Because it would be so much easier if things like genuine feminism or the 4B movement were wrong, and happiness will come if only you try harder to be a small and compliant girl. The same reason recuperationist strains of feminism are so much more popular: they ask no change of you except to give into what society was already pressuring you to do.
And, yeah, that feminist consciousness is agony. With additional layers if you are an ethnic minority and have to hear that feminism is a white attack on "our men", while "our men" do little for women but groom our girls to be desirable objects to other men within the acceptable in-group.
It is exhausting. I wish I was wrong, and that I could rest. But I refuse to give in.
>With additional layers if you are an ethnic minority and have to hear that feminism is a white attack on "our men", while "our men" do little for women but groom our girls to be desirable objects to other men within the acceptable in-group.
Real.
I feel like there's a lot of unaddressed misogyny/internalized misogyny within minority communities that we're not allowed to call out (or get accused of being "white feminists" if we do, and I say this as a woman with an immigrant mom who still has a ton of it), and I genuinely hate this expectation that we're supposed to magically be okay with violent misogyny and male supremacy as long as men from "our" group, or minority men in general, are the ones perpetuating it.
Like, what do they expect us to say? "Yes, King, I'm totally cool with you perpetuating violent misogyny and male supremacy towards me and treating me like subhuman garbage as long as you're from a similar group as me. I love being your unquestioning, submissive doormat!!!111 <3333"
I'm not. Lmfao. All men, even the most downtrodden and marginalized, are absolutely in love with hierarchies. Even oppressed men are more concerned with replacing and/or joining their oppressors than they are with genuinely uplifting and liberating women from the same group(s) who experience the same hardship.
Not even just with race, but I remember reading about how homeless women also have to deal with increased risk of assault from homeless men as well.
Yes, all of this. And in a 4B context this is also how THEY are the ones doing all the work to make the arguments for the movement.
I am Jewish and there is a great deal of cultural practise that we could discuss in a very selective way where it sounds amazing. It sounds like a feminist utopia.
But that charitable reading simply doesn't match the reality: men will eagerly reach for any tool to justify their exploitation of women and the absolute lowest man is convinced he is better than the best women.
I remember when tumblr discovered Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza's work and tried adopting her coinage "kyriarchy" as intersectionality+. It is a useful concept because it is able to account for and describe a hypothetical(🙄) scenario where men claim to have rejected patriarchy and extracted themselves from it, and yet have recreated a hieratical system outside of it which somehow still places women as subservient.
But she called prostitution violence against women, so recommending or referencing her work became a red flag.
I was saying that among what I would describe the mainstream strands of pseudo-feminism that utterly dominate discussion of women's history and rights, the way she speaks about prostitution (thousands of years of exploitation) became an excuse to reject all of her work and shun anyone mentioning it.
I used to be friends with a gay man of Indian descent and he was one of the most misogynistic (and classist) men I’ve ever met. I was in denial because of his identity but if he cloaked his hatred in “white women” he was able to go absolutely nuts. He lost his job and raged against white women who were being hired on, never against unqualified white men. He’d also say “bitch” all the time. I started to extract myself from him when he downplayed the sexual harassment I faced at work and said it was equal to the time his woman boss rubbed his arm when he was wearing a velvet suit coat. His comments against racialized women were snide but much less overt.
I have known men who were dumb jock types who were markedly less misogynistic than he was. That’s how bad he was.
In a lot of countries it’s becoming increasingly difficult to live by yourself. In Canada I’m convinced that a lot of the powers that be are happy to see the housing crisis worsen as it makes women living alone or leaving shitty men even more difficult and damn near impossible at a low income.
A lot of them are delusional and think they’re going to be the „exception“ and find their dream guy who doesn’t hate them and won’t do them wrong.
It is agony to KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that your parents will always give your brother a free pass while shackling you with double standards.
It is agony to KNOW without a shadow of a doubt you have to work three time as hard to get half the recognition your mediocre male peers get for doing a half-assed job because you were born a girl.
It is agony to KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that people will always take a cis male's word over yours and the consequences of that ranges from having your ideas stolen to being blamed for your brother's misdeeds because he said you did it to being victim-blamed by your family and society when you experience domestic violence or rape.
And for many women, it is just easier to bow to the patriarchy and live within its confines with some crumbs of power while taking out their frustrations on other women than to face the truth and start smashing the patriarchy.
My favorite quote of hers, one that is literally always in the back of my mind, is this one:
”Women live with those who oppress them, sleep with them, have their children — we are tangled, hopelessly it seems, in the gut of the machinery and way of life which is ruinous to us.” Andrea Dworkin, Woman Hating, 1974
The male-centred women who marry and give birth are in a bubble of superiority, even when their role causes postpartum depression, even when their husbands hit them; when they are cheated on while pregnant or worse. They still think they won (I guess). It’s a defence mechanism that can’t be permeated. They received the validation of a man deciding they are worth it, even when that decision is only based on how fit that woman is to serve the man, for life. We 4B women are just the loser childless cat ladies that no man wanted according to their worldview. They have to believe this or their toiling and suffering under their chosen male would be for nothing. How could she cope with knowing that she gave her entire worth—her entire LIFE—over to someone else, when she didn’t ever have to? It would force women to make a decision, and they would rather stay where they are as a superior woman than step away disillusioned and face the actual pain they endured from men. She can’t even speak it.
I'm nearing 40 and I've never felt this agony. The only agony I've ever felt is when my female loved ones (or just women in general) are going through it because of a man. I'm actively working on processing this trigger because it does hurt so much but there's nothing to be done about it because with the average woman, dick always wins and nothing will change.
Because it would be so much easier if things like genuine feminism or the 4B movement were wrong, and happiness will come if only you try harder to be a small and compliant girl. The same reason recuperationist strains of feminism are so much more popular: they ask no change of you except to give into what society was already pressuring you to do.
And, yeah, that feminist consciousness is agony. With additional layers if you are an ethnic minority and have to hear that feminism is a white attack on "our men", while "our men" do little for women but groom our girls to be desirable objects to other men within the acceptable in-group.
It is exhausting. I wish I was wrong, and that I could rest. But I refuse to give in.
>With additional layers if you are an ethnic minority and have to hear that feminism is a white attack on "our men", while "our men" do little for women but groom our girls to be desirable objects to other men within the acceptable in-group.
Real.
I feel like there's a lot of unaddressed misogyny/internalized misogyny within minority communities that we're not allowed to call out (or get accused of being "white feminists" if we do, and I say this as a woman with an immigrant mom who still has a ton of it), and I genuinely hate this expectation that we're supposed to magically be okay with violent misogyny and male supremacy as long as men from "our" group, or minority men in general, are the ones perpetuating it.
Like, what do they expect us to say? "Yes, King, I'm totally cool with you perpetuating violent misogyny and male supremacy towards me and treating me like subhuman garbage as long as you're from a similar group as me. I love being your unquestioning, submissive doormat!!!111 <3333"
I'm not. Lmfao. All men, even the most downtrodden and marginalized, are absolutely in love with hierarchies. Even oppressed men are more concerned with replacing and/or joining their oppressors than they are with genuinely uplifting and liberating women from the same group(s) who experience the same hardship.
Not even just with race, but I remember reading about how homeless women also have to deal with increased risk of assault from homeless men as well.
Yes, all of this. And in a 4B context this is also how THEY are the ones doing all the work to make the arguments for the movement.
I am Jewish and there is a great deal of cultural practise that we could discuss in a very selective way where it sounds amazing. It sounds like a feminist utopia.
But that charitable reading simply doesn't match the reality: men will eagerly reach for any tool to justify their exploitation of women and the absolute lowest man is convinced he is better than the best women.
I remember when tumblr discovered Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza's work and tried adopting her coinage "kyriarchy" as intersectionality+. It is a useful concept because it is able to account for and describe a hypothetical(🙄) scenario where men claim to have rejected patriarchy and extracted themselves from it, and yet have recreated a hieratical system outside of it which somehow still places women as subservient.
But she called prostitution violence against women, so recommending or referencing her work became a red flag.
What do you mean? Please explain how prostitution isn’t against women?
I was saying that among what I would describe the mainstream strands of pseudo-feminism that utterly dominate discussion of women's history and rights, the way she speaks about prostitution (thousands of years of exploitation) became an excuse to reject all of her work and shun anyone mentioning it.
I stand with you my sister. We are a tribe of belligerent women and we will never give in.
I used to be friends with a gay man of Indian descent and he was one of the most misogynistic (and classist) men I’ve ever met. I was in denial because of his identity but if he cloaked his hatred in “white women” he was able to go absolutely nuts. He lost his job and raged against white women who were being hired on, never against unqualified white men. He’d also say “bitch” all the time. I started to extract myself from him when he downplayed the sexual harassment I faced at work and said it was equal to the time his woman boss rubbed his arm when he was wearing a velvet suit coat. His comments against racialized women were snide but much less overt.
I have known men who were dumb jock types who were markedly less misogynistic than he was. That’s how bad he was.
This is why the real step is to refuse to make more men.Â
this is the key.
egg-based reproduction avoids conceiving them entirely and we ought to fund the ever loving shit out of itÂ
Most people don't like the discomfort of doing hard things.
Dworkin is missed
This hit home :( really is the flip side to “ignorance is bliss”
It is absolutely societal brainwashing and gaslighting that keeps women complacent
In a lot of countries it’s becoming increasingly difficult to live by yourself. In Canada I’m convinced that a lot of the powers that be are happy to see the housing crisis worsen as it makes women living alone or leaving shitty men even more difficult and damn near impossible at a low income.
A lot of them are delusional and think they’re going to be the „exception“ and find their dream guy who doesn’t hate them and won’t do them wrong.
It is agony.
It is agony to KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that your parents will always give your brother a free pass while shackling you with double standards.
It is agony to KNOW without a shadow of a doubt you have to work three time as hard to get half the recognition your mediocre male peers get for doing a half-assed job because you were born a girl.
It is agony to KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that people will always take a cis male's word over yours and the consequences of that ranges from having your ideas stolen to being blamed for your brother's misdeeds because he said you did it to being victim-blamed by your family and society when you experience domestic violence or rape.
And for many women, it is just easier to bow to the patriarchy and live within its confines with some crumbs of power while taking out their frustrations on other women than to face the truth and start smashing the patriarchy.
Well this post is exactly why. The cruel reality is too excruciating, especially if you’re straight.
Realizing that you can never find love because men are incapable of it is a hard pill to swallow
My favorite quote of hers, one that is literally always in the back of my mind, is this one:
This is so real
In this sense, isn't becoming aware of rampant misogyny the actual redpill? (The reference from the movie, not the group of loser males online)
They are comfortable with our suffering for their gain.
The male-centred women who marry and give birth are in a bubble of superiority, even when their role causes postpartum depression, even when their husbands hit them; when they are cheated on while pregnant or worse. They still think they won (I guess). It’s a defence mechanism that can’t be permeated. They received the validation of a man deciding they are worth it, even when that decision is only based on how fit that woman is to serve the man, for life. We 4B women are just the loser childless cat ladies that no man wanted according to their worldview. They have to believe this or their toiling and suffering under their chosen male would be for nothing. How could she cope with knowing that she gave her entire worth—her entire LIFE—over to someone else, when she didn’t ever have to? It would force women to make a decision, and they would rather stay where they are as a superior woman than step away disillusioned and face the actual pain they endured from men. She can’t even speak it.
I'm nearing 40 and I've never felt this agony. The only agony I've ever felt is when my female loved ones (or just women in general) are going through it because of a man. I'm actively working on processing this trigger because it does hurt so much but there's nothing to be done about it because with the average woman, dick always wins and nothing will change.
Ignorance is bliss
she's not wrong
it's a little jarring to understand how fundamentally inhumane a male-led society is to women and girlsÂ
you are trained to ignore and accept it as normal
Maybe because they want to have kids, sex, and marriage?