I admit that I am biased against him, but I have a hard time understanding how history could possibly see him positively. So I'll ask you all:
Do you think President Trump will truly be seen positively? If so, how? What specific actions make you think he will definitely be seen positively in 25 to 50 years from now?
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"Every society honors living conformist and dead troublemakers"
Yes, in a few decades he'll be remembered as a disruptor of the political establishment. He hasn't really lived up to that, he's sold out a lot, but the political and corporate establishments obviously still despise him.
Would you say MLK was a troublemaker or a conformist?
Not sure, I wasn't around at the time. I think he was perceived as a disruptor of the status quo when he was alive. And now he's viewed pretty much overall as a force for good.
Trump will be seen by history as a central figure in the collapse of the Liberal post-war order (and its evolved final form, the end of the History era). Whether or not he is seen as positive by history will be determined more by how the world that comes after him is judged compared to the post-war order as much as anything he did. It is far too early to judge that now; ask me again in 25-50 years.
What do you mean when you say the end of the History era?
The post fall of the Berlin wall belief that international Western Liberal Democracy is the final form of civilization and would take over the world, effectively ending history. That we have reached the end of Ideological evolution and history, as in major events (great power wars etc), is over. It was popularized by Francis Fukuyama who wrote a very famous book in the early 90's called The End of History and the Last Man. Connected to it you had things like the Golden Arches theory that suggested that no two countries with McDonalds would ever fight a war against each other. When I say the end of history era, I'm talking about that time period from 1990 to 2015ish.
If Trump is only able to pass executive orders and create no policy how with his ideas last that long? Wont the next president come in and write a bunch of new executive orders to overwrite Trumps?
I'm not talking about his executive orders. The shift in geopolitics away from post-war international liberalism is something that is global and is not based on a couple of executive orders that, when they are rescinded, will all go away.
What is stopping the next president from using the US power to exert the world back into post-war international liberalism? You seem to think Trump had a big part in the push away from it so why wouldn't the following president be able to do the same thing? Wouldn't it be as simple as going in and killing whatever government leaders we don't like and installing a puppet we do?
Ah, no it is definitely not that simple.
How did Trump accomplish this shift?
Trump has appointed 3 and possibly 4 supreme court judges changing the judicial direction of the country for a generation. He has major wins foreign policy wise that are still to be determined. If the moves made and the possible collapse of Iran causes China to blink on Taiwan, I would say he is the most important amd consequential president since at least ww2. Domestically he has done just about what you expect from a president, but if his AI gamble is successful and we enter into the world of AGI before anyone else, I would say economically he would be viewed as one of the greatest ever. People are equating the AI age to the industrial revolution that turned America into a superpower.
You have a point but there’s fundamental realities that have been shifted by trumps actions. Once the United States starts invading countries again and jettison it’s allies such that’s global cooperation declines and spheres of influence take shape, how exactly does a democrat come back into office and roll back that proverbial clock.
It’s a really tough set of questions that I think the left really needs to start discussing. What do we Really do come 2028 if a democrat is in office but we hold Greenland, Venezuela and Panama with ongoing negotiations to take Quebec or some shit. We could say just give it all back but what if that’s not feasible for whatever reason? What if we’ve already stopped policing the worlds water ways by then and it’s just too politically unpopular to start that engine up again?
Are you suggesting Trump invade our allies so he can keep his world order(legacy) going? I don’t think Trump will be able to unilaterally invade our allies as well, it’s a midterm election season so all of congress is going to be on their best behavior to try and suck more money from our dying husk.
Is this a clarifying question?(bad auto mod)
No not at all, I’m saying that world order was forming, and everyone was asking the question about the rules based order surviving or not. I’m arguing that this second trump term is and will likely be the final nail in the coffin for that rules based order based on global cooperation. Nobody thought trump would do or say half the stuff hes done and our congress has yet to really do anything to rein him in. According to the supporters here we don’t need to invade our allies we just need to negotiate for them. This is not even to mention what else could happen between now and then that could reinforce that sphere of includente model that America under trump could further endorse. There’s all this momentum rolling through geopolitics right now and I think the left and democrats have no idea how to handle it because we’re so busy trying to deal with the question of trump and how to fix ourselves. Where as republicans under trump known “exactly what to do” which is to spearhead America as a new sphere of influence and claim our rights over our part of the globe.(I do not agree with this notion that just how I see it)
2 things can be true
You can view having open borders, more crime, higher gas prices, having many wars not ended, having a weak military, as good things, which President Trump has not done to our country.
If you throw away any bias, then yes.
Humans naturally have bias. You say you yourself are a Trump supporter, so there's already a base in bias, but I see what you mean.
Could you provide examples of what he has done that will make him be viewed favorable in 20-30 years?
Do you mean bias like good is good and truth is truth?
Yes
[removed]
That's not a question. Reported.
His polls have been significantly better than Obama at the same point, who a lot of people still love. I don't know why this would be hard. And this is with a dementedly hostile, anti-conservative press, whose effects usually softens in hindsight like we've seen with Bush Jr, or the Darth Cheney's even being adopted by the Democrats.
Dont you think that the reason why he has high approval rating is because of the cult like following for Trump?
Like for example alot of republicans born in the 60-70-80s are saying they never supported the Iraq war, when it had like at the time the highest approval rating at the time it was happening. Everyone just wanted to bomb some shit.
In 20 years I do you think MAGA voters are still gonna wear the hat?
You, guys, calling, anything, cult, like, makes, me, laugh.
If libs are cult-like, does that make it ok for maga to be a cult?
Also, if dems are a cult, who's the leader?
No, and large segments of MAGA aren't a cult. From what I saw on X, about 30% of the right wing criticized Trump for bombing Iran, we've heard about the MAGA Civil War lately, right? Meanwhile, virtually zero liberals criticized Biden for his warmongering with Russia. Liberals during Obama's term gave him a pass for overthrowing Gaddafi and drone striking Yemen. It was never part of the conversation.
You don't need a leader to have a cult. You just need an ideology. The amount of disdain that liberals have for people who don't follow their ideology is light years more than MAGA has for liberals. Most (like almost every single one of us) can be friends with a non- Trump supporter who voted for Biden. Huge swaths of liberals will refuse to be friends with someone who voted against the democrats. They are, by far, the more fanatical cult.
That being said, the other 70% of Trump supporters are cultists who won't ever really criticize him.
No.
They're a hive mind.
Could you clarify on the links you provided on how they are relevant to what I mentioned in my earlier comment?
Since you harped on the cult comment, If the MAGA movement is not a cult, dont you feel that the shunning of MTG is an great example of cult like behaviour?
Where is this poll from? Every other poll shows Obama’s approval rating around 53-54% on this day in 2013. I can’t find any others that show 40 as yours does.
If you remove bias probably yes. Half the country hated Lincoln. They even started a civil war. Yet we have monuments dedicated to him and we view his presidency positively.
Do you understand WHY half of the country hated Lincoln, what the war was over, and why he is viewed positively and has monuments?
Didn't more than half the country hate Herbert Hoover, a president of independent means blamed (rightly or wrongly) for kicking off the Great Depression, through, inter alia, massive tariffs?
Hard pressed to find any positive reckoning with his legacy. Why would you associate Trump with Lincoln rather than him, in historical memory?
I'm not sure. They say "history is written by the victors" so it just depends on who is writing about him in the future. I think the "Evil Villain of the Universe" framing that the leftists/Dems use is way way off, but I also don't think Trump is super great, because he is not diplomatic enough, he has brought a certain crassness and low quality in the way he talks about things, like what he said about the murder of Rob Reiner was incredibly offensive and un-presidential. So he has brought a certain low quality in the way he speaks and the language he uses sometimes to the presidency, which isn't good. I support Trump strongly, but at the same time I do think that this is a big weakness of his, the lack of tact and diplomatic manner, and one he never seems interested in trying to fix, which is a shame.
That is why I think the next president must be much more diplomatic and traditional, because the hatred and the bad feelings that have been created in the USA between the two sides needs to be calmed down, and united, with a traditional president.
Did you ever support him very strongly?
I don't think he'll be seen positively, but the reasons depend on our values over the next several decades.
If we move to the left (Scenario A), then not much will change except that more people will adopt the already-mainstream anti-Trump views. If we move to the right (Scenario B), then he'll be appreciated for pushing us in that direction (including and especially pushing the Overton window on immigration), but people will criticize his character, inconsistent/flawed ideology, etc.
Ultimately, he's not FDR or LBJ. He's not passing transformative legislation left and right. His legacy, other than court nominations, could disappear one month into a Democratic administration. If that is his legacy, then that's a good sign that we're headed for Scenario A.
Depends on what you mean by history. In the next 10 years, probably negatively. As the most MSM have at minimum a left bias, and add in Wikipedia and google bias.
In the long term, odds are like most presidents he will be mostly forgotten and seen in a slightly favorable light. His highlights in history books will mostly be about his peace negotiations and overthrow of Maduro.
" have a hard time understanding how history could possibly see him positively."
I think this really shows how you need to follow real news and facts.
Of course trump will be remembered positively. It is a fact he has done great things for America and Americans. That is a mathematical, economical, fact.
The noise on the left/right doesn’t really match up with his actual accomplishments. If you ChatGPT what he’s accomplished in both presidencies it’s standard stuff. He’ll be seen more positively than Bush.
I doubt his rhetoric during such a divisive era will be viewed favorably. And like you said his policies are pretty standard. ICE is being enforced really aggressively and it will be interesting to see how his foreign policy is judged. I think Jan 6 won’t be viewed favorably but, remarkably, half the country doesn’t care. Would you agree?
Edit - forgot he’s a rapist too
Obama deported more than Trump. The negative perception is more media coverage than anything.
Oh I was more so talking about ICE’s tactics not necessarily referring to deportation statistics. Where did you get that from?
I agree. People who will vote Democrat no matter what.. those people are triggered intensely by the remembrance of J6. The rest of the country doesn't care. They witnessed 2 straight months of rioting, property destruction, and taking an "autonomous zone" in Seattle like 6 months prior. It's not lost on anybody that all the whining about two hours of criminal trespassing at the Capitol is just political grandstanding.
Oh well everything you said about the left was self organized by the people, not the Democratic Party. Trump specifically organized and orchestrated Jan 6. He incited the rioters. And the riots on the left didn’t attempt to overthrow the federal government like the Jan 6 rioters. Why do you call it trespassing when they also attacked police officers, destroyed property and represent the first time we didn’t have a peaceful transfer of power? Why just call it trespassing when the rioters pleaded guilty to more egregious crimes from that day? And could you provide evidence of voter fraud on a scale large enough to overturn the 2020 election? Been waiting on someone to answer that last question for 5 years now
Trump organized a rally and very explicitly, multiple times, instructed people not to get violent. He did not incite anybody to break in to the Capitol. These are all facts that liberals don't seem to want to acknowledge.
Again, this is the lens that normal people view J6.
Then you have the people who vote Democrat no matter what. They like to make it something way bigger than it was.
You can say he was irresponsible and petulant in pushing the election claims, but libs seem to have an inability to just take the small wins, so they pretend Trump was attempting to overthrow the government in a violent coup.
Personally I don't think the election was stolen. And I think J6 was dumb, and anyone who entered through a broken window should be arrested. But anyone who walked in, peacefully demonstrated, and left, should not be. But the libs haven't shut up about it for 5 years, even though they obviously riot way more often.
To the victor go the spoils. Trump will be remembered favorably if his time in office is seen as something to be built upon, rather than rolled back.
Right now, the party is aligned on continuing Trump's legacy, afaik. We'll see what happens after 2028 though. I'm guessing that if a Trump ally becomes the next Republican president, Trump will be remembered positively for the massive shift he made in American politics. If someone in opposition to Trump becomes the next Republican president, he'll likely be remembered as a failure.
Of course, I don't think the left will ever look back fondly on him. Maybe if we invent time travel so we can elect literal-Hitler. But even then probably not.
I think so, right now he's polling better than Obama was during his 2nd term in office.
That's always gonna be a tough pill for left-wing armchair revisionists to swallow, that the most beloved left wing president in decades polled lower than Trump at various different points in their presidency...
So sure, I think in a variety of aspects he'll be viewed positively, mostly as it relates to cutting back on certain superfluous government programs, lowering taxes for the middle class, and pressing a strong America first foreign policy agenda.
What polls are you looking at?
Rcp average