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Zionism is a spectrum. Most just believe in the right to self-determination in the ancestral homeland.
In that sense, Zionism has been achieved. For many people, that's the end of the story, now the objective is keeping it safe.
This person is wayyy over on the extreme right side of Zionism, the delusional Torah-thumping type. I agree that this is like a mental illness. I've long thought extreme religiosity should be in the DSM.
There's no framework in Zionism for Palestinian self-determination. So I'd say Zionism as a whole is problematic. I don't get liberals and their Zionism in small doses mindset.
bad critique to compare it to nazism, zionism is zionism, to make the word as dirty in the public mind is a better pursuit that does not require that childish eqation.
Great. Did you know you can help oppressed indigenous people in your own country?
For instance, since the 1980 Settlement Act, 151 federal laws have been passed to benefit the over 500 federally recognized tribes across the country. But not the tribes in Maine.
You can join the alliance, contact legislators, community organize, etc. You can make a real difference in what you value instead of just complaining about it on the internet.
(I complain on the internet constantly, I'm not necessarily knocking it. I do think it has a place in the global conversation.
But you have a chance to affect change in your own "terrorist country." Quotation marks just to quote you; I don't necessarily disagree.)
Yes! The existence of the modern state of Israel IS Naziism. It is founded on the genocide and displacement of another people. Zionism is a nationalist idealolgy. The word Nazi is literally short for nationalist! It is not just a state but a state that's existence if founded on the erasure of an entire people and country. Everything about it screams Naziism! I don't care if you're offended. Who has the privilege to be offended while PEOPLE ARE DYING BY THE TENS OF THOUSANDS. you need to wake tf up. I'm a Jew who grew up learning about the Holocaust and this is ALL too familiar.
Stupid thing is that these lands aren't promised by God to Jews in the Old Testament. It was promised to Abraham's lineage to rule these lands for undetermined period of time in exhange for living godly life.
Also historical Jewish kingdom was slightly larger than modern Israel. So interpretating that these 2 rivers were Nile and Euphrates is that Bible doesn't know border of Jewish states because Jewish kingdom never reached that extent.
Expecting people ceding their land according to your holy book that people don't believe it is already stupid argument. Also your holy book doesn't align with your Nile to Euphrates argument.
You’re talking about the bible? Read about the Islamic ethnic cleansing of Jews from Israel since 1517 with the Islamic Ottoman Empire eradicating Jewish communities and importing Arab workers from Arabia and Egypt. Start with the Safed (northern Israel) 1517, Hebron 1517 then go through until 1948. Also the book palestina ex monumentis is quite good for historical context.
You’re talking about the bible? Read about the Islamic ethnic cleansing of Jews from Israel since 1517 with the Islamic Ottoman Empire eradicating Jewish communities and importing Arab workers from
I assume you are wrong. However, Things you said are nothing with so-called promised land given by Jews 3000 years ago.
You assume correctly. There's no historical evidence to support a claim of ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Levant by anyone during the Ottoman period. In fact, for example, the Ottomans offered Jews from Spain asylum throughout their empire to escape persecution, sending ships to rescue them. There's also no evidence of a mass migration of ethnically Arab workers into Palestine, this is an early 20th century myth used to claim Palestinians are not indigenous, which no longer works with modern genetic testing.
“No, the Ottoman Empire did not carry out a systematic ethnic cleansing or genocide of the Jewish population as a whole. For most of its history, the Empire served as a relative safe haven for Jews fleeing persecution in Christian Europe, although non-Muslims were generally considered second-class citizens and faced discrimination.
Unpacked for Educators
Unpacked for Educators
+4
Historical Treatment of Jews in the Ottoman Empire
Haven for Refugees: In the 14th and 15th centuries, the Ottoman Empire welcomed tens of thousands of Jewish refugees, particularly those fleeing the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions. Sultans valued the skills (medicine, finance, trade) and loyalty of the Jewish immigrants, who were often perceived as more trustworthy than Christian subjects with ties to rival European powers.”
These people do not believe in God. Lol. They believe in power and domination. When they speak of "God" they are only talking about the supremacist will to power that their society is inculcated with.
Having been to Israel this summer, unfortunately the young generation isn’t becoming more moderate this days but going more in the other direction. Since October 7th the belief that Palestinians are violent and must be controlled is only more prevalent.
Ok, that’s your personal preference regarding the borders then lol. I don’t hear many people from either side saying they want the UN-proposed 1948 borders. But again like are you expecting any group of people ever to just go like “ok yeah cool we’ll all just leave our city and move, you can have it. Enjoy!”?
That lady isn’t in this comment section which is why I’m not asking questions to her.
And again “1948 borders” just refers to a proposal submitted by the UN General Assembly. Those were never the borders on the ground. I’m not saying this to argue against those borders, I’m not particularly invested in what the exact borders are personally (if they have one state for both Israelis and Palestinians fine, if they have two states one for each and they agree to that fine). You’re just proposing for that plan to be implemented for the first time, not going back to a previous status quo.
Sure. Post ottoman empire, Britain took over a wide swath of land. Through discussions, decided to split it up and create a variety of states. People living in most of those states decided that one of the states, Israel, should not exist. So they started a war on the evening of the declaration of Israel with the goal of eradicating the newborn state in its crib. They lost. The loss was coined "nakba".
Approximately 20 years later, in an attempt to rewrite history, this group conspired with the Soviets to reframe a failed invasion by 5 countries as a deliberate cleansing by Israel. Approximately 30 years after that, this reimagined history became canon across the middle east and their allies in Russia and Iran.
I hope that was informative. Now explain why the government of Gaza launching an invasion from its own country is not a terrorist attack or a declaration of war using the definition you gave earlier.
“The Nakba (Arabic: النَّكْبَة, romanized: an-Nakba, lit. 'the catastrophe') is the Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs through their violent displacement and dispossession of land, property, and belongings, along with the destruction of their society and the suppression of their culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations.”
“But, but, they totally deserved it!” -you probably
For any liberal zionist lurking here, you should know that this is how we see you: A delusional fool with such an ignorance of the world as to be physically painful to all who witness it
Oh, for sure, Abraham made a great world tour and must have fertilized women in Asia, Europe, the Americas and even the North Pole when he traveled with Santa Claus and his reindee
And this is why it’s so easy for the other side to keep saying antizionism is antisemitism. It isn’t, but these kind of comments show up so frequently even on left-wing communities so it’s a little disingenuous to act like it’s not a problem at all.
They rarely show up, and it's just as likely a right wing troll doing it to try and get the sub banned. If you see shit like this, use the report function and it will get handled
Yet in her Torah, her god kicked her people out of that land 3,000 years ago after her King Solomon was doing witchcraft in the second temple. Her god then gave that land to her enemies. Odd how they cherry pick their own Torah.
There are tons of videos like this where psychopathic Israelis (including from the average person, or from their eminent politicians and rabbis) straight up tell you what they want and what they are doing. Some comments respond the Palestinians are just as bad, trying to blame both sides. But I cannot remember seeing a single video of a single Palestinian or Arab saying anything close to that heinous but against Jews. It is about time we realise this is not a “both sides are evil” situation. One side wants to wipe out the other, and the other side is trying to resist and survive with whatever meagre means they have.
I don't wanna be that guy, but isn't that exactly the same thing we see with extremist Muslims ? Like don't right wingers use these types of videos to justify violence against Muslims in for example London ?
Also, I agree with the thing about settlers, a lot if not most of them are vile people, and the way they take over the land bit by bit, with violence and under the protection of the IDF is horrifying. I'm just gonna say in a video game and the rest y'all can add.
I thought that the reason this asymmetrical violence against Palestinians was justified because THEY were like this? Now you are defending Israel being like this by the other side being like this? If both sides are the same how can you justify the extreme asymmetry in the violence, death, and destruction?
You dont get to use this argument in opposite ways to justify why you can be like this and also why you can kill them for being like this.
Yeah, this is obviously the extreme end of the spectrum in terms of opinion. Like you could show a video of an American saying they think all brown people should be deported, and that certainly is an opinion that a small number of people have (and possibly tacitly the current administration), but to caption that with “this is what Americans want” is a bit disingenuous.
If you asked Israelis what they think about the situation I’d say the most common/mainstream opinion you’ll get is “we can’t give them a state now because look at Hamas and their antisemitism, they would attack us the second they became a state. So we have to keep the occupation.” That is a realistic depiction of the Israeli view I’d say from having interacted with them.
Muslim and Jewish Palestinians have both lived in Palestine since Islam was invented and way before that. Yet somehow neither side can fathom that the other also has a homeland there.
Welcome to /r/AskSocialists, a community for both socialists and non-socialists to ask general questions directed at socialists within a friendly, relaxed and welcoming environment. Please be mindful of our rules before participating and join the subreddit r/AmericanCommunist:
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Crazy levels of delusion
Zionism is a spectrum. Most just believe in the right to self-determination in the ancestral homeland.
In that sense, Zionism has been achieved. For many people, that's the end of the story, now the objective is keeping it safe.
This person is wayyy over on the extreme right side of Zionism, the delusional Torah-thumping type. I agree that this is like a mental illness. I've long thought extreme religiosity should be in the DSM.
There's no framework in Zionism for Palestinian self-determination. So I'd say Zionism as a whole is problematic. I don't get liberals and their Zionism in small doses mindset.
All forms of zionism should be seen as all forms of nazism.
bad critique to compare it to nazism, zionism is zionism, to make the word as dirty in the public mind is a better pursuit that does not require that childish eqation.
It’s not childishq. It’s an apt comparison. And to be frank arguing against it sounds like ur defending the colonial genocidal state.
So the existence of Israel = Naziism?
= terrorism* much like the us, israel is a terrorist state.
Great. Did you know you can help oppressed indigenous people in your own country?
For instance, since the 1980 Settlement Act, 151 federal laws have been passed to benefit the over 500 federally recognized tribes across the country. But not the tribes in Maine.
https://www.wabanakialliance.com/support-our-tribes/
You can join the alliance, contact legislators, community organize, etc. You can make a real difference in what you value instead of just complaining about it on the internet.
(I complain on the internet constantly, I'm not necessarily knocking it. I do think it has a place in the global conversation.
But you have a chance to affect change in your own "terrorist country." Quotation marks just to quote you; I don't necessarily disagree.)
Man, hasbara has really gone downhill, I guess everyone good at it gave up after the first 10,000 children were killed.
Ok so Israel and the USA are both terrorist countries that shouldn't exist. Any other obvious statements you wanna make?
Yes! The existence of the modern state of Israel IS Naziism. It is founded on the genocide and displacement of another people. Zionism is a nationalist idealolgy. The word Nazi is literally short for nationalist! It is not just a state but a state that's existence if founded on the erasure of an entire people and country. Everything about it screams Naziism! I don't care if you're offended. Who has the privilege to be offended while PEOPLE ARE DYING BY THE TENS OF THOUSANDS. you need to wake tf up. I'm a Jew who grew up learning about the Holocaust and this is ALL too familiar.
Settler colonialism.
"Abraham was my great great grandfather!"
Quote from woman who is probably Argentinian or something.
She ate Abraham. So he's definitely a part of her
Literally a nazi.
Stupid thing is that these lands aren't promised by God to Jews in the Old Testament. It was promised to Abraham's lineage to rule these lands for undetermined period of time in exhange for living godly life.
Also historical Jewish kingdom was slightly larger than modern Israel. So interpretating that these 2 rivers were Nile and Euphrates is that Bible doesn't know border of Jewish states because Jewish kingdom never reached that extent.
Expecting people ceding their land according to your holy book that people don't believe it is already stupid argument. Also your holy book doesn't align with your Nile to Euphrates argument.
https://preview.redd.it/378ictm5dn8g1.png?width=330&format=png&auto=webp&s=0e03b8606d685b8c20d7b99b1c85ef7207969e20
A short read of history could help your historical ignorance of the Levant.
Then inform us, learning correct information is helpful for me.
You’re talking about the bible? Read about the Islamic ethnic cleansing of Jews from Israel since 1517 with the Islamic Ottoman Empire eradicating Jewish communities and importing Arab workers from Arabia and Egypt. Start with the Safed (northern Israel) 1517, Hebron 1517 then go through until 1948. Also the book palestina ex monumentis is quite good for historical context.
I assume you are wrong. However, Things you said are nothing with so-called promised land given by Jews 3000 years ago.
You assume correctly. There's no historical evidence to support a claim of ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Levant by anyone during the Ottoman period. In fact, for example, the Ottomans offered Jews from Spain asylum throughout their empire to escape persecution, sending ships to rescue them. There's also no evidence of a mass migration of ethnically Arab workers into Palestine, this is an early 20th century myth used to claim Palestinians are not indigenous, which no longer works with modern genetic testing.
Propaganda bs. Here is the correct history:
“No, the Ottoman Empire did not carry out a systematic ethnic cleansing or genocide of the Jewish population as a whole. For most of its history, the Empire served as a relative safe haven for Jews fleeing persecution in Christian Europe, although non-Muslims were generally considered second-class citizens and faced discrimination. Unpacked for Educators Unpacked for Educators +4 Historical Treatment of Jews in the Ottoman Empire Haven for Refugees: In the 14th and 15th centuries, the Ottoman Empire welcomed tens of thousands of Jewish refugees, particularly those fleeing the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions. Sultans valued the skills (medicine, finance, trade) and loyalty of the Jewish immigrants, who were often perceived as more trustworthy than Christian subjects with ties to rival European powers.”
Na na na na boo boo, my god is right and real and all the millions of other gods are wrong and fake 🤪
These people do not believe in God. Lol. They believe in power and domination. When they speak of "God" they are only talking about the supremacist will to power that their society is inculcated with.
Having been to Israel this summer, unfortunately the young generation isn’t becoming more moderate this days but going more in the other direction. Since October 7th the belief that Palestinians are violent and must be controlled is only more prevalent.
Why are the Palestinians violent?
If I come to steal your house, you should give it nicely. Don’t fight. That’s terrorism.
Would your message to them be just, surrender/leave the country/give up the house? If so ok but I wouldn’t expect anyone to say yes to that lol.
So you see why the Palestinians are upset.
Give back the land and THEN I will call them terrorists. They would have no right then.
Give the land back meaning what, all of Israel or?
1948 borders would be just fine, sir!
But seeing as this Israeli lady is talking about taking Syria and Iraq, etc. your questioning is going to the wrong side!
What Borders is this young lady referring to?
Ok, that’s your personal preference regarding the borders then lol. I don’t hear many people from either side saying they want the UN-proposed 1948 borders. But again like are you expecting any group of people ever to just go like “ok yeah cool we’ll all just leave our city and move, you can have it. Enjoy!”?
That lady isn’t in this comment section which is why I’m not asking questions to her.
Where is the new land going to come from after 1948?
You just gonna create it from thin air?
It was taken from somebody,…
Better just respect the 1948 borders.
Who is talking about new land? What?
And again “1948 borders” just refers to a proposal submitted by the UN General Assembly. Those were never the borders on the ground. I’m not saying this to argue against those borders, I’m not particularly invested in what the exact borders are personally (if they have one state for both Israelis and Palestinians fine, if they have two states one for each and they agree to that fine). You’re just proposing for that plan to be implemented for the first time, not going back to a previous status quo.
The State of Israel is just a proposal and there are no borders on the ground?
Or is that just for Palestine then?
Explain Gaza
Explain the Nakba, as it occurred first historically.
Then you will have the context to understand the situation of Gaza.
Weird how prior to 1948, none of this occurred.
Sure. Post ottoman empire, Britain took over a wide swath of land. Through discussions, decided to split it up and create a variety of states. People living in most of those states decided that one of the states, Israel, should not exist. So they started a war on the evening of the declaration of Israel with the goal of eradicating the newborn state in its crib. They lost. The loss was coined "nakba".
Approximately 20 years later, in an attempt to rewrite history, this group conspired with the Soviets to reframe a failed invasion by 5 countries as a deliberate cleansing by Israel. Approximately 30 years after that, this reimagined history became canon across the middle east and their allies in Russia and Iran.
I hope that was informative. Now explain why the government of Gaza launching an invasion from its own country is not a terrorist attack or a declaration of war using the definition you gave earlier.
“The Nakba (Arabic: النَّكْبَة, romanized: an-Nakba, lit. 'the catastrophe') is the Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs through their violent displacement and dispossession of land, property, and belongings, along with the destruction of their society and the suppression of their culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations.”
“But, but, they totally deserved it!” -you probably
Thank goodness we can see the evolution of propaganda in real time as logged by Wikipedia change logs eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nakba&diff=prev&oldid=1015982209
https://preview.redd.it/t93zw4cn5m8g1.jpeg?width=1158&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4c2af86660c7c7ae2b36687972b3e66382ba5cb1
Weird. The Jewish Voice for Peace says that the Nakba happened and must be acknowledged if there is hope for sincere reconciliation.
Seems the one changing history is you!
Bro, 2023 before Oct 7 was the deadliest year for Palestinians in the West bank alone
For any liberal zionist lurking here, you should know that this is how we see you: A delusional fool with such an ignorance of the world as to be physically painful to all who witness it
Wow. Powerful. 👏 I hope many lurking liberal zionists have to read and face that powerful truth.
Some people are literally garbage
If she is a descendant of Abraham, then she must be using some cream or product as in the case of Michael Jackson to turn white.
I am an expert on Abraham, funny enough, so I am uniquely qualified to weigh in on this.
You see, Abraham had many sons. You could say, many so sons had Father Abraham, even.
I am one of them. And so are you, which was crazy to find out.
Oh, for sure, Abraham made a great world tour and must have fertilized women in Asia, Europe, the Americas and even the North Pole when he traveled with Santa Claus and his reindee
I always wondered what that was for in Ghengis A Khan!
Why is all religious freak so awful against other people?
Are Israeli women circumcised as well? Just asking for a friend...
[removed]
We can condemn zionism without resorting to antisemitic hate-mongering. You aren't talking about Zionists here, you're talking about Jews.
And this is why it’s so easy for the other side to keep saying antizionism is antisemitism. It isn’t, but these kind of comments show up so frequently even on left-wing communities so it’s a little disingenuous to act like it’s not a problem at all.
The antisemitic Khazar conspiriacy theory is centuries old, and has been repeatedly proven false, the op for this comment is antisemitic.
…exactly my point. The degree to which antisemitism starts to seep in in antizionist conversations and groups is a real issue.
Why is it never himyarites and always the khazar khaganite.
They rarely show up, and it's just as likely a right wing troll doing it to try and get the sub banned. If you see shit like this, use the report function and it will get handled
I don’t mean just on this specific sub man lol
Isn’t it called Lebensraum?
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Great great grandfather, so like what 1890s
Yet in her Torah, her god kicked her people out of that land 3,000 years ago after her King Solomon was doing witchcraft in the second temple. Her god then gave that land to her enemies. Odd how they cherry pick their own Torah.
“They also have the Bible” says Christian Zionist to me. This person is indeed fringe garbage though.
Definitely, there is nothing more terrifying than a Zionist when they decide they were "promised" somthing.
Brainwashed from religious school
They are from anywhere but from that land which they claim is theirs. Lol settlers
Women speaking facts
Okay but shouldn't you then believe Hamas when they have in their charters that they want to kill all the Jews; it goes both ways.
There are tons of videos like this where psychopathic Israelis (including from the average person, or from their eminent politicians and rabbis) straight up tell you what they want and what they are doing. Some comments respond the Palestinians are just as bad, trying to blame both sides. But I cannot remember seeing a single video of a single Palestinian or Arab saying anything close to that heinous but against Jews. It is about time we realise this is not a “both sides are evil” situation. One side wants to wipe out the other, and the other side is trying to resist and survive with whatever meagre means they have.
It is not very hard to find if you look, or I can find them for you if you are lazy.
Is this sub just an anti semite circle jerk? This has nothing to do with socialism at all.
I don't wanna be that guy, but isn't that exactly the same thing we see with extremist Muslims ? Like don't right wingers use these types of videos to justify violence against Muslims in for example London ?
Also, I agree with the thing about settlers, a lot if not most of them are vile people, and the way they take over the land bit by bit, with violence and under the protection of the IDF is horrifying. I'm just gonna say in a video game and the rest y'all can add.
I thought that the reason this asymmetrical violence against Palestinians was justified because THEY were like this? Now you are defending Israel being like this by the other side being like this? If both sides are the same how can you justify the extreme asymmetry in the violence, death, and destruction?
You dont get to use this argument in opposite ways to justify why you can be like this and also why you can kill them for being like this.
Do you have a mental health crisis ? Who are you talking to. Where did I defend Israel?
"The only good victim is a powerless and good-behaved one." There's like 80 yrs. precedent on this, they're colonists stealing land.
Did you read what I wrote ?
Yes, I replied to what you wrote?
[removed]
No, I never said that?
Yeah, this is obviously the extreme end of the spectrum in terms of opinion. Like you could show a video of an American saying they think all brown people should be deported, and that certainly is an opinion that a small number of people have (and possibly tacitly the current administration), but to caption that with “this is what Americans want” is a bit disingenuous.
If you asked Israelis what they think about the situation I’d say the most common/mainstream opinion you’ll get is “we can’t give them a state now because look at Hamas and their antisemitism, they would attack us the second they became a state. So we have to keep the occupation.” That is a realistic depiction of the Israeli view I’d say from having interacted with them.
This is not the extreme end of the spectrum within israeli society, they think this is normal and its what theyre taught from a young age.
I assume that statement is coming from having been there?
Lol
You're dehumanising a whole group of people based upon what evidence? Be careful before you turn into exactly what you claim to hate.
It's funny how antisemitism somehow made the jump from far-right to far-left :D
Care to explain how this is antisemitic, hasbara?
Muslim and Jewish Palestinians have both lived in Palestine since Islam was invented and way before that. Yet somehow neither side can fathom that the other also has a homeland there.
The whole conflict is just stupid.
The solution is already there https://youtu.be/WfhFunPO4bQ?si=TPdj9Oi-9PO4kqXi