Think of a futon. You can set it upright to be a couch, or fold it down to be a bed. But it isn’t really either one of those. But it’s still a futon.
Bisexuality is quite the same. You don’t stop being queer when you enter a heterosexual relationship. And what could a relationship between two queer people be other than a queer relationship.
Relationships do not have a sexual orientation - people do. And being in an opposite sex marriage doesn't make you straight - as millions of queer people who went in to traditional marriages because it was the only option available can tell you.
Queer people are queer no matter who they are in relationship with.
Well, some bisexual people would consider their same gender relationships gay/lesbian, but not all would. Same with different gender relationships. I'm an asexual man; am I in a straight relationship when I date a woman? Does it depend on the woman's orientation? It's a "wlm" relationship, but it doesn't fit the expectations for one, bc sexual attraction is absent in at least one direction, and sexual activity is absent. So you see it can kinda get into the weeds.
In the end, a relationship involving at least one LGBT+ person can be queer if they want it to be. It isn't always queer. But it's an option.
Reminder that being LGBT+ is not something someone has to earn by suffering a certain amount of oppression and discrimination. They just have to fit at least one of the letters in the extended acronym. Though fwiw, bi people face discrimination from both outside the community and within it. Biphobia has decreased since its height in like the '80s or so, but it's still very much a thing.
I don’t really understand bi4bi wlm relationships being considered ‘queer’, because isn’t that just being straight?
no, because neither of them are straight. they are queer people and that doesn’t just get cancelled out because they happen to be in a relationship.
Like if it was a relationship between two bisexual women, it would be considered lesbian
it wouldn’t. that would be sapphic, or wlw, or if it was your relationship and that’s the term you wanted to use then you can, but it is not universal.
Another thing, I’ve seen a video on tt about “wlm ships so good it’s queer” ?? I feel as if it takes away to the whole meaning to the word, since the word ‘queer’ means ‘odd’ and wlm is definitely not a queer relationship, but a privileged one since it’s the ‘norm’. Why are people so obsessed with making their real/fictional straight ships seem oppressed? It’s kinda creepy.
i’ll be the first to argue with someone when they say “it’s not that deep” 9 times out of 10, but in this case it truly is not that deep. sometimes they hc the character(s) as queer, maybe there’s an unconventional dynamic/lifestyle/fashion senses/etc at play in the ship, or some sort of other context that makes them feel out of the ordinary from the usual het ships/familiar to a queer person. but, really, this is just a silly jokey thing that fellow queer people say. it really just means that this person likely usually only ships queer ships but this particular mlw ship happens to be good enough to them to bypass that, so they’re jokingly “honorarily” queer.
‘Queer’ doesn’t mean ‘odd’. ‘Queer’ denotes a member of the queer community or something related to the community. It denotes a non-normative gender or sexuality. I mean, that’s kind of the whole point: we’ve reclaimed the word and given it our own meaning, to refer to us and our identities.
The meaning of ‘queer’ as ’odd’ is archaic. Otherwise I’d be able to say, “This is a rather queer argument”. This usage of the word is outdated. If I said that, I’d sound like I was from the 1800s.
The difference between ‘odd’ and ‘non-normative’/‘queer’ is that what’s odd is about how it’s perceived, but what’s non-normative/queer is about what it actually is, regardless of how it’s perceived. It’s an identity. A person can be queer even if they’re not perceived as such. The whole point is that we own our identities and we define ourselves and our relationships.
When bi people enter into opposite-sex relationships, we bring with us our queer sensibilities, our queer life histories, our queer culture. The way we think about an opposite-sex relationship, and what we want from it, may be informed and altered by our queerness. Being able to be partnered with either gender can help make us less bound by traditional gender roles or general conformism in our approach to relationships than is typical for heterosexuals.
Why are people so obsessed with making their real/fictional straight ships seem oppressed?
Calling a relationship queer is a separate thing from calling the relationship oppressed. Queerness is a separate thing from being oppressed.
Bi people who've been in both same-sex and opposite-sex relationships know very well that although we're definitely differently oppressed in a same-sex relationship than in an opposite-sex relationship, we're definitely oppressed in both.
In an opposite-sex relationship, we don't have to deal with constantly having to come out to every random repairperson who ever enters our house like we would have to do when living with a same-sex partner; however, instead we have to deal with no longer having an easy, casual way to come out at all (such as just mentioning a same-sex partner) - and when we do come out, we often get met with confused looks or are told, "Well, you're straight now that you're with [opposite-sex partner]." If we don't come out (to absolutely everyone!), then people feel free to say homophobic things to or in front of us because they assume we're straight.
Specifically in bi4bi relationships, the sameness of having a partner who shares our sexual orientation (which often comes as a relief after previous unpleasant experiences having partners who didn't share our sexual orientation) can feel very, very similar to the sameness of having a partner who shares our gender (which may also come as a relief after previous unpleasant experiences having partners who didn't share our gender). So, the emotional dynamics of a bi4bi relationship can feel queer for that reason too. Just as gender stereotyping and patriarchal oppression can breed resentment and even contribute to abuse in opposite-gender relationships, so also stereotypes of bisexuals and biphobic oppression can breed resentment and even contribute to abuse in mixed-orientation relationships. Bi people of both genders are at higher risk of all types of intimate partner violence than gay/lesbian people or heterosexuals, because both our opposite-sex partners and our same-sex partners sometimes feel threatened by the very concept that we can be attracted to a different gender than them. Escaping from that dynamic and finding a relationship with a fellow bi person can feel very similar to the relief from the "gender wars" that are common in opposite-sex relationships.
(Bi people's opposite-sex relationships can be queer in various ways, regardless of whether our partners are queer or not; in #3 here, I'm just trying to describe an additional way in which a bi4bi relationship might feel particularly queer.)
At the end, you can’t make someone identify themselves. That’s the problem with identity politics, in order to “protect” your identity space you will need to erase all other people, because you can’t stop that man that only sleeps with women to identify himself as “queer”, or that married woman that kissed a girl once in freshman year to call herself “queer”.
As a bi person in a relationship with a bi person I recognize there's some privilege to being perceived as "straight."
I do feel that privilege is very relative and often comes at the cost of not being seen as queer or bi or at the cost hiding yourself. In our particular case it's also kinda hard to get people to read us as straight due to how we present in terms of style/behavior/social circles. I could if I wanted come across as a cishet dude but it'd require being a really tiny version of myself and forgo a lot of things I do find valuable.
When I talk about my relationship I'll often say it's "perceived as straight" or "hetero-presenting." It doesn't feel right to describe it as queer although I kinda understand why others would do so.
As for my partner they really do feel like there's a meaningful difference in being with a bi person and that it does change the relationship in some ways. Personally I don't think you need to be queer to let go of heteronormativity but it probably helps.
Additionally, being in a duaric relationship doesn't automatically mean you're privileged. At the bare minimum, the partners are experiencing bi erasure.
Its queer because both people in the relationship are queer
Think of a futon. You can set it upright to be a couch, or fold it down to be a bed. But it isn’t really either one of those. But it’s still a futon.
Bisexuality is quite the same. You don’t stop being queer when you enter a heterosexual relationship. And what could a relationship between two queer people be other than a queer relationship.
I like your futon metaphor! My personal favourite is the werewolf metaphor. Sure, he’s can be a man or a wolf but he’s always a werewolf.
Relationships do not have a sexual orientation - people do. And being in an opposite sex marriage doesn't make you straight - as millions of queer people who went in to traditional marriages because it was the only option available can tell you.
Queer people are queer no matter who they are in relationship with.
Well, some bisexual people would consider their same gender relationships gay/lesbian, but not all would. Same with different gender relationships. I'm an asexual man; am I in a straight relationship when I date a woman? Does it depend on the woman's orientation? It's a "wlm" relationship, but it doesn't fit the expectations for one, bc sexual attraction is absent in at least one direction, and sexual activity is absent. So you see it can kinda get into the weeds.
In the end, a relationship involving at least one LGBT+ person can be queer if they want it to be. It isn't always queer. But it's an option.
Reminder that being LGBT+ is not something someone has to earn by suffering a certain amount of oppression and discrimination. They just have to fit at least one of the letters in the extended acronym. Though fwiw, bi people face discrimination from both outside the community and within it. Biphobia has decreased since its height in like the '80s or so, but it's still very much a thing.
no, because neither of them are straight. they are queer people and that doesn’t just get cancelled out because they happen to be in a relationship.
it wouldn’t. that would be sapphic, or wlw, or if it was your relationship and that’s the term you wanted to use then you can, but it is not universal.
i’ll be the first to argue with someone when they say “it’s not that deep” 9 times out of 10, but in this case it truly is not that deep. sometimes they hc the character(s) as queer, maybe there’s an unconventional dynamic/lifestyle/fashion senses/etc at play in the ship, or some sort of other context that makes them feel out of the ordinary from the usual het ships/familiar to a queer person. but, really, this is just a silly jokey thing that fellow queer people say. it really just means that this person likely usually only ships queer ships but this particular mlw ship happens to be good enough to them to bypass that, so they’re jokingly “honorarily” queer.
‘Queer’ doesn’t mean ‘odd’. ‘Queer’ denotes a member of the queer community or something related to the community. It denotes a non-normative gender or sexuality. I mean, that’s kind of the whole point: we’ve reclaimed the word and given it our own meaning, to refer to us and our identities.
The meaning of ‘queer’ as ’odd’ is archaic. Otherwise I’d be able to say, “This is a rather queer argument”. This usage of the word is outdated. If I said that, I’d sound like I was from the 1800s.
The difference between ‘odd’ and ‘non-normative’/‘queer’ is that what’s odd is about how it’s perceived, but what’s non-normative/queer is about what it actually is, regardless of how it’s perceived. It’s an identity. A person can be queer even if they’re not perceived as such. The whole point is that we own our identities and we define ourselves and our relationships.
When bi people enter into opposite-sex relationships, we bring with us our queer sensibilities, our queer life histories, our queer culture. The way we think about an opposite-sex relationship, and what we want from it, may be informed and altered by our queerness. Being able to be partnered with either gender can help make us less bound by traditional gender roles or general conformism in our approach to relationships than is typical for heterosexuals.
Calling a relationship queer is a separate thing from calling the relationship oppressed. Queerness is a separate thing from being oppressed.
Bi people who've been in both same-sex and opposite-sex relationships know very well that although we're definitely differently oppressed in a same-sex relationship than in an opposite-sex relationship, we're definitely oppressed in both.
In an opposite-sex relationship, we don't have to deal with constantly having to come out to every random repairperson who ever enters our house like we would have to do when living with a same-sex partner; however, instead we have to deal with no longer having an easy, casual way to come out at all (such as just mentioning a same-sex partner) - and when we do come out, we often get met with confused looks or are told, "Well, you're straight now that you're with [opposite-sex partner]." If we don't come out (to absolutely everyone!), then people feel free to say homophobic things to or in front of us because they assume we're straight.
(Bi people's opposite-sex relationships can be queer in various ways, regardless of whether our partners are queer or not; in #3 here, I'm just trying to describe an additional way in which a bi4bi relationship might feel particularly queer.)
At the end, you can’t make someone identify themselves. That’s the problem with identity politics, in order to “protect” your identity space you will need to erase all other people, because you can’t stop that man that only sleeps with women to identify himself as “queer”, or that married woman that kissed a girl once in freshman year to call herself “queer”.
As a bi person in a relationship with a bi person I recognize there's some privilege to being perceived as "straight."
I do feel that privilege is very relative and often comes at the cost of not being seen as queer or bi or at the cost hiding yourself. In our particular case it's also kinda hard to get people to read us as straight due to how we present in terms of style/behavior/social circles. I could if I wanted come across as a cishet dude but it'd require being a really tiny version of myself and forgo a lot of things I do find valuable.
When I talk about my relationship I'll often say it's "perceived as straight" or "hetero-presenting." It doesn't feel right to describe it as queer although I kinda understand why others would do so.
As for my partner they really do feel like there's a meaningful difference in being with a bi person and that it does change the relationship in some ways. Personally I don't think you need to be queer to let go of heteronormativity but it probably helps.
For any of the following reasons.
One or both are nonbinary.
One or both are genderqueer.
It's a queerplatonic relationship.
Additionally, being in a duaric relationship doesn't automatically mean you're privileged. At the bare minimum, the partners are experiencing bi erasure.
or just bc both people involved are queer by being bi
Oh, I know both are queer. The question was just for why their relationship is queer.
(It's possible for an endocishet person to be in a queer relationship and a queer person to be in a duaric relationship.)