Although Caracas borders the Caribbean, it isn’t directly on the coast and is separated by a mountain range. Would you still consider it a Caribbean city? If so, it would be the largest city in the Caribbean.
Yes. Honestly these questions need to be placed in their own megathread about "what do you think is geographically the caribbean" and ppl can comment the regions in question, because this is getting repetitive.
Venezuela and Northern Colombia are as similar to DR, Cuba and Puerto Rico as Belize and Guyana are to Jamaica or Trinidad, so yes, I consider Venezuelans as Caribbean
They’re Caribbean, most Venezuelans identify as Caribbean, they have the most extensive Caribbean coastline of any country, coastal Venezuelans are very similar to us (Cuba, Jamaica, Haiti, DR, PR, Trini, etc)
They are Caribbean, same as the Bahamas, and the Bahamas geographically speaking is not a part of the Caribbean Basin, but culturally, historically, musically and food they’re very close
Yes. Caracas culture, language, food, music, and other cultural markers are Caribbean. Not being directly on the coast doesn’t make it any less of a Caribbean city. Most caraqueños (and this also applies to cities near but not on the sea, like Valencia, Barquisimeto, Maracay, and others) have strong cultural ties to the ocean. Most people I know, myself included, grew up spending every summer by the sea, and going to the beach every fucking weekend is deeply ingrained in our culture. I’ll never understand the need to gatekeep Caribbean culture.
You're also incorrect that about the geography. Venezuela is a Caribbean country as all of its coast is bordering the Caribbean Sea, 3/4 of its population lives on or extremely close to the coast, and Carcas is within that border
If Venezuela isn't Caribbeam then Belize, Suriname, French Guiana, and Guyana aren't Caribbean either. In fact, the Guyanas objectively are not even bordering the Caribbean Sea. The end of the Caribbean Sea functionally stops at the end of Venezuela's most eastward coastal point.
1) Caracas is not located ON the Caribbean coast. So geographically it is NOT Caribbean.
2) 3/4 of the populations lives in VALLEYS separated from the Caribbean Sea by mountains and that distinction is geographically and historically important. Caracas and San Pedro Sula, Honduras are located in similar distances from the Caribbean Sea and you’re telling me that one is Caribbean while the other is not (and is not)?
3) The whataboutism is ridiculous. All of those countries’ cities are located on the coast because the rest of the country is literally rainforest. Those countries have a monolithic Caribbean culture while Venezuela does not.
And? Do you see how extremely close it is to the coast? And the reason why it's not particularly is because of how mountainous it is. I believe it quite literally is nestled between mountains.
And by this logic of "oh well it's not Caribbean because it's not on the coast" would imply that, say, Guyanese people who do not live in Georgetown or coastal cities, such as even ever-so-slightly inland like Carcas are not Caribbean by your logic as well
Let's take Linden, Guyana for example. Guyana's second most populous town which is way more inland than Caracas. Go tell the folks from there they aren't Caribbean and they are instead "South American" and see how that fares for you
I would say parts of Honduras are Caribbean, just like Colombia. The coastal regions of Honduras, Nicaragua, Guatemala, etc. have places that are distinct from the more inland culture which all of their capitals are on the opposite side of the country and closer to the Pacific Ocean than the Atlantic. The Caribbean regions of all of those countries have cultural and linguistic differences from the 'mainstream' culture such as speaking English creole and garifuna (a language from St. Vincent). Wouldn't be surprised if they also speak Caribbean Spanish there too
That's not a whataboutism, it's testing the boundaries of your logic and showing how it's folly. For more or less the same reasons VE is not Caribbean those regions would not be Caribbean either. And I'm not sure what you mean about Venezuelans not having a monolithic Caribbean culture
Like have you actually ever talked South Americans, like Peruvians, Chileans, Argentinians, etc.? They are they first to tell you that they not only call Venezuelans caribeños but they also do not see them as culturally similar at all. They are othered basically to the same degree as Haitians
I'm Venezuelan myself and I don't think we are Caribeños. We do have some Caribbean influence but calling Venezuelans Caribeños is a bit simplistic. We do have Amazonas, andes and llanos, so culturally we also share costums with other countries of South America. I think Venezuela is a melting pot. Not to mention Venezuela received a lot of European inmigrants so we got influence from everywhere.
Personally I feel Venezuelans and Argentineans have things in common we are both very outspoken and direct. There is a reason we get along. With Peru and Chile has to do more with an immigration issue.
It doesn’t matter how close it is to the coast it is not located on the coast and is therefore not geographically Caribbean. La Guaira, Coro, Catia La Mar, are coastal, Caracas is not. Linden is not geographically Caribbean either.
Honduras has cities that are geographically Caribbean. Culturally the culture of the mestizo majority does not differ much from more inland Hondurans other than being located in proximity to the coast. The Garifuna and English speaking creoles make up ethnic minorities in Honduras so there culture is obviously distinct and remote, not to mention that these groups are descended from Caribbean islanders in the first place.
I have never said Venezuelan doesn’t have a Caribbean region. I said Caracas is not geographically Caribbean by virtue of not being located on the Caribbean Sea. It is culturally Caribbean. Venezuela is not monolithically Caribbean because it has regions that are Andean, Amazonian, and Llanero that are culturally continuous with regions in other countries. This sets it apart from the Guyanas and Suriname who are monolithically Caribbean.
I don’t care what Peruvians and Chileans think. They would probably say the same thing about Colombians, Ecuadorians, and Panamanians.
Point me to a dictionary definition that says anything about something being Caribbean has to have their capital city on the coast. This is also a conversation about identity, so it's a conversation involving both culture as well as geography. For places like VE and GY they are both Caribbean culturally and geographically while also being geographically South American as well. It's not one or the other; saying a place is Caribbean and South American are not mutually exclusive
see the above point. Pay heed to where I said parts of
Again, you are ignoring the fact that 3/4 of Venezuela's population lives in a particular region. The other regions you are bringing up are barely inhabited. Colombia is more accurate to your point of a fragmented identity due to how populated those other regions are 1% of VE's population lives in the Amazon region. Less than 1/8 lives in the Llanero region. The remainder of the fourth lives in the Andean region. And truthfully you are harping on really weird distinctions that don't mean much. Suriname for example is probably the most culturally diverse and least homogenous Caribbean nation in the region not just in demographics but also culture but just because they are diverse doesn't mean they aren't Caribbean. The way an Indo-Surinamese is culturally is very different than, say, someone who is Maroon.
You should, because you keep insisting that Venezuelans "feel South American" meanwhile pretty much the entire continent firmly disagrees with you there. Venezuelans uniformly are called caribeños, not just certain ones. They also do not call Ecuadorians or (most) Colombians Caribbean either or other them like that too
You said they are culturally South American and you're ignoring how other South Americans instead say they are Caribbean. You're being very obtuse
Omg thank you!. you are the only sane me person here like I'm seriously sick of tired of that label people have about us. Not like is a bad thing but it's feels not as accurate. Venezuelans culturally are super diverse.
As I said in another post, parts of them, yes. Especially the Central American countries. Many of them even have Caribbean Autonomous Zones and even speak different languages because of the cultural differences (i.e. patois, garifuna)
Parts of Mexico even speaks in a Caribbean Spanish dialect
Caracas doesn’t really feel like cities such as Bogotá or Santiago de Chile. To me, it has much more in common with a Brazilian city like Sao Paulo or Rio de Janeiro, often combined.
I mean that’s kinda a given Bogotá and Santiago are not located in tropical climates. Cartagena is much more similar to San Juan and is actually located on the Caribbean Sea.
I don’t consider really consider making salsa music that significant of a contribution tbh. There are Peruvian, Nicaraguan, and even Japanese salseros.
Tell me quickly what cultural contributions you know that people from Suriname, French Guiana, and Belize have made to the Caribbean for them to be called Caribbean nations.
The topic is about Venezuela's Caribbean-ness in general, in which Zep was also responding to as well
Your question of asking "who?" especially with an Lol. seemed to be rhetorical to try and make a point against their Caribbean-ness because you aren't aware of their contributions, which is why I asked you to quickly name me the contributions those three places have had on Caribbean culture overall (or even parts of it) since I assume you classify them as Caribbean places.
And truthfully, a place doesn't need to be contributing to Caribbean culture. It just needs to exist in it. You probably can't tell me what Anguilla has done to contribute to Caribbean culture but you wouldn't deny their Caribbean-ness.
why do you want Venezuelans be Caribbean so bad? trust me there are Venezuelans that don't see themselves fully Caribeean ( me included) they don't openly say it but those Venezuelans exist. We are a mix of races and cultures. WE are bit of everything.
Venezuela is a very diverse country and we got influences from different cultures considering we are a very multicultural country. it's a disservice to only to label Venezuelans as Caribbean. We are also South Americans
You're in a topic asking is Venezuela (or Caracas) Venezuelan or not and making a weird accusatory tone as if I brought the subject up. You might want to read the topic in regards to what we're talking about. Venezuela's non-Caribbean regions, such as the Amazon region, are a lot more sparsely populated and only account for 25% of the population. The one I just mentioned literally only has 1% of the population. Your assertion that it must be uniformly Caribbean would preclude a bunch of Caribbean nations.
I can very easily say because a country like Belize has indigenous people who might not speak English--especially close to the Mexican border--as well as have groups like Mennonites that speak a German dialect means they aren't Caribbean. Or that because they're in Central America means they aren't Caribbean, as if being Caribbean and something else are mutually exclusive.
Whether or not they identify as Caribbean is a bit besides the point as most folks are going to foremost if only identify with their nationality. Pan-Caribbean identity isn't really a thing especially outside of the anglo-caribbean and outside of diasporas. Haitians (actually in Haiti, not the diaspora) for example think of themselves first, second, and third as Haitian and not Caribbean. Doesn't mean they aren't Caribbean just because it's not foremost on their mind if at all
Guyana and Suriname are also South Americans too. Being Caribbean and South American (or something else) are not mutually exclusive.
Venezuela is highly diverse though so culturally speaking it's more complex than just reduce Venezuela to being a Caribbean country.. Not to mention that Venezuela shares significant portions of the Andean mountain range and the Amazon rainforest with other South American countries and the plains ( with Colombia), You can't compare Guyana and Suriname that don't even speak the same language than us or share similar history. They have more in common with African countries culturally. Venezuela is literally a metling pot and more importantly an Spanish speaking country that relates more with South American country than ( Guyana or Suriname)
On planet earth is all you need to know. You need to try something else
Never said Venezuela was monolithic. Never said it's only Caribbean in culture; many other Caribbean nations aren't either, yet you make that assumption as if Venezuela is unique. And the comparison is just because you brought up geography of Venezuela being also South American as if that means anything and you can only be Caribbean and nothing else. Culturally Guyana and especially Suriname are just as if not more diverse or mixed than Venezuela, especially Suriname as the plurality of both countries are Asian, not afrodescendants. They really aren't similar to any African countries at all; they're their own unique thing. There's not one country in Africa that is similar at all to especially Suriname as an example.
Venezuelans generally would have more in common with Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, and Cubans than Chileans or Argentinians despite the latter two being on the same mainland continent.
African ancestry is more evenly distributed among Venezuelans than in either of those countries, actually
I wouldn't be surprised if you are Domincan because Dominicans have an obsession with calling us and labeling us Caribeños. They think we are exactly like them
Girl , you are showing your ignorance that's what Chileans got it wrong with the stereotype about Venezuelans. I thought you would be better than that. just because many Venezuelans of lower income migrated to these countries doesn't mean all Venezuelans are dark. if anything majority of Venezuelans are mestizos. Most middle class tend to be white or light skinned because Venezuelan literally had a lot of European immigrants ( Portuguese, italians and Spanish). Venezuela situation is unique because of Economic crisis and the Venezuelan regime that mostly pushed and segregated the middle and upper class in Venezuela. Didn't you notice that most Venezuelans influencers or part of the diaspora speaking to the American media about Venezuela's situations are white or light skinned? that's the type of Venezuelan that mostly migrated to either Europe or the US and the people that I personally grew up with. Whenever I hear a racist comment about Venezuela. I'm like that's not what all of us look like.
I don't think race is an issue I personally never payed attention until people started to bring it up and use it an an stereotype about venezuelans but it's not real accurate or a real representation about us. Venezuelans can look like anything there isn't a type. a blonde, indegienous, mulato/a, mestizo/a or even asian can be a Venezuelan person
Venezuelan's novelas could be a good representation of Venezuelan's ethnicity that's what most middle class looked like then. Sure, we had brown people that's is where the stereotype comes from ( probably a lot had to do because we had a massive Colombian inmigrants from la costa) but also can be white. but mostly mestizo from every skin tone from tan to light skinned people. Not to mention we did have also immigrants from Syria and Libano. We are very diverse. WE literally are the third country with most Iltalians outside Italy. Asians are not as big but in the last decades Chinese inmigrants have grown
You seriously are telling me Suriname don't have more african descent? lol Please in what world they are whiter than Venezuela? plus having more Indians and chinese doesn't make them whiter than Venezuela that had bigger European immigrants. it's not like Suriname don't have people of african descent
Venezuela is mestizo with a sprinkle of European. it's literally one of the most mixed countries I've seen.
also I checked Suriname and while they have many ethinc groups but they have more direct African descend than Venezuelans. Venezuelans are more mixed bc their african ancestry is lower because of mestizaje plus they have higher European ancestry than people from Surinam. Surinam people have more indian and Chinese but very lower of European ancestry.
Yeah because I don’t particularly consider someone from a certain country making music in a certain genre to be culturally significant. If Oscar d’Leon never made salsa it wouldn’t create a void in Hispanic Caribbean culture. Similarly people of different countries such as Peru making salsa doesn’t exactly contribute to Hispanic Caribbean culture. So once again what is the contribution here? That he made music? So did dozens of others. And for the record I consider myself a fan of Oscar D’Leon.
You were asking that rhetorical question to use your incredulity as a citation for why they aren't Caribbean before Zep even brought up that point (the musician)
There are actual things to say about Venezuela's contributions but again, I do firmly believe no nation has to "prove" their Caribbean-ness by being """"""useful""""".
Tell me what a place like Anguilla has done to contribute to any sub-category of Caribbean culture (i.e. anglo-caribbean culture) to validate their Caribbean identity
Or Montserrat. Or Dominica. Or St. Kitts. Quickly, tell me.
I was genuinely curious to see what the contribution Zep could come up with not out of incredulity considering I do in fact consider regions of Venezuela geographically and culturally Caribbean but out of curiosity for what exactly Venezuela has contributed to general Hispanic Caribbean culture and I added my two cents, which is that I don’t consider someone to making music in a particular genre to be culturally significant. You’re splitting hairs and I’m trying to understand how someone making salsa is culturally significant and no one is coming up with an answer.
Again, 3/4 of VE's population lives basically on the coast or extremely near it, so there isn't that sort of cultural divide you're talking about where it's a very mixed bag like Colombia where some parts are culturally Caribbean and some around. The overwhelming majority of Venezuela's inland population is bare in population if not just functionally not inhabited. If at least 3/4 of a country's population participates in one culture--which is Caribbean culture--that is showing cultural hegemony and a general cultural expectation of what said person from that country is going to be like. The more inland people in Venezuela tend to be indigenous people
VE has had historical ties to the ABC Islands as well as Trinidad. And this is a post that talked more about economic trades where Venezuela is involved in the Caribbean. Venezuela is also an observer of CARICOM too (no one's ever going to let them be a member with their current situation the past few years). Culturally they are in the same exact spectrum as PR, DR, and Cuba in regards to both dialect, traditions, as well as food culture too. They really are not "South American" like you're insisting they are. They are as culturally South American as Surinamese folks are.
It's not really a personal matter at this point. Venezuela literally is Caribbean. It's like saying I don't consider Bajans to be Caribbean because I don't like them (I don't dislike you guys just first example that came to my mind)
I also don't consider mere musical contributions to be enough either. I also never defended that person for saying it.
Yep but for some odd reason here people have a bone to pick with Venezuelans and I don't get why. It's also weird seeing a Trini in this thread say how Venezuelans aren't Caribbean as if their island nation isn't quite literally almost bordering Venezuela's coast
I really don't see how people don't see Venezuela is in the same cultural spectrum as the DR and PR. Maybe they don't know Venezuelans but I've met them and seen how they interact with Dominicans, Cubans, and Puerto Ricans and it's quite literally just siblings from the same set of parents. The Spanish Venezuelans speak is still Caribbean Spanish too
Yeah, Venezuelans have a bad rep worldwide, it’s not just here….
In Latino subs they get sh*tted on a lot, many hate them and want them gone from their countries ( Peru, Colombia, Chile, US and Mexico)
But much more in Peru, Colombia and Chile, Chileans HATE Venezuelans to death, and hate Caribbean people overall.
From their POV we’re uncivilized, brown/black monkeys who can’t behave and need to be terminated.
It’s pretty bad , I wanted to visit Chile (one day), but I’m having second guesses, and I’m sure I’ll face less hate crime, racism and hurdles then other Caribbean brothers and sisters
Oh yea the way that Venezuelans are seen in the rest of Latin America is very reminiscent of how Haitian refugees are treated. And it's good you mention that because there are people who are saying that Venezuela, instead of being culturally Caribbean, is instead "South American" in culture but the rest of South America (except maybe some Colombians) is the first to tell you that they not only refer to Venezuelans as caribeños but also do not culturally relate to them
I've seen a glimpse of the hatred Venezuelans get by Chileans. Last year I saw an ad in Chile of this mixed or black woman with a white child (idk what the purpose of the ad was for) and it went viral with Chileans complaining about it, particularly saying stuff like "get that Venezuelan woman off our tv she does not represent us"
Yeah, I love my Latino American homies and brothers due to our history, language and mixing
But damn, South Cone is pretty bad, ironically Argentinians and Uruguayans are pretty chill with Venezuelans
It’s Chileans, but I’ve heard the “why” , and I can understand them in a sense. It’s because Venezuelans in Chile tend to commit crimes, rob, heinous acts, liter, etc.
Add the fact that Chile and Venezuela are culturally very different, Chileans tend to be more xenophobic to others and racist too, and it adds to the fuel of a very niche and specific bunch of Venezuelans that do bad things, and sadly the rest of them pay for the crimes too that they didn’t commit.
Belize, Guyana, and Suriname are one thing. Only Caribbean from a cultural and civilization perspective. Venzuela and Columbia, and other countries are not JUST caribbean, but also latin american, and south american, so they are not one thing.
It's not really about race or language, it's just about the fact that there's more ambiguity because these countries have more layers and associations that are more multifcated.
For Colombia, a lot of their population is more spread out and only a portion (not the majority) live in their Caribbean departments, so for Colombia I agree. Venezuela on the other hand 3/4 of its population live on or near its Caribbean coast and the rest of live more inland, so it is by far more culturally Caribbean
But yes Venezuela, just like PR and DR, is also Latin American. But Venezuela is also South American just like Guyana is too
The rest of South America (Peruvians, Chileans, Argentinians) etc. are not shy about othering Venezuelans such as calling them caribeños and how culturally dissimilar they are, so the notion they are largely "South American" in culture (whatever that means) is disagreed on by actual South Americans
It's not really an opinion at this point, it's almost objective. Their reason for excluding VE from being Caribbean precludes other nations they would call Caribbean and when pointed out they ignore it or move goalposts and don't address their folly logic
Never did I say we do, but to reply to you European colonies don’t get to decide either. Venezuela is not a Caribbean nation, they border the sea that’s it. Edit * also we aren’t British we have had independence for quite sometime.
No hate for them either, they just aren’t part of the Caribbean. The venes in Trini came illegally, and they been kidnapping our fishermen for years before this US intervention.
Por qué insisten tanto algunos miembros de este sub en "depurar" al Caribe de todo lo que no se parezca a ellos? Conocen la palabra racismo? Y no me vengan con el tema de muH cULtuRaL aPpRoPLayStAtiOn because that is an old card that doesn't work anymore. If only people looked into the things that we have in common and appreciated this little blue rock as the home of all, things would be entirely different. Well, a dude can always dream as long as you ain't got to pay for it, right?
Panama is very Caribbean, they look like us (Dominicans, Cubans and Puerto Ricans), we even took Spanish Reggae (as influence) from them to make Reggaetón.
Spanish Reggae arrived at Panama via Jamaica, which is Caribbean too
Overall Panama is the most Caribbean of the Central American countries, Belize and Honduras too.
Costa Rica and Nicaragua have Caribbean coast, flair,culture, but it’s very regional specific, more niche
Guatemala and El Salvador don’t have Caribbean coast, and Mexico does, but apparently they don’t identify with us, and are very distant culturally
It slipped my mind that Panama was in Central America. I do consider Panama closer than the others though. To me, when I think of the Caribbean I think DR, PR, Cuba, the Anglo islands. Then Venezuela. Everything after Venezuela is iffy to me on if it’s *caribbean. But I think this sub takes “Caribbeanness” too seriously
To me Venezuela is Caribbean, many Venezuelans identify as Caribbean, they have the longest Caribbean coastline, many of them sound indistinguishable from us lol. We behave alike (typical Caribbean, loud, warm, love a good vibe, very extroverted, hot/spicy flair, swag etc)
Colombians from the north part are Caribbean too, cause a Colombian from Barranquilla is nowhere near the same as one from Bogotá or Medellín, they don’t appear to be people from the same country lol , same as inland Venezuelans from the ones near the coast
Yes, coastal Venezuelans are veryyy Caribbean. IMO it’s nonsense to consider Guyana Caribbean if Venezuela is not. But also-indistinguishable… not really. Yes our accents in the Caribbean are closer, but I know a Dominican accent and Venezuelans have a different way of speaking although very closely related to us on the islands. Even PRcans and Dominicans have notable differences to my ears, I can tell a PRcan and Dominican apart.
As a Panamanian I would not consider Panama to be Caribbean culturally, only in certain parts (Colon, parts of Panama City, Bocas del toro). The rest of the country feels very Central American to me.
Unpopular opinion, no. I consider “Caribbean”, the Caribbean islands. Sure Colombia and Venezuela have Caribbean influence, but they are not Caribbean.
Lol they keep trying to bring down my venezuelan brothers😭
Yes. Honestly these questions need to be placed in their own megathread about "what do you think is geographically the caribbean" and ppl can comment the regions in question, because this is getting repetitive.
This sub is really funny 🤣 24 days before: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskTheCaribbean/s/x65ofIVrV4
Venezuela and Northern Colombia are as similar to DR, Cuba and Puerto Rico as Belize and Guyana are to Jamaica or Trinidad, so yes, I consider Venezuelans as Caribbean
They’re Caribbean, most Venezuelans identify as Caribbean, they have the most extensive Caribbean coastline of any country, coastal Venezuelans are very similar to us (Cuba, Jamaica, Haiti, DR, PR, Trini, etc)
They are Caribbean, same as the Bahamas, and the Bahamas geographically speaking is not a part of the Caribbean Basin, but culturally, historically, musically and food they’re very close
AGAIN?
I personally never considered it Caribbean. For me it is more a geographical/environmental than a political definition.
Venezuela is geographically part of the Caribbean. The Caribbean isn't only islands in the sea
Yes but Technically Sto. Domingo is the largest Carib city. And first colony I think.
DR n1 woohoo
Yes
Yes. Caracas culture, language, food, music, and other cultural markers are Caribbean. Not being directly on the coast doesn’t make it any less of a Caribbean city. Most caraqueños (and this also applies to cities near but not on the sea, like Valencia, Barquisimeto, Maracay, and others) have strong cultural ties to the ocean. Most people I know, myself included, grew up spending every summer by the sea, and going to the beach every fucking weekend is deeply ingrained in our culture. I’ll never understand the need to gatekeep Caribbean culture.
Geographically speaking no
but culturally isn't Caracas more similar to Puerto Rico?
Not in the way you think. It feels distinctively South American.
Define what is "South American"
You're also incorrect that about the geography. Venezuela is a Caribbean country as all of its coast is bordering the Caribbean Sea, 3/4 of its population lives on or extremely close to the coast, and Carcas is within that border
If Venezuela isn't Caribbeam then Belize, Suriname, French Guiana, and Guyana aren't Caribbean either. In fact, the Guyanas objectively are not even bordering the Caribbean Sea. The end of the Caribbean Sea functionally stops at the end of Venezuela's most eastward coastal point.
1) Caracas is not located ON the Caribbean coast. So geographically it is NOT Caribbean.
2) 3/4 of the populations lives in VALLEYS separated from the Caribbean Sea by mountains and that distinction is geographically and historically important. Caracas and San Pedro Sula, Honduras are located in similar distances from the Caribbean Sea and you’re telling me that one is Caribbean while the other is not (and is not)?
3) The whataboutism is ridiculous. All of those countries’ cities are located on the coast because the rest of the country is literally rainforest. Those countries have a monolithic Caribbean culture while Venezuela does not.
https://preview.redd.it/tda9zm6tm8cg1.png?width=1639&format=png&auto=webp&s=42fa916f9e3b53e02c7c47592720ee1f8f76de27
And by this logic of "oh well it's not Caribbean because it's not on the coast" would imply that, say, Guyanese people who do not live in Georgetown or coastal cities, such as even ever-so-slightly inland like Carcas are not Caribbean by your logic as well
Let's take Linden, Guyana for example. Guyana's second most populous town which is way more inland than Caracas. Go tell the folks from there they aren't Caribbean and they are instead "South American" and see how that fares for you
I would say parts of Honduras are Caribbean, just like Colombia. The coastal regions of Honduras, Nicaragua, Guatemala, etc. have places that are distinct from the more inland culture which all of their capitals are on the opposite side of the country and closer to the Pacific Ocean than the Atlantic. The Caribbean regions of all of those countries have cultural and linguistic differences from the 'mainstream' culture such as speaking English creole and garifuna (a language from St. Vincent). Wouldn't be surprised if they also speak Caribbean Spanish there too
That's not a whataboutism, it's testing the boundaries of your logic and showing how it's folly. For more or less the same reasons VE is not Caribbean those regions would not be Caribbean either. And I'm not sure what you mean about Venezuelans not having a monolithic Caribbean culture
Like have you actually ever talked South Americans, like Peruvians, Chileans, Argentinians, etc.? They are they first to tell you that they not only call Venezuelans caribeños but they also do not see them as culturally similar at all. They are othered basically to the same degree as Haitians
I'm Venezuelan myself and I don't think we are Caribeños. We do have some Caribbean influence but calling Venezuelans Caribeños is a bit simplistic. We do have Amazonas, andes and llanos, so culturally we also share costums with other countries of South America. I think Venezuela is a melting pot. Not to mention Venezuela received a lot of European inmigrants so we got influence from everywhere.
Personally I feel Venezuelans and Argentineans have things in common we are both very outspoken and direct. There is a reason we get along. With Peru and Chile has to do more with an immigration issue.
Where are you from?
It doesn’t matter how close it is to the coast it is not located on the coast and is therefore not geographically Caribbean. La Guaira, Coro, Catia La Mar, are coastal, Caracas is not. Linden is not geographically Caribbean either.
Honduras has cities that are geographically Caribbean. Culturally the culture of the mestizo majority does not differ much from more inland Hondurans other than being located in proximity to the coast. The Garifuna and English speaking creoles make up ethnic minorities in Honduras so there culture is obviously distinct and remote, not to mention that these groups are descended from Caribbean islanders in the first place.
I have never said Venezuelan doesn’t have a Caribbean region. I said Caracas is not geographically Caribbean by virtue of not being located on the Caribbean Sea. It is culturally Caribbean. Venezuela is not monolithically Caribbean because it has regions that are Andean, Amazonian, and Llanero that are culturally continuous with regions in other countries. This sets it apart from the Guyanas and Suriname who are monolithically Caribbean.
I don’t care what Peruvians and Chileans think. They would probably say the same thing about Colombians, Ecuadorians, and Panamanians.
Point me to a dictionary definition that says anything about something being Caribbean has to have their capital city on the coast. This is also a conversation about identity, so it's a conversation involving both culture as well as geography. For places like VE and GY they are both Caribbean culturally and geographically while also being geographically South American as well. It's not one or the other; saying a place is Caribbean and South American are not mutually exclusive
see the above point. Pay heed to where I said parts of
Again, you are ignoring the fact that 3/4 of Venezuela's population lives in a particular region. The other regions you are bringing up are barely inhabited. Colombia is more accurate to your point of a fragmented identity due to how populated those other regions are 1% of VE's population lives in the Amazon region. Less than 1/8 lives in the Llanero region. The remainder of the fourth lives in the Andean region. And truthfully you are harping on really weird distinctions that don't mean much. Suriname for example is probably the most culturally diverse and least homogenous Caribbean nation in the region not just in demographics but also culture but just because they are diverse doesn't mean they aren't Caribbean. The way an Indo-Surinamese is culturally is very different than, say, someone who is Maroon.
You should, because you keep insisting that Venezuelans "feel South American" meanwhile pretty much the entire continent firmly disagrees with you there. Venezuelans uniformly are called caribeños, not just certain ones. They also do not call Ecuadorians or (most) Colombians Caribbean either or other them like that too
You said they are culturally South American and you're ignoring how other South Americans instead say they are Caribbean. You're being very obtuse
Omg thank you!. you are the only sane me person here like I'm seriously sick of tired of that label people have about us. Not like is a bad thing but it's feels not as accurate. Venezuelans culturally are super diverse.
Mexico, Honduras and Costa Rica have access to the Caribbean sea, would you consider them Caribbean too?
As I said in another post, parts of them, yes. Especially the Central American countries. Many of them even have Caribbean Autonomous Zones and even speak different languages because of the cultural differences (i.e. patois, garifuna)
Parts of Mexico even speaks in a Caribbean Spanish dialect
Si si niña, todos hablamos como el cangrejo Sebastian…
Caracas doesn’t really feel like cities such as Bogotá or Santiago de Chile. To me, it has much more in common with a Brazilian city like Sao Paulo or Rio de Janeiro, often combined.
I mean that’s kinda a given Bogotá and Santiago are not located in tropical climates. Cartagena is much more similar to San Juan and is actually located on the Caribbean Sea.
Yeah, they even have a castle that resembles El Morro too
It’s almost like people think that listening to salsa and merengue = Caribbean.
I would say it is culturally Caribbean. Historically, people from there have made significant contributions to Hispanic Caribbean culture.
Like who? Lol.
Oscar De León
I don’t consider really consider making salsa music that significant of a contribution tbh. There are Peruvian, Nicaraguan, and even Japanese salseros.
Venezuelan salseros are some of the best and most influential in the space though.
Making salsa music is one thing, being an essential part of it is another
Tell me quickly what cultural contributions you know that people from Suriname, French Guiana, and Belize have made to the Caribbean for them to be called Caribbean nations.
We’re talking specifically about HISPANIC CARIBBEAN culture. What does Suriname or Guyana have to do with Hispanic Caribbean culture?
The topic is about Venezuela's Caribbean-ness in general, in which Zep was also responding to as well
Your question of asking "who?" especially with an Lol. seemed to be rhetorical to try and make a point against their Caribbean-ness because you aren't aware of their contributions, which is why I asked you to quickly name me the contributions those three places have had on Caribbean culture overall (or even parts of it) since I assume you classify them as Caribbean places.
And truthfully, a place doesn't need to be contributing to Caribbean culture. It just needs to exist in it. You probably can't tell me what Anguilla has done to contribute to Caribbean culture but you wouldn't deny their Caribbean-ness.
why do you want Venezuelans be Caribbean so bad? trust me there are Venezuelans that don't see themselves fully Caribeean ( me included) they don't openly say it but those Venezuelans exist. We are a mix of races and cultures. WE are bit of everything.
Venezuela is a very diverse country and we got influences from different cultures considering we are a very multicultural country. it's a disservice to only to label Venezuelans as Caribbean. We are also South Americans
You're in a topic asking is Venezuela (or Caracas) Venezuelan or not and making a weird accusatory tone as if I brought the subject up. You might want to read the topic in regards to what we're talking about. Venezuela's non-Caribbean regions, such as the Amazon region, are a lot more sparsely populated and only account for 25% of the population. The one I just mentioned literally only has 1% of the population. Your assertion that it must be uniformly Caribbean would preclude a bunch of Caribbean nations.
I can very easily say because a country like Belize has indigenous people who might not speak English--especially close to the Mexican border--as well as have groups like Mennonites that speak a German dialect means they aren't Caribbean. Or that because they're in Central America means they aren't Caribbean, as if being Caribbean and something else are mutually exclusive.
Whether or not they identify as Caribbean is a bit besides the point as most folks are going to foremost if only identify with their nationality. Pan-Caribbean identity isn't really a thing especially outside of the anglo-caribbean and outside of diasporas. Haitians (actually in Haiti, not the diaspora) for example think of themselves first, second, and third as Haitian and not Caribbean. Doesn't mean they aren't Caribbean just because it's not foremost on their mind if at all
Guyana and Suriname are also South Americans too. Being Caribbean and South American (or something else) are not mutually exclusive.
where are you from?
Venezuela is highly diverse though so culturally speaking it's more complex than just reduce Venezuela to being a Caribbean country.. Not to mention that Venezuela shares significant portions of the Andean mountain range and the Amazon rainforest with other South American countries and the plains ( with Colombia), You can't compare Guyana and Suriname that don't even speak the same language than us or share similar history. They have more in common with African countries culturally. Venezuela is literally a metling pot and more importantly an Spanish speaking country that relates more with South American country than ( Guyana or Suriname)
On planet earth is all you need to know. You need to try something else
Never said Venezuela was monolithic. Never said it's only Caribbean in culture; many other Caribbean nations aren't either, yet you make that assumption as if Venezuela is unique. And the comparison is just because you brought up geography of Venezuela being also South American as if that means anything and you can only be Caribbean and nothing else. Culturally Guyana and especially Suriname are just as if not more diverse or mixed than Venezuela, especially Suriname as the plurality of both countries are Asian, not afrodescendants. They really aren't similar to any African countries at all; they're their own unique thing. There's not one country in Africa that is similar at all to especially Suriname as an example.
Venezuelans generally would have more in common with Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, and Cubans than Chileans or Argentinians despite the latter two being on the same mainland continent.
African ancestry is more evenly distributed among Venezuelans than in either of those countries, actually
I wouldn't be surprised if you are Domincan because Dominicans have an obsession with calling us and labeling us Caribeños. They think we are exactly like them
Girl , you are showing your ignorance that's what Chileans got it wrong with the stereotype about Venezuelans. I thought you would be better than that. just because many Venezuelans of lower income migrated to these countries doesn't mean all Venezuelans are dark. if anything majority of Venezuelans are mestizos. Most middle class tend to be white or light skinned because Venezuelan literally had a lot of European immigrants ( Portuguese, italians and Spanish). Venezuela situation is unique because of Economic crisis and the Venezuelan regime that mostly pushed and segregated the middle and upper class in Venezuela. Didn't you notice that most Venezuelans influencers or part of the diaspora speaking to the American media about Venezuela's situations are white or light skinned? that's the type of Venezuelan that mostly migrated to either Europe or the US and the people that I personally grew up with. Whenever I hear a racist comment about Venezuela. I'm like that's not what all of us look like.
I don't think race is an issue I personally never payed attention until people started to bring it up and use it an an stereotype about venezuelans but it's not real accurate or a real representation about us. Venezuelans can look like anything there isn't a type. a blonde, indegienous, mulato/a, mestizo/a or even asian can be a Venezuelan person
Venezuelan's novelas could be a good representation of Venezuelan's ethnicity that's what most middle class looked like then. Sure, we had brown people that's is where the stereotype comes from ( probably a lot had to do because we had a massive Colombian inmigrants from la costa) but also can be white. but mostly mestizo from every skin tone from tan to light skinned people. Not to mention we did have also immigrants from Syria and Libano. We are very diverse. WE literally are the third country with most Iltalians outside Italy. Asians are not as big but in the last decades Chinese inmigrants have grown
You seriously are telling me Suriname don't have more african descent? lol Please in what world they are whiter than Venezuela? plus having more Indians and chinese doesn't make them whiter than Venezuela that had bigger European immigrants. it's not like Suriname don't have people of african descent
Venezuela is mestizo with a sprinkle of European. it's literally one of the most mixed countries I've seen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLr58C-36Bs&t=1104s
https://preview.redd.it/14kvt9r4evcg1.jpeg?width=726&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e5d4959dc7b6b732a5ee41cce4e56dd4b7f161c4
also I checked Suriname and while they have many ethinc groups but they have more direct African descend than Venezuelans. Venezuelans are more mixed bc their african ancestry is lower because of mestizaje plus they have higher European ancestry than people from Surinam. Surinam people have more indian and Chinese but very lower of European ancestry.
Yeah because I don’t particularly consider someone from a certain country making music in a certain genre to be culturally significant. If Oscar d’Leon never made salsa it wouldn’t create a void in Hispanic Caribbean culture. Similarly people of different countries such as Peru making salsa doesn’t exactly contribute to Hispanic Caribbean culture. So once again what is the contribution here? That he made music? So did dozens of others. And for the record I consider myself a fan of Oscar D’Leon.
You were asking that rhetorical question to use your incredulity as a citation for why they aren't Caribbean before Zep even brought up that point (the musician)
There are actual things to say about Venezuela's contributions but again, I do firmly believe no nation has to "prove" their Caribbean-ness by being """"""useful""""".
Tell me what a place like Anguilla has done to contribute to any sub-category of Caribbean culture (i.e. anglo-caribbean culture) to validate their Caribbean identity
Or Montserrat. Or Dominica. Or St. Kitts. Quickly, tell me.
I was genuinely curious to see what the contribution Zep could come up with not out of incredulity considering I do in fact consider regions of Venezuela geographically and culturally Caribbean but out of curiosity for what exactly Venezuela has contributed to general Hispanic Caribbean culture and I added my two cents, which is that I don’t consider someone to making music in a particular genre to be culturally significant. You’re splitting hairs and I’m trying to understand how someone making salsa is culturally significant and no one is coming up with an answer.
Again, 3/4 of VE's population lives basically on the coast or extremely near it, so there isn't that sort of cultural divide you're talking about where it's a very mixed bag like Colombia where some parts are culturally Caribbean and some around. The overwhelming majority of Venezuela's inland population is bare in population if not just functionally not inhabited. If at least 3/4 of a country's population participates in one culture--which is Caribbean culture--that is showing cultural hegemony and a general cultural expectation of what said person from that country is going to be like. The more inland people in Venezuela tend to be indigenous people
VE has had historical ties to the ABC Islands as well as Trinidad. And this is a post that talked more about economic trades where Venezuela is involved in the Caribbean. Venezuela is also an observer of CARICOM too (no one's ever going to let them be a member with their current situation the past few years). Culturally they are in the same exact spectrum as PR, DR, and Cuba in regards to both dialect, traditions, as well as food culture too. They really are not "South American" like you're insisting they are. They are as culturally South American as Surinamese folks are.
It's not really a personal matter at this point. Venezuela literally is Caribbean. It's like saying I don't consider Bajans to be Caribbean because I don't like them (I don't dislike you guys just first example that came to my mind)
I also don't consider mere musical contributions to be enough either. I also never defended that person for saying it.
A shame this keeps needing to be argued
Venezuela is not in the Caribbean.
Then Belize, Guyana, and Suriname aren't Caribbean either
Oh sh*t
Be careful, many won’t like this comment 🫣😮
Oh I know but they're going to have to deal with it
They’re all Caribbean
Yep but for some odd reason here people have a bone to pick with Venezuelans and I don't get why. It's also weird seeing a Trini in this thread say how Venezuelans aren't Caribbean as if their island nation isn't quite literally almost bordering Venezuela's coast
I really don't see how people don't see Venezuela is in the same cultural spectrum as the DR and PR. Maybe they don't know Venezuelans but I've met them and seen how they interact with Dominicans, Cubans, and Puerto Ricans and it's quite literally just siblings from the same set of parents. The Spanish Venezuelans speak is still Caribbean Spanish too
Yeah, Venezuelans have a bad rep worldwide, it’s not just here….
In Latino subs they get sh*tted on a lot, many hate them and want them gone from their countries ( Peru, Colombia, Chile, US and Mexico)
But much more in Peru, Colombia and Chile, Chileans HATE Venezuelans to death, and hate Caribbean people overall.
From their POV we’re uncivilized, brown/black monkeys who can’t behave and need to be terminated.
It’s pretty bad , I wanted to visit Chile (one day), but I’m having second guesses, and I’m sure I’ll face less hate crime, racism and hurdles then other Caribbean brothers and sisters
Oh yea the way that Venezuelans are seen in the rest of Latin America is very reminiscent of how Haitian refugees are treated. And it's good you mention that because there are people who are saying that Venezuela, instead of being culturally Caribbean, is instead "South American" in culture but the rest of South America (except maybe some Colombians) is the first to tell you that they not only refer to Venezuelans as caribeños but also do not culturally relate to them
I've seen a glimpse of the hatred Venezuelans get by Chileans. Last year I saw an ad in Chile of this mixed or black woman with a white child (idk what the purpose of the ad was for) and it went viral with Chileans complaining about it, particularly saying stuff like "get that Venezuelan woman off our tv she does not represent us"
Yeah, I love my Latino American homies and brothers due to our history, language and mixing
But damn, South Cone is pretty bad, ironically Argentinians and Uruguayans are pretty chill with Venezuelans
It’s Chileans, but I’ve heard the “why” , and I can understand them in a sense. It’s because Venezuelans in Chile tend to commit crimes, rob, heinous acts, liter, etc.
Add the fact that Chile and Venezuela are culturally very different, Chileans tend to be more xenophobic to others and racist too, and it adds to the fuel of a very niche and specific bunch of Venezuelans that do bad things, and sadly the rest of them pay for the crimes too that they didn’t commit.
Idk, man… in Maracaibo we definitely don’t speak anything close to Dominican, PR or Cuban Spanish. Not all of Venezuela is west Caracas lol
Belize, Guyana, and Suriname are one thing. Only Caribbean from a cultural and civilization perspective. Venzuela and Columbia, and other countries are not JUST caribbean, but also latin american, and south american, so they are not one thing.
It's not really about race or language, it's just about the fact that there's more ambiguity because these countries have more layers and associations that are more multifcated.
For Colombia, a lot of their population is more spread out and only a portion (not the majority) live in their Caribbean departments, so for Colombia I agree. Venezuela on the other hand 3/4 of its population live on or near its Caribbean coast and the rest of live more inland, so it is by far more culturally Caribbean
But yes Venezuela, just like PR and DR, is also Latin American. But Venezuela is also South American just like Guyana is too
The rest of South America (Peruvians, Chileans, Argentinians) etc. are not shy about othering Venezuelans such as calling them caribeños and how culturally dissimilar they are, so the notion they are largely "South American" in culture (whatever that means) is disagreed on by actual South Americans
Then deal with the fact your opinion does not matter to them.
It's not really an opinion at this point, it's almost objective. Their reason for excluding VE from being Caribbean precludes other nations they would call Caribbean and when pointed out they ignore it or move goalposts and don't address their folly logic
There is no substantive test for membership, just arbitrary convention.
Lol the lion the witch and the audacity of this b****
Yep, though slightly less Caribbean lol
Nope venes aren’t part of the Caribbean.
Yes they are. The British islands do not get to unilaterally decide things that the whole region has a say in.
Never did I say we do, but to reply to you European colonies don’t get to decide either. Venezuela is not a Caribbean nation, they border the sea that’s it. Edit * also we aren’t British we have had independence for quite sometime.
dam no love for ur neighbors?
No hate for them either, they just aren’t part of the Caribbean. The venes in Trini came illegally, and they been kidnapping our fishermen for years before this US intervention.
I know a few people whom cross the border from Dr and they went through Venezuela.
Por qué insisten tanto algunos miembros de este sub en "depurar" al Caribe de todo lo que no se parezca a ellos? Conocen la palabra racismo? Y no me vengan con el tema de muH cULtuRaL aPpRoPLayStAtiOn because that is an old card that doesn't work anymore. If only people looked into the things that we have in common and appreciated this little blue rock as the home of all, things would be entirely different. Well, a dude can always dream as long as you ain't got to pay for it, right?
Not really but I see why people say it is
Every country bordering the Caribbean Sea except the USA is Caribbean to me
Central America not so much imo
Depends;
Panama is very Caribbean, they look like us (Dominicans, Cubans and Puerto Ricans), we even took Spanish Reggae (as influence) from them to make Reggaetón.
Spanish Reggae arrived at Panama via Jamaica, which is Caribbean too
Overall Panama is the most Caribbean of the Central American countries, Belize and Honduras too.
Costa Rica and Nicaragua have Caribbean coast, flair,culture, but it’s very regional specific, more niche
Guatemala and El Salvador don’t have Caribbean coast, and Mexico does, but apparently they don’t identify with us, and are very distant culturally
It slipped my mind that Panama was in Central America. I do consider Panama closer than the others though. To me, when I think of the Caribbean I think DR, PR, Cuba, the Anglo islands. Then Venezuela. Everything after Venezuela is iffy to me on if it’s *caribbean. But I think this sub takes “Caribbeanness” too seriously
Yeah, Panama even has the same colors as us lol
🇨🇺, 🇭🇹, 🇩🇴, 🇵🇷, 🇵🇦 LOL
To me Venezuela is Caribbean, many Venezuelans identify as Caribbean, they have the longest Caribbean coastline, many of them sound indistinguishable from us lol. We behave alike (typical Caribbean, loud, warm, love a good vibe, very extroverted, hot/spicy flair, swag etc)
Colombians from the north part are Caribbean too, cause a Colombian from Barranquilla is nowhere near the same as one from Bogotá or Medellín, they don’t appear to be people from the same country lol , same as inland Venezuelans from the ones near the coast
Yes, coastal Venezuelans are veryyy Caribbean. IMO it’s nonsense to consider Guyana Caribbean if Venezuela is not. But also-indistinguishable… not really. Yes our accents in the Caribbean are closer, but I know a Dominican accent and Venezuelans have a different way of speaking although very closely related to us on the islands. Even PRcans and Dominicans have notable differences to my ears, I can tell a PRcan and Dominican apart.
The only ones I can tell apart is you guys and Cubans lol
Love ya’ll , míos personales🫡🇩🇴🇨🇺❤️
Also love my other Caribbean broskies! 🇭🇹🇯🇲🇹🇹🇵🇦🇻🇪🇨🇴🇬🇾🇧🇿🇧🇧🇧🇸 and the rest of the crew!
As a Panamanian I would not consider Panama to be Caribbean culturally, only in certain parts (Colon, parts of Panama City, Bocas del toro). The rest of the country feels very Central American to me.
Yes it is, imo
That’s fair, every person has their own way of looking at things
Not really, but some might.
Unpopular opinion, no. I consider “Caribbean”, the Caribbean islands. Sure Colombia and Venezuela have Caribbean influence, but they are not Caribbean.