I’ve come to notice a deep set fear in women to express themselves. After being enlightened by 4b I find it easier to feel less social shame in public spaces. But I notice a lingering fear of being embarrassed and judged in me and other women that runs DEEP.
Today I saw my favorite musicians live, and then went to an afterparty. I don’t drink because of choice, and I think everyone can do what they want. However I was very in the mood, and was enjoying the music to my fullest, until- I was interrupted multiple times by different people who said the following:
“How can you enjoy this without a drop of alcohol? I could never”. And besides the judgement, I still felt ashamed. I am also an artist but that feeling of shame always wins no matter how hard I try.
This shame comes from conditioning: I know this because I have observed it form, but also the way us women are made to feel guilty and shameful about our mere existence. Only women made this comment. I’ve noticed in majority of the time, women have a hard time letting themselves free. They care about everything from looks to their behaviour, always in worry that they’re imperfect.
Men on the other hand, do not care. They seem to have little reservations and held backs when it comes to social gatherings.
This shame is so deep rooted and learned, I believe, that it even proceeds to stop women from achieving their full potential and goals. Myself, I can’t make art, be social, market myself and pursue my dreams all the time.
I can’t bring myself to orgasm because my mind blocks me out of my own body. I can’t enjoy without comparing myself to others. I can’t put myself out there cause I’m ashamed.
How can women break free from this? How do we start to simply accept living and feeling the moment with no sense of patriarchal shame?
As anything gendered, it boils down to sex.
Men don't care because their desirability doesn't hinge on how much they are pleasing to look at and because any sexual subtext puts them in the dominant role. Women become self-conscious in order to have some desirability. And we shrink to protect their personal space, dignity and safety.
Say a woman is at a crowded place next to a random dude. If he decides to be spacious within a socially acceptable range (that is, not outright harassing, just menspreading and taking up space) she usually has to shrink away. If she doesn't, the guy won't back out, which means the two bodies will probably be touching. This means embracing the possibility that the man is getting sexual gratification out of this touch.
So when a woman starts acting freely, her bodily freedom takes on a different meaning from male freedom. Being expansive as a woman is treated as having no boundaries and effectively puts your body at the disposal of predatory and demeaning male gaze. This is where we start to hear "I just don't care", "I won't change because of men, I just ignore them". Obliviousness, however, doesn't change the power dynamics we are subjected to. And the more acute a woman's awareness of power dynamics, the harder it's to allow it to happen passively.
So, what can we do to actually achieve more freedom? We can decide to sacrifice being likable and attractive in order to achieve more freedom and comfort. That's the patriarchal catch. Men don't have to choose between these two. This double bind is the most important part of the mechanism, and we need to fully understand this mechanism and it's implications if we are going to tackle the issue.
For example, you say:
>I can’t bring myself to orgasm because my mind blocks me out of my own body. I can’t enjoy without comparing myself to others. I can’t put myself out there cause I’m ashamed.
In these phrases something is missing: the reason why you are blocked out of your own body, the reason why you compare yourself and the reason why you are ashamed. The real culprit is absent. This creates the illusion that the issue lies in your bad relationship to your body, in your comparison mindset, in your shame.
What's actually going on is that you have never been given the support every man receives to embody pleasure in a self-serving way. The moment you start acting like this, many men will not deal well with it. You have almost no role models for this confident self-serving feminine attitude.
You compare yourself because you are being constantly compared by men to other women. That's just a normal reaction to being treated as disposable and detachable body parts.
You feel ashamed to put yourself out there because you intuitively know "out there" we aren't treated right.
So cut yourself some slack. Put the blame where it belongs. Men aren't more carefree people, they are just allowed to be carefree. Women aren't neurotic, we are socially coerced into limiting ourselves.
Edit: Grammar. Thanks for the award!
Fantastic comment, thank you. This recontextualized some of my past experiences.
Nice! I kinda developed this thinking pattern for the "you need to work on your insecurities" snap back we hear a lot.
Liking yourself despite what the world does to us is an achievement I deeply admire and strive for. But when others come into the mix, that's where things get iffy. We should feel secure when we are actually safe. Feigning security and confidence while being devalued might work as an emotional shield, but does nothing to change the conditions women are subjected to. And we cannot expect all women to rise above what the environment does to us.
Yes. And it’s worth noting that often when other women say “How can you enjoy this without a drop of alcohol? I could never”, they’re (perhaps subconsciously… perhaps not) policing you, desperately trying to yank you back into your designated role. It’s almost a panic response masked as passive-aggressive faint praise. Not easy to shrug off.
Yes, it is. I can imagine one odd person might be genuinely admired and comment this in a self-loathing way, but multiple people commenting the same thing surely points to something else going on for these women.
Fair enough for us, but many other women seem to really struggle with it.
Absolutely. It's a widespread issue. Most of us (me included) need to actively work on it.
Such a good comment, please make a post about this! I noticed this at the beginning of puberty - men absolutely despise autistic and/or gender non-conforming women and are very, very overtly cruel about this - if you're not stereotypically feminine you don't have any sex appeal and are excluded or abused accordingly. Social anxiety and depression, low self-esteem, eating disorders - neuroses in general - are almost like hair shirts women must wear in penance for not being palatable to men.
To be honest, I only figured out how this all works when I moved out of the male gaze spotlight.
It happened because I noticed my (male) partners were always occupying positions of power in sex and romance. I then started to try new ways to escape the submissive/follower/subservient roles and realized it always meant stepping out of femininity. As I switched between feminine and non-feminine behavior, the positive/negative reactions were stark. It's a clever disciplining mechanism. One that in cruelty goes beyond mere "lookism", because women's sexual validity in patriarchy is engineered to undermine our autonomy and freedom. This creates deep psychic wounds, I believe. It feels like a violation of some human core I don't even know how to talk about yet.
But the positive/negative reinforcement, that's the trap femininity represents: on the surface it's just random traits with negative value artificially attributed to them. We hear it like "nothing that's feminine is bad, it's only seen as bad because it's associated with women". But when these traits start interacting with masculinity, they start to produce a power imbalance that tips to the advantage of the masculine part. It's hard to say how much this comes from the actual traits and how much is just negative talk.
I personally believe what men like in women are things that limit our scope of action and sphere of influence. That it's not as simple as feminine=bad. A lot of what ends up being pushed onto women as feminine would undermine anyone dealing with these predicaments.
Take for example how women have been allotted less food historically many times. A weakened complexion and less appetite become "feminine". It's negative not because it's associated with women, but because it hurts the people who are made to behave like this and makes it easier for others to exert power over us.
Some other stuff like, say, makeup, depend on context to become an issue for women. They are not inherently sexist, but can be turned into unmistakably sexist within certain conditions that can't be challenged individually.
Damn I can't seem to stop rambling. Just a couple of thoughts your comment brought up for me, thanks for chiming in!
ETA: I did not know about hair shirts. Mind boggling and such a perfect way of describing it.
Your comments in this thread are so incredibly helpful to me. Just found this sub. I think this is where I belong. 🫂💖
Welcome!
This is one of the most insightful replies I’ve seen on Reddit. I wish I had an award to give you.
Oh, I really appreciate that, thanks!
The secret is to get comfortable with being disliked.
Im a very confident person. People react to a confident woman with distain (who do you think you are), admiration, and frankly, fear.
Its ridiculous because im just chilling, but women are suppose to apologize for their own existence while nurturing men.
And men get real nervous when a woman isnt actively coddling them.
I say this, because in safe situations, I confront people, in public. I have nothing to lose confronting someone that I dont want a relationship with.
"Why did you say that?" "Why do you think that?" Goes a long way.
A lot of people criticize has a means to control-they want to know that they have the emotional power to make you feel bad.
Turn that on them. Make them explain their actions.
Geez, I see myself in you and see you in myself. Could have written similar. 4B sister 💛💖!! Late to the post reply thread, but wanted to agree with your comment.
From What I can see, It just boils down to how much you value mans opinions(and money to a certain extent). Men may not give af about women's opinions, but most men want the love and admiration of other men. They try to get with as many women as possible to impress other men. They try to make as much money as possible, to impress other men. They get expensive cars so that they can be "That GUY!" to other men. Men will get with a woman they do not even like, so that she can uplift his status as man, to other MEN!
The same thing applies to women who allow their actions to be controlled by external sources. You have to value the opinion of those people highly for it to affect you. If someone told me they could never not drink at a party repeatedly. I would not take it personally. That is very much a THEM thing. (Side Note: If this happens in the future, try asking them why)
On the looks topic. I know when it comes to beauty/ makeup discourse online, Women will swear left and right they only partake in beauty rituals for themselves or to impress other women and while I am sure that is true. Multiple reasons can be true at once. IRL when I find myself in female only environments a lot of the women I know become a lot more relaxed. For example, they feel very comfy walking around w/o makeup, messy hair, clothing that does not highlight the feminine figure. Now when they have to leave the environment (Where they might run across a man) or a man enters the environment, then that is when they feel the need to doll themselves up.
I grew up in environment that heavily encouraged me to cater to men. How did I break out of it? By taking the time out and thinking about it for a moment. I realized that a lot of my actions where based on trying to get man to likely me. Then I thought about it and realized man ain't shit. My mother was a "good woman". She always got dolled up every day, remained skinny after 3 kids (by starving herself), always kept a hotel level spotless house. Her reward? My abusive father, poverty, traumatized/ estranged children. Her catering to my father got her shit. I have observed similar in many women. My mom was born in a rural area in a low income country. She was pulled out of school cause her family didn't want to waste money on her since she would just get married and it would be a waste. My mother needed to care about the opinions of men for survival! Do the "I could never" comments make a bit more sense?
Once I started to prioritize myself, I became a lot happier. Losing weight to gain the affection of men was horrible fucking motivation to lose weight. it was so bad I was never able to stick to. Exercising to get the adrenaline rush(and keep the depression at bay) and to be able to do cool calisthenics tricks, and to not become a fragile woman in old age was a much better motivator. I actually managed to stick to the process of becoming healthier.
The older and financial secure I get, the less fucks I give.
Keep placing yourself in these social situations and practice relaxing into yourself and enjoying the moment. Practice and experience will help.
I always figured none of these people pay my bills or have any significant role in my life. Why would I let them, their thoughts, or even my own thoughts about their thoughts, impede on my enjoyment.
We only get one life. The less time spent concerned about other's thoughts is more mental energy for caring and about you.
Also, it could have been the crowd. I was dancing at a concert in NY a few months back and nobody was concerned with who was drinking or not. Most people weren't drinking.
I also don't drink much, and I have noticed that sometimes not drinking around others challenges their viewpoints on their own relationship with alcohol. It makes them reflect on the fact that they feel like they need it to socialize. But of course, because drinking is so normalized, the focal point is usually on the person opting out. I was just adding this point tangentially, but I agree with what you said about women not usually allowing themselves to feel free socially either. Like most women need a bit of alcohol to turn off the male observer voice in their own mind just to have fun, sad.
Sweetie, that’s therapy level shame. You need professional help to relearn how to just enjoy being yourself. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Many of us need it. I wish there were easy ways to negotiate and heal this. But know you CAN heal from whatever (waves at everything) of all this put you in this head space. And that it is a psyche wound you can grow through, it won’t stop everything forever.
I am in therapy lol! Also note that I am not a westerner, I come from a heavily patriarchal Balkan society where women defend objectification and feminism is seen as evil.
Low levels of eduaction are also a thing. It’s significantly harder to heal in these environments.