Our community is dedicated first and foremost to women living a 4B lifestyle. Anyone wishing to participate here must agree to conduct themselves accordingly. This means behaving in alignment with the "Four B's" of the movement.
1. No Dating Men
- This is not the place to ask for dating advice or to bemoan anything related to the dating scene. Relationships with men are to be spoken about for discussion purposes only.
2. No Sex With Men
- There will be no promotion to engage in sexual relationships with men nor will any umprompted comments from non-4B women about their sexual relationships be tolerated.
- 4B does not condone pornography, surrogacy, prostitution, polygamy, BDSM/kink culture or the explicit sexualization of women including in "art".
3. No Marriage To Men
- Anyone who isn't 4B will also refrain from mentioning any boyfriends, husbands or male romantic partners.
4. No Childbirth
- Part of 4B is the rejection of motherhood and the unique oppression women face when they're expected to maintain a husband, family and home. This is not the place to discuss raising children or motherhood.
- 4B supports full reproductive autonomy including sterilization, birth control and abortions.
Users are now required to assign themselves flair indicating that they are 4B, 4B Allies, or if they are still Exploring if a 4B lifestyle is for them. Users without flair will no longer be able to post topics or leave comments on posts.
By assigning yourself flair, you are agreeing to participate within this sub according to the sub's rules and by 4B's tenets. Breaking this agreement thereafter might see you permanently removed from the community.
For any further questions about flair or regarding what is and isn't appropriate for a 4B space, please contact the moderation team.
Because we keep receiving mail about it--
To add user flair on Reddit, go to the subreddit's page, tap the three-dot menu icon (on the app) or look for "Community Options" or a "Flair" button in the sidebar (on desktop), and select "Change user flair" or "Edit flair".
4B and nobody is going to fucking change my mind.
My Asian family tried but they learned that it's like running flat out at 100/mph into a reinforced brick wall and that I have sealed off one branch of the family for good by refusing to voluntarily subject myself to pregnancy and childbirth and single motherhood (because even in marriage, most women are single parents anyway given how useless the Failure Gender spouse is).
Cis het men who tried every now and then were all told to fuck off. They weren't happy about it but they can just sit with their all big feelings.
Beautiful. You're amazing for sticking to your boundaries and prioritizing yourself. I knew from a young age I'd be the same way and have told many people in my life to fuck off because of it, and it's not easy. Much love and peace to you sister.
The worst is when you tell cis het men to fuck off and they just won't fuck off. They will pester you until you get absolutely BRUTAL about it. And then they start verbally abusing you (or worse).
The next member of the Failure Gender who spits out at me that I'm "not that pretty anyway, you hag!" is gonna get told: "Oh, so even an ugly woman doesn't want you too, eh?"
Done.
So tired of telling people, “Yes, I know, not all MEHn.”
Because it is enough of them.
It was also extremely frustrating to see women calling themselves 4B but then talking about casual ongoing hook ups and relations with men multiple times over in the comment section.
Not all bears will rip my face off, but I'm not taking any chances to find out because all bears CAN harm me pretty easily.
Hey Mod Team, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to user feedback and making this a space that prioritizes the voices of actual 4B women who genuinely walk the walk.
On a side note, it makes me happy to see this sub is also anti-surrogacy/surrogacy-critical.
Agree on the surrogacy thing. It just happens way too often that when talking about sex work or porn people label any criticism as „not sex positive“, completely ignoring that it’s about exploitation and consent. (At least from my understanding, still learning a lot.)
And the same goes for surrogacy, it’s the same reason I’m against that because you just can’t guarantee consent as soon as there’s money (or other forms of power) involved.
After reading more about surrogacy, I realized that it's basically people paying a woman (usually a disadvantaged one who needs money) to be an living incubator where her body carries most or all of the risks.
I even remember reading about some surrogacy cases where the people who paid for the baby refused to take care of it after the surrogate mother gave birth because they didn't like something about it (such as getting a girl instead of a boy), and the surrogate mothers were stuck both with long-term medical complications/changes and a baby they weren't equipped to care for.
Yeah it’s basically the same thing, you buy „consent“ for something that people just can’t consent to when they’re desperate. And that makes it perfect for exploitation, which is why I think both can’t ever be ethical.
It’s interesting that as soon as it’s about men’s bodies too, not just women’s, there isn’t even a question about it. Take organ donation for example. You can’t just buy someone else’s kidney, no matter how much you’re willing to spend. Because we know that people can’t consent to something like that if there’s money/power involved. Organ donation can simply never be ethically transactional and the same should be true for other kinds of selling your body.
"After reading more about surrogacy, I realized that it's basically people paying a woman (usually a disadvantaged one who needs money) to be an living incubator where her body carries most or all of the risks." - I'm being serious now, what libfems are trying to sell it as? I always thought about it in this way.
When I was growing up, I was neutral about surrogacy because I'd only been exposed to positive feel-good media portrayals of it, but when I started reading more about it and the complications that come with it, it's hard not to see how exploitative and seedy it is.
In Poland I think there was never a good portrayal of it (probably because we are mostly catholic country and it's seen as child abandonment by general population), so our experience probably differs because of that.
This sub is as perfect as it gets, given that it's a movement born out of radical feminism, many here carry those beliefs like anti-surrogacy. And no man taking over our voices, neither any woman trying to bring in one as well (it's not accepted here, that's what makes this sub an all-rounder).
Done! Thank you for this post! I knew the rules (I've been here since 9k members) and I know you talk about them a lot, but since community grew some people started getting loose around them, and that's not the point - we aren't a community for everybody, and that's fine.
>we aren't a community for everybody, and that's fine.
Honestly. I feel like people throw around words like "gatekeeping" and "exclusionary" a lot without stopping to think, "hey, maybe this space just simply isn't for me, and that's okay, because I know it could still benefit some people" instead of forcibly trying to bend and warp the rules of a group that isn't meant for them.
Thank you. Flair updated.
Done! Because I’m “newer” to finding 4B I can be honest and define myself as exploring. But I’ve been following the 4 tenets before even knowing there was a name for it.
Finally! Something I’m good at
Flair updated! Since I'm in the beginning of discovering myself in the 4B space, I'll put exploring. But no doubt, choosing 4B has been the best choice that I've made for myself and my mental health.
congrats! Yeah I just am way more stable too.
Finally, this change was very needed.
Done
Just flexing the new flair
Great development, thanks for this mods.
This is perfect, thank you mods! I think this will lead to more meaningful discussions and less derailing in our threads. I also appreciate the detail in these written tenets!
Thank you for implementing this, mods! It’s helpful to know when you’re discussing with others where they are on the 4B spectrum.
Yes exactly, sometimes I've been caught in a back-and-forth and it's only until way later that I realize, hey we don't even agree on the basic tenets, there's no use arguing about the details.
Flair there?
It is, fellow ally 😻
Flairs everywhere, woohoo!
Done and thank you! As the space grows people need to be aware of what it is and what it isn't.
Hell yes, ty. Bruh, as a lesbian the amount of even women that think Sir Magic Dick the Emotionally Stable is gonna ride in on his unicorn or that a should settle for Randy random is incredible. Why tf would I destroy my peace and body for someone that thinks personal hygiene is gay???
Been "exploring" 4b for a few years and I'm finding some interesting treasures! (peace of mind and time for hobbies) 🫡
Done. Married to another woman, and neither of us have any use for men or kids. 🙂
Flair added.
Thank you mods
Done! Just found this community recently and still learning so even though I’m practicing the tenets I’ve put exploring for now :)
Thank you so much!
Done.
Thank you for creating a space where 4B women can gather! I have updated my flair.
yess thank you this sub is my safe space online jaja
Done!! 6 years going strong here
NiCEE fLAirrrrr, they look cute sitting under usernames lol
Inb4 men sneak in and start flairing themselves 4B because "akshually tEcHnIcAlLy they're living a 4B lifestyle"... You know they simply won't be able to resist being "left out" of an actual women-only sub lol
For future reference: anyone who notices men posting here should report them for breaking rule one of the sub and mods will remove them.
All done! But am I really 4B if I've never really started ever doing any of those, because my teenage self already knew patriarchy was vicious? ;)
(I know I am! Just wanted to share my story <3)
Yes, you are.
love ya
I still don't think mothers, especially boy moms can ever be 4B. I think a lot of mothers are going to be mad about that distinction. No, you can't bring your sons and your alliance with them or the males you procreated with into the 4B movement. Mothers will always advocate for their baby daddies, even if they have no sons, because they want the father to succeed (at the expense of other women) to help their children. Mothers can never be 4B because they rely on males and patriarchal systems very much.
Obviously mothers can’t be 4B, not having children is one of the 4Bs.
I agree 100%. It's actually really simple, the 4B movement....., until mothers and libfems get a hold of it and try to destroy the one space single-by-choice, childfree women have.
💯
Literally no one is saying mothers can’t be feminists. They can even be 4B allies, sure. They just can’t be 4B.
Even women won’t let non-male partnered childless women have this ONE Thing, apparently.
People need to understand 4B is a lifestyle & a political choice. It’s not just a fun club, where everyone should get a membership, for goodness‘ sake.
Words mean things. Show some respect for the Korean founders of this movement.
Honest question: if a woman who maybe experienced coercive childbirth (think raised in a Christian conservative environment) and has now decided to embrace 4B but has children, can she be 4B?
Does this change if the children were female only?
Does this change if the children are adults and she has no contact with the father?
The first woman to tell me about 4B was a divorced mother of four (actually my professor). Maybe I mistakenly considered she was 4B since she spoke about it positively and her life did seem to be disengaged from men as far as I could tell.
Anyway, I was under the impression 4B was a “moving forward from this moment on” thing rather than a movement that took into account past behavior/choices.
Women who previously had children could potentially live a 4B lifestyle after those children are grown and independent.
Reposting my comment to another user below: "The argument is that mothers are incapable of centering themselves and other women if they're also mothers, because their children are who they center most (as they should). Because of this, mothers often cannot afford to decenter men whether that be a romantic partner, co-parent, or even male figures in society due to economic factors in supporting their child. This is all before even getting into the unfair distribution of labor that goes into maintaining a home and family connections, immediate and extended, for the child's benefit."
Once those children are grown and no longer the sole focus of the mother in question, there's a much better chance of her being able to live the fully male-free and woman-centered lifestyle that 4B entails. So in that sense it is a "moving forward" sort of movement. But a woman who is actively raising her children also cannot "move forward" while doing so.
They could live a 4B lifestyle, sure, but they still wouldn‘t qualify as 4B. By definition, in order to be 4B, you have to be childfree.
You cannot be 4B and a mother. One of the 4 Bs is not having children.
Unlike past relationships with men, once you have a child, that child is there for life.
I'm curious if this also applies to lesbian mothers. I am a lesbian myself (not a mother however).
One of the 4 Bs literally is not having children, so the answer is obviously, yes, it applies.
You can be a mother and a feminist. You can’t be a mother and 4B. It literally breaks the definition.
[deleted]
Incorrect, sperm or not makes no difference. By definition 4B means being childfree. It’s not about sperm.
If you say so. 🤷♀️
Being child free is not a 4B requirement. The sub may not want to discuss parenthood but it's a woman's choice to decide if she wants to raise a family or not (while being man free).
The Korean feminists who originally started the 4B movement were expressly clear about it being a child free thing. "No Childbirth" means no childbirth.
The argument is that mothers are incapable of centering themselves and other women if they're also mothers, because their children are who they center most (as they should). Because of this, mothers often cannot afford to decenter men whether that be a romantic parter, co-parent, or even male figures in society due to economic factors in supporting their child. This is all before even getting into the unfair distribution of labor that goes into maintaining a home and family connections, immediate and extended, for the child's benefit.
Part of 4B is removing women's reproductive ability from a society that seeks to abuse it. Continuing to produce offspring for that system only feeds it.
Whether a woman wants to become a mother or not is entirely her prerogative. A woman can still be a mother and a feminist. It just wouldn't make sense for said woman to also call herself 4B.
thats crazy I was told the exact opposite via moderator and that moms can be 4b. Seems you guys fundamentally disagree on how to mod this subreddit.
I don’t mean to be pedantic and I truly have no dog in the fight because I’m 4B and don’t plan to have kids. But do you think that applies to just biological mothers or any mother? Like are foster mothers or adoptive mothers included in this as well? Because these mothers wouldn’t be giving birth, nor would they be contributing to the system by producing offspring. I was under the impression that 4B was just no childbirth, not “no parenting” if that makes sense.
What are you talking about, not having children is LITERALLY One of the 4 Bs.
You are being disrespectful to the very core of the movement and its founders by claiming one can have children and still be 4B. You can’t.
Then why is it listed as one of the 4 tenets?
Done!
BBBB
👍👍
Flair updated. thanks!
A divorced mother who is now exploring 4B - is this a movement with room for her, if she’s not interested in remarrying or having more children?
Or is the rejection of motherhood retroactive and anyone already with kids isn’t welcome?
Updated my flair. I’m not 4B because I had a child at 19 years old. But I support all women who choose to live this way and since having my daughter I have encouraged every woman I know to refrain from having children. As much as I love my kids it’s counterproductive. My life will never be separated from a man now. I have been celibate for the past year, no sex no dating and really feel no desire to build any relationships with men.