Orwell's dystopia- grim, materially impoverished, sexually repressed, ruled by an all-seeing totalitarian elite dominating masses without any hierarchy. Running on the energy of hate. "Imagine a boot coming down on a human face- forever." In H. Marcuse's terms: " totalitarian repression. "
A. Huxley's dystopia- dominated by an elite of "Alphas" living by the same organized hierarchical hedonism as the masses; " amused to death" by sex liberated and commercialized, abundant mass diversion, escapism and soporific/ hallucinogenic drug use. In H. Marcuse's terms: " totalitarian repressive de- sublimation".
Which dystopia are we closest to? What elements of each do we see in our world?
Brave New World also has a engineered lower class, servant caste. People intentionally made dumber and fearful of nature and education. When John tries to "release," them they are as confused as cattle and only want to return to work to acquire more soma.
That seems worse in some ways. You are able to at least commit thought crime in 1984. In Brave New World it's been conditioned out of you in utero.
I wonder if the rulers in 1984 would appreciate that setup. Or maybe their point is to contort everyone into agreeing with them.
I also think about the future in The Time Machine with the underground Morlocks who run machinery and the above ground, pampered Eloi. But in that case it seems like the Morlocks may be in charge.
As to what we are closer to? There are certainly parts of the world where 1984 has been or continues to be achieved. I most of the world we don't have the harsh class divisions of Brave New World but I don't see much hope for those born in to live near mountains of trash, picking though the rubble to find enough to trade for food. Those people are our earth's Epsilons.
Hard disagree on BNW being in any way worse than 84. Yes, your conditioned from vitro to be content with your position. That's a pretty fucked up loss of freedom. But so is being tortured into compliance for not hitting the ever moving goal posts of what constitutes right thinking.
The books make their positions pretty clear. Which would you rather have? State sponsored weed and guaranteed employment, or a boot stomping on the face of humanity, forever?
Yes, The Time Machine offers what must be one of the first dystopias! Before that, imaginative writers- dozens of them- could take the idea of Utopia seriously. In the 20th C, dystopian fiction totally crowded out utopian. As the dangerous downside of new tech of production was revealed in peace and war.
Time Machine: Morlocks live in the dark underground and are worked like slaves. Their one pleasure is getting to...consume the tender flesh of the Eloi.
Eloi live in total leisure in the sunshine, enjoying goods and services made in underground factories by the Morlocks. Totally unaware that they will be periodically stupified by an "air raid siren" and march off to be harvested by the Morlocks for dinner.
Is that an ecosystem or someone, somewhere, somehow was able to manipulate their way into having the other "race" working for them?
In the novel, it developed out of a war. Aerial war led to defence by going into underground shelters, at the sound of an alarm. The Morlocks developed out of the industrial working class, living kind of underground, buried lives of all work. The Eloi developed out of the leisured working class. In the England of HG Wells time, those two classes were very separate- so in Welles' imagination, they grew into separate "races".
Didn’t O’Brien mentioned the Party wanted people to grow within lab tubes so they can control humanity? They only allow children because it was the only way to grow population. It saddens me that children in 1984 are nothing but inhuman nascent machines of the Party
Well said. My comment that I'm about to write for OP is going to look like I'm an Epsilon lol.
1984 is more overtly terrifying (man the rats scene haunted my youth) but I always found Brave New World more existentially terrifying. Its harder to argue against, the people in that dystopia aren't even unhappy and the ruling class don't even believe there is anything wrong with what they're doing.
I need to reread bnw though, because I recently reread 1984 and realized I found the doublethink and absurdity far more nightmarish than the brutal surveillance and control. The fact that big brother isn't actually an all powerful efficient control base, its Winston's and O'Briens all the way down, and endless circlejerk of doublethink
I’m only a few chapters into bnw so can’t comment just yet. Just wanted to share that I was pleasantly surprised to learn in the introduction that Huxley was Orwell’s teacher in university
That's news to me and a real interesting fact ! I knew AH was born earlier, from famous egg- head family. He published early ("Chrome Yellow", Point- Counterpoint, others in 1920's , then 50+ works, all kinds, up till death. )
Orwell, from modest family in govt. service. An atheist leftist with democratic socialist and anarchist leanings. Journalist and essayist, wrote semi-good early novels, no big splash...Then, in 1940's : great essays, Animal Farm and 1984.
Huxley, an agnostic who got deep into philosophy and then moved toward eastern mysticism. Became famous " celebrity intellectual". One of last books was very early treatment of "ecology".
AH was blessed with better health, lived longer! Poor Orwell had serious TB and- shot in the neck ! fighting fascism in rhe Spanish Civil War. Died way too young....
In common- both very concerned about "future of humanty", role of technology, tyrannical ideologies...
They're products of different times too: Brave New World was written in the late 1920s/early 1930s just as Hitler and Stalin were coming into power. 1984 was written in the late 1940s after the world experienced the horrors of both regimes.
In 1920's, the consumer society, jazz, hot dances, saxophones, the New Morality and the New Woman, Hollywood- all that - was still new, and in Britain often seen as an exciting American trend. So Huxley like many creatives was fascinated ( and terrified) by that and the Idea of Endless Horizons of Amusement.
By 1945-50, all that was not only not "new", but must have seemed like a sick joke. They had seen- V-2 rockets, the Holocaust, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, - 50+ million killed....dozens of bombed out cities... millions of homeless and stateless war refugees..
Kinda embarrassed to admit that intro also taught me Orwell was his pseudonym 😂 if I remember after I finish bnw I’ll come back and let you know my thoughts on your question
In BNW you'll read about a game called: "Centifugal Bumble-puppy"! Involves tossing and catching a ball ....after it goes through a big chrome-plated tower, for some reason. Big crazy fun, and if you aren't amused, you can just pop some Soma for a mellow kaleidoscopic high....
In 1984's Oceania, no centrifugal BP, no Soma , but they do have oily rot-gut gin and small cubes of chocolate with the flavor and texture of chalk. Thank you, Big Brother!
End goal of both systems? CONTROL
I’m pretty sure Orwell never did a day at a uni. He left Eton and went to Burma.
I stand corrected on the word university; Eton is a college. Those words are somewhat used interchangeably in conversation though in practice there is a difference and that’s where my confusion came from.
In the USA, there really isn’t much of a difference between a college and a university. Boston College is actually a university. Most schools become universities because people think there is a difference. In the USA, “Colleges” will sometimes have masters programs.
In the UK Eton College is about the same as a USA High School, although in those days it was quite a good one. Probably still is.
After your comment I thought more about it; I got my associates degree from a college and bachelors from a university, so I thought there was some kind of difference
In the USA we use them that way.
There is Not really a difference at the level of associate or baccalaureate. My baccalaureate was from a “college” that had loads of masters programs. They became a “university” because that was the trend going on 50 years ago.
Most “colleges” over the last 50 years have become “universities” because of a perceived difference. But there isn’t a difference in the USA.
When I got to grad school at a big bad university I had hands on experience using instruments because my school was small, where the people from big schools weren’t allowed in the room with the equipment.
Some places in the world people are living like in 1984. Not naming any countries but we all know.
We have a little telescreen staring at ourselves right now in our palms.
Tbh sometimes I think to myself that I wouldn't mind living in BNW at least I'd be happy lol.
The screen in your palm doesnt look back unless you ask it to. And you can put it in your pocket. The screen on Winston's wall could never be turned off.
Rumors fed the fear that BB might be watching all the time, so people curbed themselves. But he wasn't! So- rumors like that could be part of BB's toolbox.
I have no problem identifying North Korea as a BigBrother/ 1984 country.
Yeah that's true. A lot of people have their cameras turned on willingly and post for the world to see daily. You don't even have to have it on and your location can still be found depending on what apps and settings you have. I'm not saying that our phones are literally the same as a telescreen I'm just comparing similarities.
Even spending money is a way of being traced unless you are using cash.
Oh yeah, another similarity we have with BNW is we are conditioned to like and dislike certain things depending on the family we are born into, the time in history we are born in and the bit of land we are born on. I'm from New Zealand and therefore I support the All blacks and watch rugby and we're better than the Wallabies, blah blah blah. But if I was born in Australia it would be the other way around. A lot of people don't even acknowledge this and they literally think that their favourite sports teams are the best but theyre just from the same place as them lol it sounds like I'm a sports hater, I'm not, I'm just using it as an example. Even how some people are born into a religion and they continue living and believing in it without realising that they are only doing it because they were born into it. Again, I'm not hating on religion. Just using it as an example.
If people have themselves on video camera voluntarily...we are far gone. Doing it to ourselves. "Auto- voyeurism" .
Orwell and Huxley would be dumbfounded.
Both honestly. BNW dealt a lot with rampant consumerism and using soma is very close to being on your phone all day. 1984 has the surveillance state, the need to push hate of other people and groups, doubletalk, etc, that's rearing it's ugly head even more currently. We are a mix of both sadly.
Sadly...
Can’t remember who said this but Orwell was worried that people weren’t allowed to read while Huxley was worried people wouldn’t want to read
Sometimes it feels wer closer to bnw but with newspeak lol
Now= BNW plus Newspeak! Double-plus good!
"Newspeak" was one of Orwell's genius inventions. As a sometime journalist, he had strong views on how the language was being tortured and emptied of meaning by the press, politicians...see GO's great essay: "Politics and the English Language".
Idea of Oceania's low, grey standard of living was inspired by both Britain and Soviet Union in the late 40's. Both countries were bombed out from WWII, living with severe shortages, crappy housing, rationing, low mood. Even the chocolate tasted bad! Stalin was better at- ordering people to Cheer Up and jaw your "chocolate" .
They are two ways of describing a same thing
I dont see the systems of the two novels as " the same", but you could say the goals are the same. Goal: allowing an elite to totally control a population.
It’s been a long time since I read BNW and I can’t seem to remember most of it. However, I feel that any society could be only a few bad decisions away from some 1984-ish reality. The scary thing is it could feasibly come from any direction politically (left or right), and initially appear with “good” intentions.
I feel the technological aspect of Ingsoc is overstated, as the tools used to monitor people are mostly symbolic of the oppressive, controlling society. The mindset of watching and judging people to ensure ideological purity (like with Winston’s neighbour’s kids) is terrifying and, as we can easily see, something people are naturally prone towards whether they are in power or not.
Other aspects of 1984 can also be seen daily amongst average people: doublethink and controlling language, political propaganda, rewriting history for political aims.
I’m not saying this means we are living in 1984, but the ingredients are always there, built into the human psyche.
On the other hand, BNW, I imagine, would require a very specific ideology to become reality. While we could point at certain things like hedonism, loss of traditional values, reliance of medication, and “distractions” as real-life examples, the real essence of what makes it a dystopia is, I believe, far more complex. It’s more engineered, deliberate, and (arguably) unnatural.
IDK why but places like r/books have this strange idea that the BNW is closer to our modern day than 1984 which if you've actually read the books you know is kinda bullshit , sure there's a lot of elements but our modern world is far more Orwellian imo
I think its a mix of both and depends a lot on what country you live in.