted to point out this isnt a right or wrong topic, is a choice.
That is what subjectivism is as a moral philosophy. Right means preferable. Wrong means not preferable.
There's gray lines around "self-defense" murder too. For example somobdy lighting your car on fire with nobody inside or catching someone stealing your late mother's wedding ring you have lot of memmories connected to.
Or even somebody witnessing a person irreparably sadistically harm their child after the fact and it couldn't be proven in court. Killing that person is murder in Law's perspective, but lot of people would consider it justified
Self defense in the sense of having to take action to protect your physical health. If I'm not inside of the car, it isn't self defense if I murder someone for lighting it on fire. That example and the ring example would be defending personal property, not self defense. It's not okay to murder someone for those things.
Literally none of your examples would be considered self defense.. and there's nothing gray about that. How is murdering a bad person after they abused a child self defense? Inmates attack/murder other inmates for child abuse all the time. How would that ever be considered self defense? You can't defend yourself if you aren't being attacked. It's especially not self defense in a scenario where you are literally perpetrating the attack.
So, how about termites, ants, and the like who damage property but don't harm you directly. Getting rid of them would then be wrong, right?
Damaging my property is harmful to me. I live in a cold climate and it protects me from the elements.
You can always move to another house, or another climate
My apologies, but this is a ridiculous argument that I will not be wasting my energy on
It is a reduction to absurd to show that the principle is completely subjective. Where you draw the line is arbitrary, and therefore you can not ask others to comply with the same principle.
Besides, the more sophisticated argument would be, don't live somewhere where such insects exist. The reason they attack your home is because you are in their habitat.
A lot of people consider animal agriculture and eating dead animal parts justified.
That's my point exactly
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"Inconvinent". What a wonderful, objective term.
This subreddit should be a friendly, informative resource, not a place to air grievances. This is a space for people to engage constructively; no belittling, insulting, or disrespectful language is permitted.
Just commenting because I have the best cat. She refuses to kill mice. She loves to play with them and is very good at catching them, but it's always catch and release.
Its probably really stressful for the mice to have a cat do that to them.
I don't think that person knows that they are watching their cat actively torture another creature
Hahahahaha the first time I witnessed my cat interact with a mice I thought it was the cutest thing she was playing with it and then I found out she was actively torturing it
Cats love it so much! The mouse is usually kept alive as long as it's fun to chase
Which is why I catch it as soon as possible and put it outside. I still think that's better than killing it even if they have to be stressed out for 30 seconds.
It is unreasonable to let it live in my house so there's not really another option.
When a cat bit a mouse/bird even a tiny bit they die btw. I had never managed to save a bird taken from my cats mouth
Honey, that's because her mommy never taught her how to kill!
Curious how far you take this philosophy? For example overpopulation of deer is a direct cause of fatal car accidents. Would you be ok with controlled deer hunts in order to maintain a safe and healthy population?
If a human population were growing faster than infrastructure could handle, and was found to be the direct cause of fatal accidents would the ethical solution be lethal culling - or non-violent measures like family planning, relocation, and environmental design?
In this case, it might be an option to build fences to restrict the animals' movement.
Brother have you seen how big Canada is? That’s absolutely not a viable option in anyway whatsoever
How about implementing speed restrictions on certain routes?
True.
I'm about the same. I've caught & expelled a lot of roaches over the years, & used live traps to catch & relocate a number of mice.
Considering that most mice and rats are invasive species, killing as many of the invasive types as possible is the more responsible thing to do for the ecosystem health.
Self defense is a valid reason to kill someone. Vegans also probably wouldn't let a person stab them to death without fighting back
I've heard this called the parasitic principle. Anything that lives off me lives at my discretion.
I take antibiotics, smack mosquitos, and support abortion rights, but still practice a vegan lifestyle.
Fun fact, parasites are a sign of a healthy ecosystem. There's a special term for versions that kill hosts: parasitoids.
I don't smack mosquitoes because killing one won't make a difference. Only if I'm in a mosquito proof space and one has slipped in.
Even then, it's often possible to catch em alive in your hand and release outside. If they die in the process, I had no intention to kill.
Actually, it does make a difference. Only female mosquitoes bite, and they use the blood to produce dozens or even hundreds of eggs. Killing one doesn’t wipe out mosquitoes, sure, but it does stop that mosquito from biting again and reproducing.
And stops the spread of malaria, where relevant, malaria that causes 600,000+ deaths a year (source: CDC) in the developing world.
i live in an island so smacking mosquitoes as a vegan is a norm. we get so sick being bit by mosquitoes. i use repellent on my kids and i but sometimes they don’t care and you have to
True. OTOH, I wouldn't casually poison a thousand monkeys, elephants, dogs, pigs, parrots or chickens without deeply searching for another solution first. The sentience level of insects versus vertebrates and how much they likely suffer matters a lot, too.
Comparing getting stabbed to an ant walking on your floor?
Ants can be highly destructive. I also don't think vegans would allow people to damage their shit. You also have a right to defend your property is someone is damaging it. You shouldn't immediately kill them, but if it's a last resort it's a last resort.
Yeah well to take somebody's life you'd need a damn good reason. Those poor poor ants don't know any better. Humans are the ones that destroyed their homes and built over it no?
I think the foundation of your home being destroyed by someone who refuses to stop despite all other measures being used is a good reason, until they open prison for ants. My home was also not built anywhere ants lived. I live in a building that's on artificial shoreline in lake Michigan. No animals were displaced for that
Is there a reason you troll vegans given you care so much about the lives of ants?
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I live in a city, there's basically no insects I kill when walking. Even if I did kill some, it's not intentionally. I don't breed ants by sexually abusing them, throw them on the ground, and stomp on them for fun. That would be a more apt comparison. I also don't accidentally step on a cow ever in my life. I do actually watch my steps a lot because I'm physically disabled and need to ensure I don't severely injure myself in case you were wondering. Last time I didn't I tore a ligament in my ankle
Please tell me how I, a woman who has been sexually abused, is a misogynist for acknowledging that sexual abuse counts even when it's not a human? Why is it insulating that other animals can be abused? Does someone raping a dog with their fist not count because they're a dog? Because beastiality laws would disagree. Is it saying that all women are useless dogs to suggest that raping a dog is wrong? Or calling it raping a dog? Stop hiding behind women when most vegans are women who sympathize with the sexual abuse animals experience. Seems gross to explain to women why you think they're a misogynist because you don't like the language they use
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The buddah did exactly this.
I don't know that story.
Can you go into more detail?
I was raised Buddhist and I remember a story about a Bodhisattva sacrificing himself to a tiger out of compassion. Might not be the one they're talking about, though.
Props to the Buddha, but the mileage of me and my S & W 686 varies.
Would you care to elaborate?
A serial murderer attacked the buddah with knife but the buddah just offered himself to be killed without fighting back, if that's what the murderer wanted. But the murderer changed his worldview instead and became a deciple of the buddah
So he didn't let himself get stabbed, he taught someone a lesson?
If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!
There's a Buddha on the road...
Insects and rodents are worthy of protection, and so are humans. So when cohabitation isn't possible because it risks humans or their health, we have a conflict of rights. That provides a solid justification to try and get rid of the animals.
First, try and avoid getting into this situation (e.g. keep food stored securely so a wandering mouse that comes along doesn't find anything and moves one before you'd notice). Next, try non-lethal options. Only if all those fail or are known to be ineffective/dangerous should you consider lethal action.
Same as with humans really.
Yup, prevention is key so I don’t have to kill any bugs. Use deterrent type pest control, ie seal gaps and holes into the house, keep the house clean, pets get monthly preventatives, etc.
I'd reccomend searching again, this question is asked a ton on vegan subs, you'll find a ton of answers
It's very common for people to misunderstand veganism in a way that makes it seem totally unreasonable. Veganism's idea is not that animals are worthy of protection in all cases. Forgetting animals for a second, you probably don't even believe humans are worthy of protection in all cases, for example, serial killers, invading armies, squatters, perhaps. Veganism's idea is that animals do not deserve to be exploited, treated like commodities, or otherwise used for our purposes. These are uncontroversial ideas when applied to people, btw, it's just when it's animals that many seem unable to make the connection.
So, to your question, removing, even killing, animals that are infesting your home is compatible with veganism, though you would probably find vegans attempt the least harmful ways of removal first, even if inconvenient.
This is a good, insightful comment.
I was just shocked at people saying that bees can be exploited in other threads. It’s weird to me that we would consider taking honey from bees and having bees pollinate stuff is considered exploitation. It just doesn’t seem like the right term. I suppose textbook wise I could fit, but it just seems like an eye rolling stretch of the term.
I used to think it was weird too, before I really thought about it. Then I realized there was no good reason that the moral consideration I extend to chickens, cows, sheep, and goats (whose exploitation for their bodily secretions was intuitive to me) shouldn't also be extended to bees.
Honeybees are livestock that have been genetically modified via selective breeding, just like chickens and sheep. They are used as enslaved animal labor to pollinate crops, displacing natural pollinators (like thousands of other bee species, as well as many other types of animals). All honeybees in NA were brought over to the continent and are an invasive species. But whether they are used for honey production or crop pollination, their use and history is really no different than what we’ve done and do with chickens and sheep, who are absolutely being exploited. People may make arguments about backyard eggs and wool still, claiming it isn’t exploitative; however, we know the financial incentive of those products still leads to exploitation of these creatures. And ultimately, these nuanced situations are the result of humans exploiting these species of animals. We wouldn’t have to have this conversation if honeybees were just left in the wild to make honey like they were supposed to be, like all the other bee species. But now, they’re like cats or pigeons, we can no longer give them a natural habitat where they aren’t invasive really, and they are different than their natural ancestors due to our selective breeding. What makes sense from a vegan perspective is to have honeybee sanctuaries where the honey is left alone.
Do you see a moral distinction between breeding and exploiting unnaturally modified bees for honey versus for fruit tree pollination?
I’m not sure what your question means, sorry. Are you asking if I view the use of honeybees for honey, any differently than the use of honeybees for pollination (it’s not just for fruit tree pollination to be clear)? No, I think morally they are the same. However, I think that native bees (or perhaps even sanctuary bees when they are invasive like honeybees are to NA) who happen to pollinate crops without any human intervention of the bees/hive (except perhaps to help with disease or something) is something different entirely. Does that answer your question?
Yeah, that was exactly what I meant, and our thoughts about it seem to be the same.
I’m glad I answered your question without misinterpreting it!
Are honeybees enslaved? They don’t have to come Back.. they chooses to come back
They do have to come back, because it's their home, and they cannot survive out in the wild without their hive. And they didn't choose to be brought over to North America at all.
Really? You haven't seen this question asked?
Unfortunately they need to be removed under any circumstance. I wouldn't say a vegan being attacked by a bear is less vegan for killing it in self defense. Infestations can also put your health and life at risk.
Consider this comparison, though:
(a) To get a small amount of pleasure from a cool breeze on an early autumn day, you choose to open a window, knowing that sometimes mosquitoes come through the screen. When a mosquito does come through, you swat it.
(b) To get a small amount of convenience from not having to latch and unlatch your garden gate, you leave it open, knowing sometimes a deer comes in to eat your plants. When deer do come in, you shoot them.
These seem extremely different to me morally, although they seem deontically parallel. I think the best explanation of the difference is that deer are far more sentient than mosquitoes, both suffering more and having much more potential well-being to lose by death.
Deer are less likely to give you diseases by just touching you as well. I feel guilty killing any bug, including mosquitoes, but I have less of an issue killing mosquitoes because of the risks associated with their bites.
i've killed bugs. sometimes out of reflex, like swatting away an itch and then afterwards realizing it was a mosquito or something.
as far as ants and stuff like that i'll first try my best to put out repellents. stuff that scares them off without killing them.
but yea, i'll kill a roach or a bed bug. and i'll feel horribly guilty about it.
it's almost impossible to live a 100% harm free life. we're just doing the best we can.
You know, I’m not a vegan, but when I read stuff like this, I find it incredibly interesting. I feel absolutely nothing when I kill an insect. Aside from physical revulsion if they are “juicy” and make a mess after they get squished.
I can’t imagine ever hurting a dog though, or a cat. (Unless I was being physically attacked).
But that distinction is an interesting, and clearly subjective one.
Like I also don’t feel bad killing rodents or other “pest” creatures. Is it the classification of them as pests that lets me kill them without remorse?
Aside from the obvious disease concerns, it just feels like humans are hard wired to kill insects and pests. (Likely due to instincts around disease prevention)
Idk, makes me think about that billboard asking non-vegans where they draw the line in terms of what’s acceptable to kill for food.
I’m just rambling, but I appreciate the input!
Why would you feel worse about hurting a dog or cat than a non-pet animal? I can kind of grasp not caring if you squish a bug because they likely don’t have much conscious thought, but rodents have thoughts and feelings closer to those of cats and dogs than to insects. And when you kill rodents it’s likely by poison or trap or some other painful and distressing way to go. Do you just not really think about it?
Because dogs provide companionship and are literally bred to be “man’s best friend”.
Rodents are just pests that will never make my life better.
When I look at a dog they always make me smile. Same with cats. When I see a rodent, I immediately want it gone.
It’s not like rodents lead nice lives though. If a mouse trap or poison doesn’t kill it, an owl will rip it apart, or a snake will crush it and swallow it whole, it will die some other equally terrible death.
So, I guess I don’t think about it much? I will admit though, I think I have less empathy than vegans do, in general.
That’s something that I don’t think gets addressed often. I think vegans just have a deeper well of empathy. Which, I get. But I don’t share that empathy for what I’d consider “lesser” creatures like insects, rodents, pests, etc.
So it’s more about what the breeds you accept as pets can do for you that makes you feel they are worthy of good treatment?
In a simplistic way, I guess. You might also say their utility.
Pets provide a benefit to me. Pests, by definition, do not provide a benefit to me.
Do you feel the same way about humans?
I’m not sure what you’re asking. Do all humans provide utility to all other humans?
No, clearly not. I likely don’t benefit directly from some random person that lives on the other side of the planet.
However, humans are also clearly a different category of animals compared to insects or rodents or other animals.
I value any humans life above the life of any other animal on the planet. I think human life has more value than the life of any other species of animal. It would genuinely shock me if anyone disagrees with that.
Do you experience empathy at all?
I don’t think this comment is helpful. I’m trying to have a genuine discussion here.
Of course I have empathy. I acknowledge that I have less empathy than vegans do for animals. I’m just being self aware.
Let’s not degrade ourselves into insults, ok?
If you would like to respond to my original comment with something substantive, please do.
I think you’re really trying to unpick your feelings around the (arbitrary) distinctions you have and I appreciate your candidness.
Tbh with regards to humans - I value all human life but some more than others inasmuch that I can’t feel the same for people I don’t know as I do for my own family and friends. I feel a kind of abstract empathy for them I guess but if I felt deeply for every human on earth I would go insane.
And with animals, I do value individuals and species I “know” more than those I don’t.
So cats and dogs and horses and cows obviously. But meeting pet rats and gerbils and iguanas and spiders and land snails etc over the years has given me more empathy for those species than I otherwise would have had.
Even watching bacteria under the microscope and seeing life on that scale is fascinating and I can feel awe and empathy for the struggle of life even at that level. But I’ll still wash my hands though and I don’t feel sad about it.
I guess the “stranger is a friend you haven’t met yet” is probably truer than we think. Or I’m just a heartless sociopath. 🤷🏻♀️
TLDR: maybe get to meet some pet rodents or roaches close up and see what amazing creatures they are.
"literally bred to be"
rats could be bred that way too if we wanted them to be.
call something vermin. treat it like vermin. force it to live like vermin. then get disgusted when you see vermin in the world. in an alternate reality it could've been just as easy for man kind to breed rats into man's best friend and dogs could've been the vermin.
and you're right about us having a deeper well of empathy. but anyone is capable of that.
whats the difference between killing a large rat vs killing a small wild cat?
we call rats vermin. but that's just a word. that's a label our society put on them. some people keep rats as pets.
how do you decide the differences between vermin, food, pets, etc? because it all seems pretty arbitrary. seems like most people just go along with the labels and stigmas that other people have already put on a thing. you're right to use that billboard analogy.
personally i don't see much comparison between bugs and something like dogs or cats. i never see videos, or have personal experience, with bugs showing clear personalities. but they're still living things that serve a purpose in the ecosystem. i don't feel like i have any inherent right to decide what lives and what doesn't. and just because i don't see them having personalities doesn't mean that they don't. i don't feel like i have any inherent right to decide what has a consciousness and what doesn't.
Some people keep roaches and mice as pets, too. I have a friend with a colony of Dubia roaches.
Eh. I mean, I would kill someone’s pet rat. That’s not a pest. That’s an animal that someone is caring for.
Someone’s pet rat isn’t trying to eat my electrical wiring, you know?
I wouldn’t want to kill a wild cat, because cats kill rats, lol.
I responded below with this, but I think a lot of the determination comes from utility.
Cats/dogs directly benefit people. Rats don’t.
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It isn't practicable to sacrifice your own safety for someone else's.
Determine what species they are.
* Did you know that not all roaches are the evil invasive kind? In my region there's a native Wood Roach that only comes indoors accidentally.
* Ants: there are 15,000 species of ants worldwide. If you know what drew them to indoors, usually removing that will take away their motivation for being there.
Bedbugs, lice, fleas, and ticks can't be relocated. It becomes a self defense issue. I don't have to tell you the harm they cause to one's body, health, relationships, etc.
We had mice and sorted them with traps that caught them and we released them a few miles from home so they wouldn’t come back. We had a wasps nest in our house and paid for a professional to get rid of them, I’m all for pollinators but I don’t want wasps in my house stinging me and my toddler.
FWIW although it feels better, relocated mice have a very low survival rate, but I suppose this is better than zero. Although it could be argued that an instant death from a trap is more humane than potential slow suffering from lack of food/water/shelter. I don't know the correct answer here, is just something to consider.
I didn’t know that, thanks for educating me. Still it’s a tough decision to make. The lesser of two evils perhaps?
The default definition of veganism is
(my bold)
.
Speaking for myself:
The great majority of insects are harmless and not particularly bothersome.
I just ignore them.
(If I think that it will be beneficial for them or if they might be a minor problem for people, then I drop them outside.)
That being said, since theoretically we are not required to go beyond what is "possible and practicable", in the case of those few sorts of insects or other critters that might actually be a serious problem for people or pets, then I kill them, and I think that that is okay.
.
or specifically -
- roaches - I do kill them. I'm not particularly bothered by them, but if you ignore them then next week you'll have 100x more of them, so ...
- ants - Ignore them. I normally have ants wandering around in my kitchen.
- bedbugs - Have never had. If I did have them I would vigorously attempt to kill them.
.
/u/NostalgicFor35mm -
I skimmed your discussion here, and it looks like you have a quite humancentric viewpoint.
(Everything is from the point of view of "What would be a human's feelings about this?")
Vegans are trying to have a less humancentric viewpoint ("What would the feelings of then non-human animal in question be?")
(Most vegans don't say that the feelings of the non-human animal are the only thing of importance, but we do think that they are important.)
I would agree with that. I do think human life is intrinsically worth more than animal life.
I guess I find it hard to fathom thinking of the feelings of an ant, roach, or mouse. I don’t think they have feelings like we do. Just instincts and nervous system responses.
Racist and bigoted people have always said the same thing about other groups of people -
"I find it hard to fathom thinking or the feelings of <those other people>."
"I don’t think they have feelings like we do."
(Slave owners and racists really did used to say that.)
Vegans say that we should notice that people often think that way, and make an effort to understand that other people and other non-human animals really do have thoughts and feelings.
What are you trying to say here?
Are you seriously saying that the thoughts and feelings of a literal roach are equal to that of a human?
Because this comment has come out of left field. I’m talking about insects?
You want that to be the case, don't you? I don't see where he would have said that. He said that what you're saying (I don't have empathy for them) is and has always been the root of discrimination. The politicians and billionaires have a hard time having any empathy for the peasants. Yet, it is important to take it into account when making decisions that affect them.
If they slaughter your whole family for fun, because they can pay the lawyers and fines afterwards with no issue and they can't imagine that you, with not-a-billion, are worth anything at all, then you're in the same position that your victims are in every time you do anything that exploits non-human animals unnecessarily.
Without insects we are all dead and all life on the planet would just about be in the same boat. I do my best to kill as few as possible.
Insects and animals are worthy of living free of commodification and exploitation, defending one’s space is not either of those things. I will do my best to get insects out of my home without killing them but I truly can only do so much when I have a panic attack at the site of them like honestly usually I can’t even kill them or be around them when they’re already dead I have to get someone else to deal with it
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The rule of thumb is humans still come first. Roaches and bedbugs are not just annoying to look at. They actively harm you. So getting rid of them by any means necessary is the protocol. I will do what I can like keeping things extra clean or sealing any holes or anything. But if I have an infestation, I'm going to kill them. Not ideal, but like I said, humans come first.
Veganism is "I can never kill a living thing or I'm not a vegan anymore." It's "I make an active effort to do the least amount of harm possible." So not eating or using animal products is a pretty easy way to take care of a lot of that. Living with roaches and bedbugs is not reasonable. So it's not possible to avoid killing them.
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War is different
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They start by simply not eating them.
Depends how you define veganism.
For me, I'm against impregnating animals so that they can produce offspring into a life of suffering.
I'm not gonna skulk around the woods to kill a deer, but if a fly is bothering me? Kill 'em.
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Maybe one day, I'll be on the wrong side of history and people in some perfect future utopia will consider me a monster for killing insects the same way I feel about people slaughtering cows and chickens and dogs and cats.
I don't think that the value of an insect's lived experience is meaningful. They are well below the threshold where I will adjust or moderate my behavior to spare insects in my vicinity. I don't go around torturing them, because that's weird on a lot of levels, but I will kill them as cleanly as possible if they invade my space.
I think veganism is mostly born of an increased consideration of the potential suffering of other life. And I don't think insects have a sufficient capacity to suffer, especially in relation to how much suffering they cause in the case of mosquitos and ticks. Beyond a few cases, I don't think they show sufficient capacity to learn to indicate anything beyond basic phylogenic behavior.
So, essentially, I disagree with the premise. I don't think insects are, individually, animals worthy of protection except in so much as they are necessary for pollination. Instead, I think we should avoid inflicting systemic suffering on bees and such because of its implications for us.
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Other herbivores protect themselves, their food and their space. I do too but with as much empathy as I can.
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i was hoping that after being vegan for six years an an animal right activist i would get over my irrational fear or bugs spiders roaches ect but i haven’t. i bought a bug sucker gun for spiders to relocate them, it’s basically a vaccume where you suck them up and then can shoot them out outside. could technically use this for roaches but tbh i would just fucking kill them
I would consider getting rid of these creatures a form of self-defense. If a wild animal attacked me, I would most likely try to defend myself, just as I would if another human attacked me. Of course I don't want to hurt or kill anyone, but there are situations where I could be forced to resort to it.
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Why do you think this is a gotcha question?
You think humans are worthy of protection, right? Do you allow any human to live in your home? Do you support self-defense?
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Never had a bed bug or cockroach. I'd just put an ant outside if it came in.
The basic philosophy of veganism is to reduce harm as much as you (personally) can, within reason.
It could be argued that simply walking to your car, you’re accidentally crushing insects. Additionally, your gut biome, skin, and hair is home to untold billions of microorganisms, and acts like showering, swimming, moving, and eating different foods (or taking medicine) you’re inadvertently killing millions.
Death and suffering is unavoidable, but choosing to minimize the amount YOU are creating is kinda the bottom line.
While I will escort some helpful insects to other areas of my home (Spiders are a good example, because ironically they are very good at helping keep other harmful pests in check) I understand that termites, roaches, bedbugs, mice, fleas, flies and ants can’t cohabitate here… but it’s also my responsibility to give them less reasons to move in by keeping my house clean.
The philosophy is not complicated.
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For me personally, I don’t think the consistent life ethic is logically sound. I think it’s something that seems nice in theory but could never be reconciled with real life. I love animals so that’s a big reason for my veganism but the main reason is that factory farming (particularly under capitalism) is vile. Not only is it very cruel towards animals but the farms are festering with disease. But it can’t be contained to factory farms as we’re seeing with bird flu now. It’ll go everywhere so local meat and game won’t be safe either. Almost none of my friends are vegan or even vegetarian. I’m not evangelical about it. Long story short, killing a roach is no big deal for me. I leave a lot of other bugs be since they kill roaches. I hate roaches and mosquitoes so it’s on sight with them. Fuck em
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This is going to sound crazy but I really love ants so when they infested my house I actually made a trail of food outside leading to a huge pile of food outside and asked the ants to leave because I couldn’t bear poisoning them. The next day they were gone and never came back inside. I was so thankful !
Ants only come when there's some food left out so I dont have problems with them. If i did, id clean the place up. Roaches I've never had to deal with personally but when I have seen them infesting a place of someone that I know, it's usually bc the place is dirty or someone next door is dirty, so keeping the place clean will help with that. If it doesnt, they need to be exterminated, because they can make you very sick. Bed bugs are pests and a danger to health, so they will be immediately taken out and furniture replaced if needed, if i ever noticed them infesting. Veganism is about causing the least amount of harm as possible, so the main focus to get you and others who pay for animal exploitation to understand is that we don't need to harm them bc alternatives are available. We're not going to deliberately step on an ant but we also arent constantly watching the ground for ants either.
Personally my goal as a vegan is not to prevent all animal death, but just to reject/resist their status as property as much as I am reasonably able to. The world is unfortunately deeply entrenched in the opposite belief, so I have to accept there are limits with my one lifetime. But carnivorous animals have evolved to eat each other to survive, and that's their business, I'm human- I have evolved to think abstractly and communicate with my peers so I can replace the brutal competition of the wild with the cooperation of society and maximize my environment for the good of everyone, not just myself. I don't love killing things to protect myself, but I will if I have to, and having mixed feelings about something doesn't void my veganism, nor is it an argument in favor of using obvious animal products like meat and dairy. We don't need to be perfect before striving for an ideal (that's kind of the point of an ideal), we don't need to know how everything would ideally work in a vegan world beforehand in order to justify striving for it, and not yet knowing what it would look like is not an argument against its value as an ideal (this applies to a lot of concepts, not just veganism).
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So glad I’ve never had to find out what I’d do. The little random ones never bother me and if I have ants, they’ve ended up leaving with some preventative measures. I imagine I’d just do all it takes to make my place unappealing to them.
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